STG 101: Intro to Shmups - STG panel @ NorCal conventions

[gs68]

Update 4/30: TIME, DATE, AND LOCATION FOR PANEL HAVE BEEN FINALIZED.

Time: Friday, May 27 — 10:00pm ~ 11:00pm
Location: Marriott - Salon 3 (Panels 2)
- Address: 301 South Market Street, San Jose, CA (http://bit.ly/m3rdv2)
Hosted by: Me, JohtoKen, and another friend (she has been on the forums but I don't know her username)

Suggestions and tips on running this panel are still welcome, and although it's clear I don't need to say this, I just wanna say that any requests to show TLBs will be ignored.
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So Aru-san and I are contemplating doing a panel (presentation) on shmups at Fanime this year.

Our goal in general is mainly introducing people to the genre as a whole--I know there's a Touhou panel held every year although it only has a small segment on the games themselves. We want to be mostly about shooting games.

With that in mind, what are some suggestions for content? For those who have gone to conventions (and done panels maybe; panels you hosted don't necessarily have to be shmup panels), any strategies on presentation?

[RNGmaster]

Don't show them stuff on highest difficulty. Should be obvious, but...

[Exarion]

Ensure you show something other than bullet hell. Also, be sure to highlight the hitbox if you do show bullet hell, as well as just what having such a small hitbox means.

[S20-TBL]

Hm, something like this is quite large in scope.

I suggest presenting the history of shmups, both Eastern and Western. A short but concise presentation on this matter will do, but this suggestion is aimed more at showing people what exactly happened to the genre over the decades (starting probably with something like Computer Space or Space War to show how far it's gone), to give them an idea of how it developed and what influence it had on gamers and game developers.

A glimpse into the modern scenario is also recommended. Here are some suggestions (some more obvious than others):

* Who the top movers and shakers are (might want to include the whole descent into the danmaku fad under this)

* The gradual disappearance of the old shmup developers

* The plight of the shmup vs. the modern FPS and other currently popular "next-gen" games, and its current niche status

* The burgeoning indie and doujin scenes (you could call up the topic of the "Euroshmup" here among other things like bringing up Western examples such as Geometry Wars, Soldner-X and Go Beryllium, as well as Japanese doujins like Orange-Juice, Yotsubane, Studio Siesta, etc.)

* And don't be afraid to throw something on the influence of Touhou in there too--after all it did start out as a shmup.

I remember the Japanese devs had something like this 2 years ago and they were all grim on the future prospects in the genre. That's probably because they've either lost their touch, are looking too much inward to even notice the context changes in the gaming market, or both. Here's your chance to rectify that.

EDIT: Deleted my 'full extent of the jam' comment, don't want misunderstandings here.

[Special World]

I'd suggest showing a couple of innovative shooters, personally. Ikaruga and Mars Matrix both have very forward-thinking designs that could draw people in.

I know that I could go on at length why Mars Matrix is the perfect game to get people into scrolling shooters.

[Aru-san]

Don't show them stuff on highest difficulty. Should be obvious, but...

We're certain that we're not going to show highest difficulty content, especially when our goal is to try and help give people an understanding of shoot'em ups, its history, and how they can still be entertaining games to play. We'll still incorporate bullet hell into our presentation, although on more relaxed difficulties (e.g. Crimzon Clover's Simple mode, the Heaven modes on x.x Game Room shmups, etc.), and we'll make sure to explain hitboxes and their significance (as mentioned by Exarion).

Of course, if I'm to capture video demonstrations, I should probably also get a better screen capturing program as well lest our viewers want really laggy video. Then again, the hitbox demonstration would take place on a smaller view and will be accompanied by diagram pauses.

I'd suggest showing a couple of innovative shooters, personally. Ikaruga and Mars Matrix both have very forward-thinking designs that could draw people in.

I know that I could go on at length why Mars Matrix is the perfect game to get people into scrolling shooters.

We'll make sure to go through the history of shmups in brief, and maybe showcase a catalogue of games along the way. I'll consider Ikaruga (if not that, Mars Matrix at the very least) for demonstrating some of the design choices that come up in shmups.

[rancor]

refer them to a place where they may legally purchase the titles.

[Aru-san]

refer them to a place where they may legally purchase the titles.

Know of any good sites? I think there's a thread on it, but I'm not really sure...but yeah, we can include links to provide for people that want to legally purchase doujin shmups.

[rancor]

refer them to a place where they may legally purchase the titles.

Know of any good sites? I think there's a thread on it, but I'm not really sure...but yeah, we can include links to provide for people that want to legally purchase doujin shmups.

Check my sig..

[gs68]

Ensure you show something other than bullet hell.

Yeah, I already have a few "classical" shooters in mind, like RayForce.

* And don't be afraid to throw something on the influence of Touhou in there too--after all it did start out as a shmup.

If showing a little Touhou is what it takes to make an attention-grabbing panel, we'll go for it. For people already into TH, maybe we could do a little section on "If you like Touhou games, you might also like these games..."

[njiska]

refer them to a place where they may legally purchase the titles.

Know of any good sites? I think there's a thread on it, but I'm not really sure...but yeah, we can include links to provide for people that want to legally purchase doujin shmups.

Check my sig..

Oh Rancor, your mouth must be getting sore after all the whoring you've been doing lately.

Seriously though I think it's a good idea to introduce them to Doujin's and places they can buy them legally. Rancor's been good so far so he's definitely worth suggesting, however in the interest of impartiality I'd suggest you find two or three competing sites to list as well.

Really if you want to introduce players to the genre you should start with the beginning and work your way through the evolution. Start with Space War, move to Space Invaders, Xevious, Gradius, Raiden, and so on up to today. That will allow you to show how the genre has grown and divided into the the different sub genres.

[ZacharyB]

You might want to discuss what makes shmups fun. Gaming is a social activity these days, and the reason certain games and sites have become so big is because they act as tools people can use to schmooze with their friends (and make new friends).

I see shmups as a little antisocial--spend hours playing at home getting good at them, with no immediate way of sharing or experiencing that hard work with other people. I'm not talking about Youtube here; most newer shmup replays on Youtube have less than 500 views, even when the replay is spectacular. They're not popular. You'd have to think about selling the shmup genre to these kinds of people by emphasizing the purpose of play: high scores, impress your friends. Maybe it's impossible. Maybe people don't want to be impressed any longer. But I think it would be important to let your audience know why people still do this in 2011.

I recently thought of comparing shmups to sudoku: they're all very similar, so improving your skill at one will carry over that improvement to the next shmup. They're like reflex puzzles.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

As others have already suggested alittle of shmup history is worth mentioning, where you can add a couple of the sub genres that were popular during certain times.

Give them a good picture of how the genre is atm, telling them about Cave, Grev, 360 shmups and the indie / doujin scene. plus tell them where they can get them, IE direct to drive for a few localised doujin shmups like Courious Factory and Rockin Android (although for me in the UK its very hard to find them on the D2D site, cos if i use google or links straight to the games store page, it says its unavailable. The way to find the games is to use the sites search function)

Also I think it might be a good idea to talk about the different sub genres and the different fans that like them. Like whats popular in the west, IE twinstick and euroshmups and Japanese Arcade horis and verts. Im sure theyll already know something about western shmups so tell them (in a way that doesnt make you sound elitist) whats so great about arcade shmups and why they as gamers who might like western shmups should take an intrest in Japanese shooters.

I also feel its very important to educate them in how to play arcade shooters in that because they credit feed it makes the game to easy and cos they dont play with anyother goal in mind other then to mindlessly shoot some shit up (which fps do better for that mindset). Tell them about 1CC play and scoring, informing them that due to the player having a goal and a reason to play the games become more deeper and engrossing to play.

Also tell them a few noob friendly shmups to play where they can play for 1CC and score without the game been overlly difficult. like BWR and genetos or other shmups that have autobomb or shields. plus tell them to upload their scores to leaderboards here and elsewhere and to use superplay vids from sites like you tube.

[RNGmaster]

Work this one in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHhkq7p3Qw

[Blackbird]

I would make a specific mention of shooting games that people can get into and play really easily. Games that are:

1) Available in the US.
2) Available on modern consoles.

Stuff people can go out to the local game store, pick up, and start playing right away. Maybe Raiden IV and Raiden Fighters Aces?

I'd of course also highlight some of the genre's best games.

[Aru-san]

Work this one in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHhkq7p3Qw

I was considering bringing in some elements from the Japon: Histoire du Shooting Game into our presentation, especially the first lines of the documentary (adapted for the panel, of course).

I would make a specific mention of shooting games that people can get into and play really easily. Games that are:

1) Available in the US.
2) Available on modern consoles.

Stuff people can go out to the local game store, pick up, and start playing right away. Maybe Raiden IV and Raiden Fighters Aces?

I'd of course also highlight some of the genre's best games.

We can note down some of that in our presentation and more likely than not share it when the panel comes to a close (alongside doujin links and links to freeware shmups).

We could also do some sort of evolutionary timeline that spreads out what games were made in what time period and visually show the attendees the trends, the companies that came and went, and all that.

[Blackbird]

I'd love to learn more about the "Shmup Timeline."

My understanding of the topic is vague at best. As I understand it, it's something like:

Space Invaders era. Many games that follow are Space Invaders clones.
Xevious, early games started the scrolling thing.
Gradius and RType make powerups really interesting. Gradius/RType clones.
Tatsujin/Raiden are in here somewhere, and get a few clones as well.
???
Battle Garegga and Donpachi come out, and there is a shift towards more "manic" games with higher bullet counts and smaller hitboxes.
Bullet Hell formula becomes more and more pronounced. Raizing, Psikyo, and Cave are major developers. Games become increasingly challenging, featuring higher and higher bullet counts, tiny hitboxes. Scoring systems become increasingly fetishist. Culminating in games like DDP DOJ and Mushi Futari.
Modern era. Most companies have gone under. Most games can be divided into Cave, Touhou, or other indie/doujin. Proliferation of doujins on download services like iPhone/XBox Live.

[Despatche]

-Tatsujin/Raiden are in here somewhere, and get a few clones as well.
-???

Might be best to start with Twin Cobra. No need for an interlude, the "bullet heaven" thing pretty much started from the Raiden thing.

-Battle Garegga and Donpachi come out, and there is a shift towards more "manic" games with higher bullet counts and smaller hitboxes.
-Bullet Hell formula becomes more and more pronounced. Raizing, Psikyo, and Cave are major developers. Games become increasingly challenging, featuring higher and higher bullet counts, tiny hitboxes. Scoring systems become increasingly fetishist. Culminating in games like DDP DOJ and Mushi Futari.
-Modern era. Most companies have gone under. Most games can be divided into Cave, Touhou, or other indie/doujin. Proliferation of doujins on download services like iPhone/XBox Live.

You're giving too much credit:

-Toaplan is dead and many companies have splintered from it. Batsugun and the eventual DonPachi/Battle Garegga are released, beginning the so-called "bullet heaven" genre. This new genre begins to grow; the Toaplan splinters and other companies are very active at this time.
-Many of said companies are dying as well; CAVE is still on top. More indie circles are creating their own projects.
-CAVE is basically alone at this point, for commercial shooting. The indie scenes continue to expand, alongside the consoles' downloadable services. For the video game industry in general, now seems to be a bad time to be commercial and a good time to be an indie. Fans wonder if even CAVE is beginning to lose it.

Also, what do you mean by "fetishist"?

[Deets]

Also, what do you mean by "fetishist"?

As in, scoring systems for the sake of scoring systems, obfuscation for the sake of obfuscation, numbers going up in the billions and trillions because dude. Numbers going up.

Or at least, that's how I interpreted it. When I listen to Warning a Huge Podcast and hear the hosts simultaneously singing Cave's praises and then admitting that they have no idea how any of their games actually work, well. That's something.

[rancor]

numbers going up in the billions and trillions because dude. Numbers going up.

Brilliant. If I didn't have a sig already, that would be mine. Thats one of the few things that bugs me about both CC and FS. If you took off two zeros from the end - or hell, added two - would it really make any difference? What about 3? Numbers for the sake of more numbers.

[Drum]

Somebody should make a shmup that just spews numbers at you until you can't even see the bullets. Avoid the numbers and go for a golf score.

[spadgy]

What about the format the panel will take?

I've done a handful of these at game development events (as the chair of a discussion with three or four panelists - A Q&A session basically. Asking questions to the panelists/directing conversation/ accepting questions from the crowd/keeping to time/etc.).

Could you get some relevant guests to allow you to do this? It's a bit better than a straight presentation/lecture in terms of engaging the audience, and happens to be a lot less effort (not that the latter should matter! ). It just delivers information with a bit more character and balance.

Perhaps you could call on a local indie shmup developer, a local professional games journalist, maybe a staff member of a local arcade, and somebody who's been part of the local arcade scene for decades. And yourselves as chair of course!

[louisg]

Show them at least a couple things that are cool crowed-pleaser shmups: games which, while they have good gameplay, also have tight visuals. Something like Under Defeat (plus it's non-manic so it's easier to follow) or some of the more visually satisfying levels in Soukyugurentai. But UD is one of those games where I can show it to a non-shooter-playing friend and they'll get way into it. And there's always Shikigami, which a lot of newcomers seem to dig-- especially appropriate for an Anime convention

Mars Matrix is a great game, but I'm thinking it might be advanced shmup appreciation. Plus, it's really brutal to get into. GigaWing is a much gentler shmup intro and has similar reflect mechanics. Maybe even GigaWing 2 since it's 3d (and as such might hook more people).

One important point I think a lot of people miss is that other shmups besides Ikaruga have interesting scoring systems. Ikaruga makes it very obvious, but it's a little more subtle in other games, so a lot of players don't even realize that it's there at all.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

One important point I think a lot of people miss is that other shmups besides Ikaruga have interesting scoring systems. Ikaruga makes it very obvious, but it's a little more subtle in other games, so a lot of players don't even realize that it's there at all.

good idea, maybe you could show a video of a superplay where you talk the audience through whats happening on the screen, If you do such a thing then I would imgaine it been difficult to pick the right shmup / segment that will allow you to talk about it without slowing down gameplay while keeping it intresting. Mayby showing 2 or 3 clips of the same segment but with different stategies could be intresting. IE someone whos just playing for suvival, a superplay that takes lots of risks and finaly an average scoring run that doesnt take risks.

[Ghegs]

I think G-Darius could work well as a crowd-pleaser. The beam battles should be a hit with the anime crowd, I can already hear the yells of "Hadoken!" and "KAMEHAMEHA!" and whatever they yell in Naruto coming from the crowd...

[Blackbird]

Also, what do you mean by "fetishist"?

Deets explained this pretty well already, but I was talking about how scoring became more and more abstracted from the actual gameplay.

The old school games had a pretty direct, tangible relationship of points to game objectives. Blow stuff up, get points. Destroying enemies is intuitive and directly related to the task of completing the game.

Newer games can have extremely complicated scoring. Take something like Batrider, where there are numerous secrets involving picking up some items and ignoring others, or Raiden Fighters, where you must occasionally leave enemies alive for some time so that they will produce a bigger points payoff later. Stuff that isn't necessarily intuitive to how you would play the game "naturally".

[mouser]

Most casual gamers will think of this when they think of SHMUPS...may as well show Mushimesama to get their attention, and slowly dissect the genre from there. The perception of STGs is that they're too difficult for the average gamer...try to dispel it.

Just a suggestion

[gs68]

Yeah part of what we want to achieve is showing that there are more to danmaku games than their final bosses. This isn't just a "tribute to shmups" panel. This is a "why shmups are awesome and you should play (or at least try) them instead of thinking of them as crazy Japanese things" panel.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Another helpful suggestion is to mention about the scoring digits possible with the Gigawing series. Of course, with the 3rd sequel of Gigawing Generations running on the Taito Type X arcade hardware, it has the most highest possible scoring ever for a danmaku based shmup title. It seems that shmup dev/publisher Takumi is no longer around.

And will Fanime 2011 be hosting some cool Cave arcade shmup PCBs for their arcade event?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[shadowbringer]

I hope that I'm not late for this discussion

suggestions/opinions/etc:
- try to dispel the idea that shmups aren't well designed or are made to kill you repeatedly (some simpler examples of not sticking to the bottom of the screen -- and some bullet hoarding -- could help people understand that they can affect enemy behavior and/or increase their chances of surviving)
- try to show some of the shmups' different features (Progear's bullet cancelling, for example, or ESP Galuda's, or Giga Wing's Reflect Barrier, or Cyvern's banish meter, Psyvariar's graze invulnerability feature, Battle Garegga's option formations, or Ikaruga's bullet eating would be some examples)
- try to show some concepts of survival (spending bombs if you need to, not focusing on your ship most of the time, not moving across the screen too much or not relying too much on focused movement). Just a side note, this will apply to the Touhou games as well, should some of the fans happen to see your panel
- finally (for the time being) try to give some explanations about the scoring systems (here I'd think about clips with lots of points coming at you at once, provided that the audience is familiarized enough to not just ignore what they're seeing.. for example, Crimzon Clover's break mode :p), because there are some players which considers 1cc or similar challenges a better measure of skill than scoreplay, though you must risk yourself more imho when playing for score, while also having to handle difficulty rank and (a detail that may not be as fit for the audience right now) a deeper knowledge and practice of the game chosen.