Scoring mechanics in shooters.

[DragonInstall]

I'm curious if Cave or any other company will ever make another shooter with a deep and engaging system like Espgaluda 2 BL. Before I really hated how over complicated it felt, but I eventually warmed up to it and found I was really immersed while playing for score.

It would be amazing if there was going to be an Espgaluda 3, but yeah doubtful. I don't know what do you guys think about the subject of more complex scoring over traditional style?

[Sasupoika]

I love deep scoring-systems. Especially Garegga's, Ibara's, Ketsui's, DOJ's and XOP Black's.
Scoring gives me excuse to ram into enemies, suicide, point-blank like maniac and bomb.

[david peterson]

I'm curious if Cave or any other company will ever make another shooter with a deep and engaging system like Espgaluda 2 BL.

This is kinda ridiculous , theres many shooters with deep scoring systems .

[MathU]

Well since CAVE generally makes games with incredibly shitty scoring systems, I'm inclined to think this is a troll thread.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm curious if somebody will ever make another shmup with Fun Weapons™ like Compile and Video System used to. This would rejuvenate my hopes for the future of the genre.
No shmup got me hooked on its scoring system alone. If the very shooting and dodging don't excite me, I don't think much of a game.
Speaking of Cave, Dangun Feveron has a scoring system I enjoy. Guwange's system... Well, coin harvesting feels good and that's about it. Ketsui... Dunno, I don't even wanna know what they pulled out of thin air and put in their game this time, but I enjoy point-blanking so maybe the scoring will grow on me.
The systems of Homura, Shkigami no Shiro and Takumi games I find more intuitive than most things by Cave, but every time I play those, I feel that I'd have more fun playing something older.
Omega Fighter Special, Dangun Feveron and Dragon Blaze are about as complicated as I need. Anything fancier than that - meh.

[mesh control]

Collect gold.

RFJ or Giga Wing style.

[Lance Boyle]

Well since CAVE generally makes games with incredibly shitty scoring systems, I'm inclined to think this is a troll thread.

0/10

Ketsui... Dunno, I don't even wanna know what they pulled out of thin air and put in their game this time, but I enjoy point-blanking so maybe the scoring will grow on me.

Ya point-blank enemies with the shot to get big multiplier chips and use the laser to spend the multiplier bonus. Simple enough for you?

Why the hate? Scoring systems are the way these games differentiate themselves.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Collect gold.

Dragon Blaze. Third button. Dragon thing.

Why the hate? Scoring systems are the way these games differentiate themselves.

"Hate" is not a word I use lightly. The very concept of hating a game is absurd to me.

[RNGmaster]

Well since CAVE generally makes games with incredibly shitty scoring systems, I'm inclined to think this is a troll thread.

Guwange.
Progear.
ESP Galuda.

Oh come on, you must be trolling.

[NzzpNzzp]

Game long chaining sounds pretty shitty to me! Guwange is right the hell out.

[BulletMagnet]

I don't like where this thread is going - beware of sudden closings and temp bannings, all ye who enter here.

[Drum]

Omega Fighter > Cave

Well, maybe not - I just wanted to bring up Omega Fighter.

[Lance Boyle]

Game long chaining sounds pretty shitty to me! Guwange is right the hell out.

Have you even played it?

It's not nearly as strict as most other games with chaining. Getting hit will just subtract from your chain, and dying will simply halve it.

The game's only about a half hour long - it's not that difficult to ensure you're firing at something enough of the time to keep the meter up.

[Taylor]

I think halving your score potential in a game long chain is pretty crappy, too.

Ketsui, Futari and Feveron would be good counter examples.

Most of Caves older games place a huge emphasis on no bomb no miss. Progear has a really cool system until you realise where your points actually come from: x2 multiplier, gem counter and default gem are all ruined on any mistake and you might as well restart.

[NzzpNzzp]

It's not nearly as strict as most other games with chaining. Getting hit will just subtract from your chain, and dying will simply halve it.

Simply halving the chain that you've spent twenty minutes building up seems pretty harsh to me, boss! Still not as harsh as breaking it if you bomb without maxing your chain meter beforehand, though, which is something else the game does that you seem to have forgotten about (you have played it, right?)! I'd just like a game where I don't have to be perfect all the time.
Ketsui is the only Cave game I've played where I've actually had fun going for high scores. Possibly I'm just missing the other good ones, though, I haven't played all that many.

[sunburstbasser]

Lock on, get points. My favorite scoring system is the Ray Force/Souky system.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Pointblanking fast-takedown of an enemy scoring system is okay with me, done in the Raiden Fighters, Raiden III, Silpheed The Lost Planet (just to name a few). Collection of medals or other icons scoring is okay with me as long as it is fixed scoring per medal (e.g., Raiden I/II/III, Aero Fighters, 19xx) and not on a time-based collection awarding variable points such as Raiden DX or Strikers 1945.

[wiNteR]

Most of Caves older games place a huge emphasis on no bomb no miss. Progear has a really cool system until you realise where your points actually come from: x2 multiplier, gem counter and default gem are all ruined on any mistake and you might as well restart.

So true. But yeah, Feveron's system sounds good on paper. And I haven't played Futari or Ketsui.

Generally, I tend to find the non-Cave scoring systems more fun. Ideas like coin chain, medal collection, tech bonus, bullet grazing etc. are easy to understand and fun to execute.

[CptRansom]

Pointblanking fast-takedown of an enemy scoring system is okay with me, done in the Raiden Fighters, Raiden III, Silpheed The Lost Planet (just to name a few). Collection of medals or other icons scoring is okay with me as long as it is fixed scoring per medal (e.g., Raiden I/II/III, Aero Fighters, 19xx) and not on a time-based collection awarding variable points such as Raiden DX or Strikers 1945.

These for me. Of the Cave games I've played, only Futari and Ketsui have scoring systems I like. I'm not manly enough for enemy chaining.

[Despatche]

Destroy enemies and get points, maybe bonus formations, yay

[Kollision]

Reading all these posts made me wonder how cool it would be for someone to write about all the different scoring techniques in shmups.
Like a Bulletmagnet-quality write-up.

On topic, my favorite scoring systems are those from Takumi. Skonec's are also fine, as well as more simple systems with formation/completion/item bonuses. From Cave the ones I like most are probably Deathsmiles and Futari, even though I much prefer the original Mushi.
DDP chaining is just anal, I know I should aim for survival only but I get greedy and can't perform decently.

[Ruldra]

I guess I'm one of the few who prefer a simple scoring system like Gradius or Toaplan games. Just destroy enemies and focus on survival.

[DragonInstall]

Interesting to see how many people prefer different scoring mechanics. I thought more people would like Espgaluda II BL, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It really shows how hard it is to make a shooter that can please everyone.

I for one hate DoDonpachi chain system. So depressing to lose a chain in DFK because you're screwed the rest of the level in score.

[louisg]

The only games so far where I truly enjoyed scoring were Ikaruga, Mars Matrix, and RayForce (getting the max locks is addictive). I also don't like chain systems where you can't recover if you lose it mid-level (like GigaWing's). At least in Ikaruga you can get back up to where you were somewhat quickly.

[saucykobold]

I guess I'm one of the few who prefer a simple scoring system like Gradius or Toaplan games. Just destroy enemies and focus on survival.

Yeah, I tend to prefer those as well. Developing stable routes and survival strats can be very engaging in many old shmups. In some of my favorites, a deep scoring system would be superfluous at best and a potential distraction at worst.

On a related topic, I remember reading somewhere on the forum that "lazy" people prefer games with rudimentary scoring systems. I don't think this is necessarily true. Consider this replay of a 1989 survival-based game. Who's to say that that required any less practice and study than a Mars Matrix counterstop or a G score in Garegga?

[Kollision]

I also don't like chain systems where you can't recover if you lose it mid-level (like GigaWing's).

How exactly?
Giga Wing's multiplier is solely related to how well you're able to reflect and collect medals in each stage. Unless you're talking about dying, but that relates to all other games out there as well.

[Blackbird]

I prefer scoring systems that emphasize survival and/or risk vs. reward.

Extended, game long chains feel a bit unforgiving to me in that a single mistake ruins the whole run.

[RNGmaster]

I prefer scoring systems that emphasize survival and/or risk vs. reward.

Extended, game long chains feel a bit unforgiving to me in that a single mistake ruins the whole run.

Yeah, and that's exactly why I don't care for Ibara/Raizing scoring. One mistake drops you back to 100 medals, and those totally screw you rank-wise aside from making you start from scratch and lose scoring ability. I'd say medal chaining is about as bad as DDP chaining.

[Aquas]

Notch me down as another traditionalist, I prefer survival based. They are more fundamental to the core of shmups so I find that I can like these games easier, compared to other games where the scoring system will impose on my enjoyment of the game. Simply getting to the stage you've never reached on one credit before, that excitement should never die. Some scoring systems will help you reach the latter stages, so that's cool too.

Finding a good scoring system can be really refreshing. Mushihimesama's Maniac mode opened my eyes in this regard. The special button tapping you need to do to build the counters on midbosses and larger enemies is very cathartic somehow. First, slow and steady tapping, then tapping as fast as you can. The faster you can tap there, the more you squeeze out the points. And the tension from dodging at the same time. I loved how busy that aspect of maniac mode was. Basically a chaining system, but the leeway being that the chaining meter would never drop completely unless you fumbled hardcore... dying, bombing, being chased into a poor position. And if you died, most of your score for that stage could still be salvaged if you didn't reach the midboss yet.

...Damn, I want to play Mushi now.

[mesh control]

Mushihimesama's Maniac mode opened my eyes in this regard. The special button tapping you need to do to build the counters on midbosses and larger enemies is very cathartic somehow. First, slow and steady tapping, then tapping as fast as you can. The faster you can tap there, the more you squeeze out the points. Basically a chaining system, but the leeway being that the chaining meter would never drop completely unless you fumbled hardcore... dying, bombing, being chased into a poor position. And if you died, most of your score for that stage could still be salvaged if you didn't reach the midboss yet.

Although the chaining is forgiving; I can't, for the life of me understand how button wankery can be appealing. I'd rather be presented with something on screen that gets me thrown off (in a good way). Same reason I can't get into Galuda II or Esprade. Maybe I'm crazy, or I need to learn2play...