How teachers can teach their students

[Paint_It_Blak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsnnFhNAij0

If my teacher did this I'd probably learn more.

[CMoon]

I'm about to the point of making a shirt that says 'Blame me, I'm a teacher'; seriously, teaching though death metal is a better suggestion than most of the shit trickling down from the media

[Vyxx]

All depends on the age group...

[neorichieb1971]

The biggest reason people don't learn is because of distractions. If parents taught their kids not to be easily led and be shown the right path learning would be easier.

I understand in America there is a movie called "Superman" that deals with kids learning in the States and how the education system there is failing its kids. Its easy for me to understand that a liberal free country will deflect a lot of its children into star struck idiots until its too late.

I watched some Judge Judy today (was just on I don't usually watch it) and it came across to me that even the adults have elevators that don't go up to the top.

I don't believe that youtube would help anyone. It really just teaches you how to be loud and obnoxious.

[EPS21]

I don't believe that youtube would help anyone. It really just teaches you how to be loud and obnoxious.

Youtube is just a tool that can help people put out actually useful videos, or ones that would promote loud and obnoxious retarded comment shitposting behavior, which unfortunately the vast majority fall in the latter. However, Here's an example of someone using youtube in such a way that challenges the effectiveness of any Math classes http://www.khanacademy.org/

[t0yrobo]

I can say with some certainty that if there has been any problem with my education it's that some teachers I had were just shit at their jobs.
Anyways, if you're going to make metal for kids, dinosaur costumes help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aovaRsVV28

[KBZ]

In many places, the culture of education just isn't really there... for everyone. Most of us could agree that Private schools will most likely offer students a better learning and living experience. But if the experience of a private school is what is best for your child, then why every child? Cuts to public schools are something most have come to accept, however personal spending on education is only going up as people struggle to get their kids out of their local urban public schools.

Public schools don't have to be the way they are. Most kids would consider their high school a dump that's old, falling apart, and well...ghetto. The funding is just never there.

When was the last time you heard of the mythical "School spirit"? Frankly there just isn't that much to be proud of anymore, schools are not succeeding in being a great learning environment.

And they wont until we all pay up... Unfortunately many lawyers and lobbyists come from a long line of Private Schooling and have no problem fighting to cut off public school funding to lower their taxes a little morel.

What do they care if the middle class grows up uneducated?

(I'm also studying to become a high school teacher)

[ED-057]

The biggest reason people don't learn is because of distractions.

Nah, it's because they don't care to.

[CptRansom]

(I'm also studying to become a high school teacher)

You should quit doing silly things like that.

[neorichieb1971]

I was watching the news recently where they were talking about a school in the US that cost $350,000,000 to build. That to recoup the cost of it they would have to charge each student a monstrous amount of money. The dining area looked like a royal palace.

Apparently the argument of why spend such ludicrous amounts of money on the building when the education is what is more important. The Answer - Its comes out of a different budget.

[CMoon]

The biggest reason people don't learn is because of distractions.

Nah, it's because they don't care to.

This.

And there's good reason not to care. The public education system doesn't really have a lot to offer kids, especially those not headed toward college (which is the majority.) For non-college-bound children, it really comes down to whether their family values education or whether they find it personally interesting--but of course, most people think school is boring.


Er, anyway, I didn't know you guys wanted a serious conversation about education. I just threw out a sarcastic comment because here in LA, the papers are actually printing up names (over 600!) of teachers who have not shown significant progress with their children. Of course, there's several reasons why the data could be misleading, but its also hugely unprofessional. On the other hand, the public wants a witch-hunt at this point. Everyone remembers a teacher they didn't like, and now in their mind the school is littered with bad teachers protected by tenure. I'm not saying there aren't bad teachers (there are), but every child has teachers they don't like.

[Slump]

Er, anyway, I didn't know you guys wanted a serious conversation about education. I just threw out a sarcastic comment because here in LA, the papers are actually printing up names (over 600!) of teachers who have not shown significant progress with their children.

Wow, that's pretty crazy. I feel for teachers these days as the climate seems rather cold towards them. My soon to be mother-in-law is an elementary school teacher here in Ohio on the verge of retiring (Got 36 yrs in) and I've heard her complain of how the curriculum is set up currently. She always refers to it as sending kids through an assembly line of standards and test scores without any soul or actual worthwhile education. It's hard to get kids interested and connect to them in such an environment. In my own personal experience, as someone who has gone through a rural public high school and a 4 year university I can say 90% of my education came from my parents and myself. I've always thought that if parents want to see real results in their kids education they need to get them interested in learning early on (every child can find learning interesting!) and be hands on with them throughout the duration of their schooling. People learn most of what they need to succeed in life outside of school and it's the parents responsibility to provide that for them. But that's just my opinion.

Also, that video is hilarious!

[BulletMagnet]

The biggest reason people don't learn is because of distractions.

Nah, it's because they don't care to.

This.

QFT - until we finally overcome the misguided cultural notion that being "too smart" or ever putting in more effort than the bare minimum is a bad thing, not to mention that any venture not specifically devoted to short-term self-profit isn't worth undertaking, you can put any teacher you want in any classroom you want with whatever resources you want and still see kids bragging to each other about how many classes they've cut and exchanging high-fives after failing the same test miserably. Until we get it through our collective heads that becoming more generally learned is a worthwhile endeavor even if 1) it doesn't constantly serve to entertain us and 2) we'll never "directly" make any money off of most of it, the core mindset of most students (and their parents, and the policy-makers, and the business world which eventually hires them) will remain "if this whole thing hasn't somehow been painstakingly custom-tailored to my individual enjoyment and betterment, it's not good enough". And of course if anyone ever dares to suggest a different point of view, that's indoctrination or Socialism or something - everyone knows that everyone's kid is a genius and that the world (and the needed funding) exists to cater to their whims, so any shortcomings between here and that destined six-figure starting salary MUST mean that those damn teachers are being lazy again.

[Ed Oscuro]

Most of us could agree that Private schools will most likely offer students a better learning and living experience.

Depends, the results of charter schools (to give a US-specific example) are mixed. Here is an article which looks to have some specifics on the matter (I didn't read all the way through, since I'm just dropping this off).

One of the problems with charter or private schools is that they can cherry-pick students. If you are dumb but your parents are really wealthy, they will take you on and charge you the highest rate (if that's legal for them to do). If you are smart but not as wealthy they may still consider you to pull up their test scores. If you seem poorly educated and don't have money, they have less incentive to take you on. Even if the school is well-intentioned, the incentive to be sneaky is always there. Public schools are mandated to take everybody on, but surprisingly in some places they aren't doing badly compared to charter schools.

[CMoon]

I'll read that article in a second, however (and because I've read some very misleading articles on education), I want to make perfectly clear the difference between private, charter and public (obviously this is for the USA):

Private = you pay to get in (duh!)
Charter = kids can be kicked out (including for low grades)
Public = takes all children, and cannot remove them UNLESS they commit an actual crime (IE violence, sexual harassment, etc.)

Now it should be clear to anyone that our schools are still segregated. They are financially segregated first and foremost, then they are academically segregated. Most people could look at this and understand why public schools are performing at a lower level than charter and private. Some asshole in newsweek argued strongly that clearly what the charters are doing works, without recognizing that their success does at least to some extent come from their ability to remove non-succeeding students. In our current climate where teachers are evaluated on their student's success, the Charter school has the advantage, where the public school must continue to do their best to help children whether they are academically successful or not.

Now all that said, I'm kinda for charter schools because they allow a lot of other options that public schools don't, and it would be Un-American to forbid private schools. On the other hand, being a teacher where I am day in and day out working with failing students and doing my best to help them grow academically and otherwise; I recognize both the need for plain old public education, and I the futility of attempting to quantitative assess the work that I do.

Edit: Ha! I think I just went on a rant about something you said in a couple sentences Ed.

[CMoon]

Incidentally, if I haven't said above, the real problem I think with education (without getting into a blame game) is the lack of differentiation. IE, not everyone is college-bound, so why is that the only educational track in the public schools? Where are the vocational tracks? Why can't students in high school start doing apprenticeships? Maybe kids aren't trying because school aint givin' them jack!

[KBZ]

Incidentally, if I haven't said above, the real problem I think with education (without getting into a blame game) is the lack of differentiation. IE, not everyone is college-bound, so why is that the only educational track in the public schools? Where are the vocational tracks? Why can't students in high school start doing apprenticeships? Maybe kids aren't trying because school aint givin' them jack!

They are in the business of Education and we are their livestock......MAN! :p

Don't most High schools offer some sort of apprenticeships? In Ontario we had co-op placements where your afternoon or morning classes in your last and second year of High School would be replaced with a job approved by the School. I did mine at College Radio, and an independent cd store (cause I'm such a damn scenester).

Not quite a proper apprenticeship but at least some real world job experience to help kids out before being thrown into the lake once High School ends.

[CptRansom]

lol, Lazy teachers... I've been putting in 50-60 hour weeks (not even including my 60-mile drive to and from work or the work I do at home [grading papers, lesson planning, writing quizzes/worksheets/notes/etc.]) since I got back to work four weeks ago. Not every public school teacher sits on his or her ass and collects a paycheck, thank you very much. (in b4 people go off about working 70-80 hour weeks; congrats, you work more... that doesn't mean everyone who works fewer hours is LAZY)

You want to know why so many teachers don't care anymore? I have an old friend who is an ASSISTANT DELI MANAGER in a grocery store. He makes roughly $10,000 a year more than I do. He doesn't have to take 60-hour classes and tests (the costs of which aren't covered by the employer) just to KEEP his job - let alone get any kind of promotion.

I'm all for working harder as an educator. I do what I have to do for my students regardless of the paycheck coming in, but that doesn't mean I don't see why a lot of people - people who are in it as a job and not a lifestyle - stop caring after a while and get lazy. I wish these people would stop teaching, but the profession is woefully understaffed as it is. It's difficult to get quality when you don't have much to choose from.

I'd love to see half the people who complain about teachers step into a classroom for a day and try to run things since they apparently know how it SHOULD be done. Go ahead. You've got fifty minutes a day for 180 days to reach 25 kids at a time. Oh, and keep in mind that there are things like state testing, yearbook photos, assemblies, and more that eat into those days. So, realistically, you've got about 165 days tops. Out of those 25 kids, you might have about ten that are "average". Don't forget, though, that you have to cater to the ones who are above-average and the ones who are ESE at the same time as well as the ones who are dealing with emotional/phsyical/sexual abuse from family/boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever... the ones who have the drug problems... and the seven kids with ADD or ADHD. Oh, and definitely don't forget that new girl who barely speaks English. Better make sure they ALL pass a state-mandated test or else you're obviously a failure as a teacher and deserve even less pay. So go ahead and get to work. It's so easy and we're all so lazy as educators that I'm sure the complainers can do a much better job! I'll be happy to watch and learn from the MASTERS.

I need a good laugh.

Sorry for the incoherent ranting. I'm tired, I skimmed this thread, and I figured I'd toss in my two cents. I'm 90% sure I'm going to wake up tomorrow and wonder what I was doing (I'm fairly certain nothing I'm ranting about is even remotely related to this thread and that's okay with me).

[CMoon]

<stuff>

You sound like you're ready for the 'Blame me, I'm a teacher' shirt.

The only good news for you is that it DOES get easier the longer you teach. This is my 9th year, and it isn't quite so tough as that anymore. On the other hand, you gotta look for anything you can possibly find to lighten your load. And the way things are going, you can expect your load to increase a little bit every year.

[CptRansom]

Oh, I know it gets easier, but I don't think it will EVER reach a point where it will be "easy." This is my fourth year, and while a lot of things are easier, a lot of other, more difficult things are replacing the easy things just because of my desire to grow professionally and get better at my job. I'm sure if my desire was to stagnate and enjoy tenure, I'd be having a much easier time of things.

I really want that shirt, though. I'd definitely wear it.

[antron]

If we don't keep all the poor kids ignorant who is going to pick all the fruit and sweep the floors when we kick all the immigrants out?

[neorichieb1971]

If we don't keep all the poor kids ignorant who is going to pick all the fruit and sweep the floors when we kick all the immigrants out?

Some of those immigrants have a built in ability to take a lot of shit and deal with it.

I didn't do well at school. I found that I wanted to learn stuff that was important in the real world, where I could apply my skills. Most people find there way this way. If everyone was an acedamic genius not a lot would get done in the world. All that shit does is make you feel special somehow, like your not supposed to work for a living.

[CMoon]

I didn't do well at school. I found that I wanted to learn stuff that was important in the real world, where I could apply my skills. Most people find there way this way. If everyone was an acedamic genius not a lot would get done in the world. All that shit does is make you feel special somehow, like your not supposed to work for a living.

There's nothing intrinsic about the american education system that says it must be focused entirely on academics. This is an unfortunate and recent perversion of the US education system where vocational/trade aspects of education have mostly been abandoned. With budget cuts, skill based electives like art and band are also often abandoned. All emphasis has been placed on the 'four cores'--english, math, history and science.

Going back to foundational writings of american education (like John Dewey), you find that the intention of the schools was to prepare ALL children for an unknown future. This is very different than our current system that prepares a very small percentage for college standards, and tells the rest that they aren't good enough--completely ignoring that of course very few people will go to college at all. What does school have to offer these children? I've no idea, which is pretty sad. Instead of going after teachers, I'd prefer to see the whole system under attack. Instead of saying our scores aren't high enough, let's talk about real outcomes. What can the schools do to prepare children for an unknown future?

[charlie chong]

IF THEY HAVE A BRAIN BUT UNWILLINGNESS TO LEARN THEN LIFE'LL TEACH EM GOOD ANYWAYS.

[KindGrind]

I've been teaching languages 14-17 year olds for 8 years now, and most regular students (those outside of international education programs and stuff) just don't care about anything. "I'll take the class again next year"... "It's useless anyway"... "I'm taking a year off"... "I'm dropping out, school sucks"... and that's when they decide to come to school. You see the kid hanging out in the forest near the school, yet their parents swear they're home, sick. It's like Bueller's day off on a massive scale, but with the parents' consent.

It would be too easy to blame the teachers, although I can say that I'd not be too happy if teachers I studied with taught my kids. The profession is/was so unappealing that they've opened the floodgates a few years ago, and obviously some candidates were... weaker than others.

[EPS21]

Of all the ranting I've heard in my life, you guys really have the most legitimate complaints about your situation and the publics' attitudes towards teachers in general. So many of you have to put up with a lot of shit and unrealistic expectations, and yet day in and day out you still try your hardest because in the end you want to help your students learn something, and not about achieving an artificial goal that the state imposes.

I really feel for you guys as my mother too is a teacher, specializing in a subject the administration doesn't give a shit about (Choir, Band, Piano, music in general) and as a result is treated lower than other teachers in the eyes of administrators. A series of unfortunate events led to some really painful times for her. Hip surgery, had to wear crutches, and then a total bitch administrator whose goal was to make my mom's life as miserable as possible just so she can advance her own career (she was late to a class by 1-2 minutes soonafter that surgery, admin proceeded to punish by making her arrive earlier, before the janitors got there, and actually clock in when no other staff had to), ALL while she had to drive between 2 different schools teaching, 30 mins apart from each other, everyday. No surprise here, the administrator got what she wanted, but thankfully my mom now teaches at a much better place.

So you guys deserve a lot more respect than you get credit for. Me personally wouldn't be able to stand a gig like that for more than 5 minutes, I can't stand children/teenagers. It's so sad when the most important workers in society get paid the least.

[antron]

Tenure in grade/high school is moronic. Bad employees should be fired, teachers are no exception.

[CMoon]

Tenure in grade/high school is moronic. Bad employees should be fired, teachers are no exception.

Depends on what the grounds are for firing teachers. In the work place, most people aren't fired on a whim. There's typically a standard set of procedures including giving the employee a chance to change whatever the employer considers a problem.

Like all jobs, I agree that insubordination by the part of the teacher and actually not making an attempt to do their job (IE not even trying to teach) are grounds for firing. 95% of the teachers I've met always take the admin's recommendations seriously and do their best to teach kids. They're also more open to suggestion than most other professions (we're always looking for some new strategy to improve education); however that extra 5% should be fired. I know it is more difficult because of tenure, bit it can be done.

The problem however is that the 5% isn't the issue here. Neither is Tenure. The issues in the news right now are about low test scores, and putting all that on the backs of teachers. One could hope this would lead to an honest discussion about the American Education model--something which does need to be changed!--but it should be pretty obvious this is really an attempt to break up the teacher unions and be able to replace high payed older teachers with low-payed 1st year teachers.

We've mostly all been content watching the dissolution of the other unions and ultimately the shipping out of many of Americas jobs, but how comfortable are you (especially those of you who are parents) trusting the education of your kids with teachers that make only a little more than minimum wage? How low are they going to have to drop the standards for teachers? No one is going to consider it as a serious career choice.

Edit: Oh, PS, if they do succeed at breaking up the union and making teacher's pay based on how they do on test scores, there will be mass exodus by teachers to private and charter; meaning that once again kids from the lowest economic will be fucked (that is, fucked even harder than normal.) Happy days!

[antron]

CMoon,

What do you think of D.C. Schools Chancellor Michelle Rhee?

or the general idea of multiple unannounced teacher evaluations by education experts combined with student test scores?

[CMoon]

CMoon,

What do you think of D.C. Schools Chancellor Michelle Rhee?

I'll take a look at it and get back to you on it.

or the general idea of multiple unannounced teacher evaluations by education experts combined with student test scores?

I don't have a problem with unannounced evaluations, especially paired the admin/teacher conferences and suggestions for improvement. Admin needs to be objective about positive changes that need to be implemented.

The second part is sketchier. The terms we're hearing are 'value added', which refers to the positive change you hope to see in test scores from year to year as a student grows.

Sounds good on paper AND in the papers. Unfortunately, topics taught from year to year aren't the same, for instance: middle-schoolers who take algebra often find it very difficult, and their test scores show this--but others interpret it as bad teaching! Also, comparing scores implies that tests for each grade level are of equal difficulty, but this is impossible to control for. The proper way to show growth like this would be to have the task be the same each year, but no one does this.

Reducing someone's education to a number also fails to relate the actual changes children grow through. For instance, it is actually normal for performance to go down in the middle school since children are going through puberty. Is this reflected in the numbers? Should teachers be fired for this?

Evaluating teachers based on test scores is effectively a business or managerial model, but public school teachers can't make their students do homework, nor can they 'fire' failing students. Efforts of good teachers should show up in test scores, but this isn't a given, and there are too many problems with this method to consider it a good indicator.

And once again...TENURE and BAD TEACHERS are not what's wrong with American education. It is the system itself. A Teacher's job is to sell something to students that is outdated and they don't want. ????

Edit: I just cut this post in half removing everything to avoid TL;DR. If something is unclear, ask me to explain it. Also I omitted examples and evidence.