How to start with PCB's?

[Galactik]

I have been getting deep into the SHMUP genre the past 8 months.

Picked up Futari, Esp2 on 360 as well as the numerous XBLA shmups as well.
I also have been enjoying MAME as well, so much that I am building a MAME cabinet (PC in a cabinet).

I have noticed people in this forum talking about playing PCB's of games.

How on earth do I find out how you guys are doing this? Do I need a actual authentic game cabinet that you plug the PCB into? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanx.

[jonny5]

google 'jamma'....read.....learn

also:

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/

i would read up on all that before building a mame cab....might change your mind....its just as easy/easier to put a PC in a normal jamma cab ...and you can play pcbs in a jamma cab as well.....BONUS GET!

but ya....read and learn

also...this thread belongs in hardware

[neorichieb1971]

Jamma PCB's are plug and play most of the time. If it uses a joystick and 3 buttons its plug n play. If it uses more buttons or a different kind of controller you will have to do some homework. Neo geo uses 4 buttons but its designed so that you can add another button relatively easy.

Capcom fighters use 6 buttons, so you need another wiring harness.

Its better to have 2 cabinets, because some games are vertical, like most Cave games. Where as Neo geo titles are all horizontal. So unless you want to change the screen around every 5 minutes its a waste of time.

A supergun is a project box that has all the electrical feeds the PCB needs. You can usually find someone that will build one for a price, you just name the joystick/controller you want and what kind of video encoding you want on board. RGB is best, but some prefer component or VGA.

I have a supergun and 4 cabinets at the moment. They are rewarding, but they also need lots of room. Spare parts are probably quite hard to come by depending on what cabinet you get. Its all good stuff... Remember PCB's aren't cheap. You'll be lucky to score 5 PCB's for $1000 on this forum (depending on titles of course).

[robivy64]

Prepare for wallet rape.

[jonny5]

Prepare for wallet rape.

+1

[mirkvid]

My wallet must be a dirty whore.

[jonny5]

My wallet must be a dirty whore.

says the guy who sold me either my first pcb or my first supergun...cant remember

[xris]

Oh lordy! I am (not really) looking forward to when this happens for me. It's probably gonna be Dimahoo that breaks me, it looks too good. Gotta get through some import back catalogs 1st thankfully

[Magic Knight]

You need money, money, and almost certainly more money. It's a funny business though, I think nothing of paying out $400 odd dollars for an average 80's platformer, but balk at prices for new console games, regardless of quality.

[sven666]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tekken-Tag-Tourname ... 19bc00822c

there, off you go!!

You need money, money, and almost certainly more money. It's a funny business though, I think nothing of paying out $400 odd dollars for an average 80's platformer, but balk at prices for new console games, regardless of quality.

hehe made me think of the rocker from league of gentlemen if you ever saw that?

[Magic Knight]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tekken-Tag-Tourname ... 19bc00822c

there, off you go!!

You need money, money, and almost certainly more money. It's a funny business though, I think nothing of paying out $400 odd dollars for an average 80's platformer, but balk at prices for new console games, regardless of quality.

hehe made me think of the rocker from league of gentlemen if you ever saw that?

I have to say I haven't I'm afraid.

Another thing about PCBs: they break. Sometimes you buy them and they're broken. Sometimes they break mysteriously. I was playing Hyper Sports one day, perfect. Turned it on next day, graphics were missing. Bizzarre.

Having expensive PCBs which can break like that is nerve-wracking. Hence I'm selling my expensive Cave PCBs. At least if my Yie Ar Kung Fu breaks it only cost $10.

What's more, bootlegs are everywhere. I was sold an "original" PCB last week, but it's clearly a bootleg.

Then you have all of the specific hardware requirements for NAOMI games etc. etc. You really need to study the hardware and what you need to get it to work.

It's just not the same with console games, generally speaking.

[Paradigm]

Would you guys who have them recommend a supergun as an ideal alternative to a full blown cabinet?

Obviously it's not as good as playing PCB's in a proper cab, but through RGB, is a supergun a good enough substitute? One thing I'm curious about, do MAMEable games like DDP look/play better through a supergun or is it exactly the same? Obviously you can't use save states or anything but do people buy these PCB's for the sake of ownership or is it worth the extra cost?

[Magic Knight]

Would you guys who have them recommend a supergun as an ideal alternative to a full blown cabinet?

Obviously it's not as good as playing PCB's in a proper cab, but through RGB, is a supergun a good enough substitute? One thing I'm curious about, do MAMEable games like DDP look/play better through a supergun or is it exactly the same? Obviously you can't use save states or anything but do people buy these PCB's for the sake of ownership or is it worth the extra cost?

I used to have a cabinet, and now a supergun with two monitors.

The supergun and PCB are on the shelf above the monitors.


Obviously, one monitor for vertical games and the other for horizontal ones. The horizontal monitor in the picture is actually connected to the X68000. Sound comes through two standard speakers.

This is a high quality Japanese supergun setup.

Now, cabinets are obviously the proper way to do it, bigger screen, proper control panel etc. but I don't have the space, and my wife would kill me. What's more, it would be a hell of a job to move when I move house, which I will next year. I can also use the supergun on a bigger television if I want. Rotating them is the big problem.

Oh, and they can cost quite a bit, especially the newer Japanese ones.

Oh, and with MAME, there's quite a difference with the real things. You'd be surprised, especially with the input lag, check out the lagless MAME discussion. As a caveat, I haven't used it myself, but most people rave about it. That will give you a good idea.
Also, quite often the MAME colours, sound, and general feel is just different. Nevermind that many games have incomplete emulation.

[sven666]

Would you guys who have them recommend a supergun as an ideal alternative to a full blown cabinet?

its a subjective opinion man, personally i wouldnt go down the supergun route because a, i like cabs - theyre an importatnt part of playing arcade games in the first place.

and b, i only have huge LCD screens and projectors and whatnot, not at all suited for PCBs (what you want for a supergun is a nice CRT monitor).

but yeah, as many others, get a cheapo supergun off ebay and try it out with a few cheapo PCBs, all in all its easily possible to stay under $200 and get all the components plus a few games to get the feel of the whole thing before you start splashing +$1000 on cave games...

[Galactik]

Actually, it looks like building a supergun would be a good way to go to get started. It looks like I would use a 56 pin adapter (http://www.lizardlick.com/pages/boards.shtml shows a 56 pin edge connector). So would 56 pin be a common size to use?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yep, a 56-pin interface is the standard for supergun setups and candy cabs. Of course, if you start dealing with pre-Jamma PCBs, then you find out that some Japanese PCB manufacturers used small 36-pin interfaces instead which would call for a Jamma loom harness adapter in order to use such a pre-Jamma PCB on a Jamma based supergun or Jamma based candy cabinet setup.

Some early Jamma based PCBs would be like Capcom's Hyper Dyne Sidearms PCB that dates back to 1986 or Konami's A-Jax/Typhoon PCB that hails from 1987.

A Jamma based PCB that uses a small & compact PCB size would be Atari Games' Tetris PCB circa 1986 as well.

Back in the early 1980s, American arcade operators/owners were required to store their arcade PCBs inside metal enclosures to prevent unwanted RF interference as required by the U.S. based Federal Communications Comission (FCC). So it was common to see some arcade PCB kits sold with huge metal enclosure cages back in the mid-1980s. They sure incurred hefty shipping fees just for the increased weight alone with them metal enclosure cages. Even Sega's Model 1, Model 2 and Model 3 based arcade PCBs come with huge metal shielded enclosures...(i.e -- a Sega Model 2 based Virtual On PCB is a colossal monster PCB indeed).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[iatneH]

Have a read up at gamesx if you are interested in building a supergun.

http://www.gamesx.com/arcade/primer.htm
http://www.gamesx.com/arcade/jamma.htm
http://www.gamesx.com/arcade/cheapjamma.htm

You won't need to order much at lizardlick as basic parts can be bought from local electronics shops. 56-pin (28x2) is the proper JAMMA standard size.

Controllers can padhacked. If you want to save money, Sega Genesis 6-button controllers are my personal choice as they are good and cheap to obtain. If you don't have a RGB-capable monitor, you will need a RGB->NTSC adaptor of some sort. There are several models you can buy (i.e. JROK, Neobitz), or you can build your own. This will probably be the most costly part if you need it, everything else should cost only a couple of dollars.

Any power supply with +5V and +12V should have you covered for most games. You can use an old PC power supply or DVD player power supply and if you're lucky you can find these for free from junked units.

I've sort of documented a build in this thread, so you can see all the components - JAMMA harness, PSU, RGB->NTSC, controller ports etc., and I think it cost me less than $50 not including the JROK, which was around $70. Genesis controllers were hacked for about $5 each.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p321045
It's Kingbuzzo's build thread so I think he has some pictures of his build process as well.

It's fun! Hope you consider it...

[Van_Artic]

those sticks look cool, where did you got them?

[ZOM]

those sticks look cool, where did you got them?

I'm also interested in this. Also, what parts(sticks & buttons) do they use?
Thanks in advance.

[ncp]

Someone (I believe it was EOJ) was selling one of those exact sticks, they're Sigma Raijin supergun sticks.

[ZOM]

I thought the Sigma Raijin is shaped like a 2p CP and has a pic of Raijin in the middle?
Unless those are some precursor of the one I know...

[ncp]

edit: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=203552

found it

Yeah, my use of the word Raijin was incorrect. According to EOJ it's a Sigma 9000TB. Link has all sorts of stuff about it.

[dcharlie]

yup, they are Sigma sticks, the Raijin tends to be the long fully built in units :

Sigma Raijin :


Sigma 9000 controller :


for use with the Sigma av7000 supergun :


edit: doh, i see this was answered anyways - sorry about the mild pic spam.

[ZOM]

Thanks to ncp & dcharlie for the infos and link. So the thing has a LS-32 and seimitsu buttons; that's great!

[Skykid]

Everything Magic Knight has said here is the gospel truth. You need either a fat bank account or a shitty diet, and PCB's that break or aren't working on arrival is a secondary expense that's pretty unwelcome.

But it's all for the love man.

[Magic Knight]

Yep, I have the Sigma AV7000 supergun and the sticks are Sigma 9000TBs. Very good quality equipment. I have a smaller cheaper supergun back in storage in Ireland, on which I used a Super Nintendo controller. Not nearly as good, obviously, plus my supergun doesn't supply -5V, which means certain games won't work properly - so make sure your supergun's power supply has this if building one.

Those Raijin sticks/supergun units are huge - they're much bigger in reality than they look in pictures. My setup is more expensive, but I like how I can have the PCB far from the controllers, and also, I often use the computers you see there, or my MSX, so I can get them out of the way really quickly.

Having two monitors in this case is ideal too. I got a few cables and gender changer so I can easily switch between monitors and X68000 or television input. If you're wondering, they're X68000 monitors which can run at 15, 24 or 31kHZ, comes in very handy.

[dcharlie]

Yep, I have the Sigma AV7000 supergun and the sticks are Sigma 9000TBs. Very good quality equipment. I have a smaller cheaper supergun back in storage in Ireland, on which I used a Super Nintendo controller. Not nearly as good, obviously, plus my supergun doesn't supply -5V, which means certain games won't work properly - so make sure your supergun's power supply has this if building one.

Those Raijin sticks/supergun units are huge - they're much bigger in reality than they look in pictures. My setup is more expensive, but I like how I can have the PCB far from the controllers, and also, I often use the computers you see there, or my MSX, so I can get them out of the way really quickly.

yup, first set up i bought was the Raijin - and it does take up a fair amount of real estate. Since then went through owning cabs and now back to supergun (AV7000 )

MUCH prefer the AV7000 - better outputs, more options and better stick/buttons as well as being detachable and much more portable - like you say, not having to sit ontop of the monitor with the arcade board right next to the controller is a big thing.

[Magic Knight]

Yes, the AV9000 has great output options, I use the RGB out to my monitors, which looks amazing, especially compared to the output on a television. One thing to watch out for on televisions is that usually you can't adjust them very easily - height, width, colour balance etc. Back home my television often cut off the top of the playing area, and there was no way to adjust it. With a real arcade monitor this is no problem, similarly with the kind of "hardcore old-school" 80's monitors I have. Plus they were really cheap.

[dcharlie]

actually, slightly off topic but you might know, for the odd game or two i get weird overscanning with the Sony Profeel monitor. There's no obvious external scaling control - theres a V and H sync and if i'm delicate with it i can almost fix things - however, this isn't quite as handy as the Astrocity where you could just rescale everything.

Now, i -know- you can rescale the Profeel - but it looks like it's a "remove the back panel" job - i tried that once and got quite the nasty zap, but there's literally 10s of controllers in there and i don't fancy dying because i can only see 3/4ths of the left side of my chain bar in Dodonpachi.

But just incase you have come across anything like this before

[Magic Knight]

This is what owning PCBs is all about:

Yesterday I decided to have a Namco day.
I started first with my Galaxian PCB, still works great after 31 years. Moved onto Gaplus - graphics problems. Horizontal bars through some of the enemies, I think this is a RAM problem or maybe a custom chip, it's pretty common with Galaga type hardware.

I'd had a message from a guy who sold me Sky Kid Deluxe, so I figured I'd have a go. After five minutes the game "crashed" and I'd no idea why. Took out my Rolling Thunder board, as it has the same hardware. Swapped all ROMs over, Sky Kid was flying fine on it, so I knew the ROMs and unique custom chip were ok.

While swapping back, I broke off a custom chip from the Rolling Thunder. This had given me problems before, it was loose and made the machine reset occasionally. However, now that the chip is off, the game works perfectly! Turns out the chip isn't needed by the game itself, and it has a reset line on it, which presumably caused the problem.

Decided to break off the same chip from Sky Kid DX, it seems to have made a difference, but the game still doesn't start. I'm getting signs of life though. Sky Kid Deluxe is an expensive game, very expensive.

Today, I received a Dragon Spirit. I already have one, but with graphics problems, hence the purchase of another. Turned it on, and... it has the same problems! Now I don't know what to think. Switching over sub-boards on my Splatter House didn't help it. Yes, my Splatter House also has a slight graphics problem.

This is a day (well, two days) in the life of a PCB owner.