XRGB3 - NES/SNES

[teknix1]

Hi all,

I've been reading a lot lately about scan doublers and scalers, etc... I can't say that I understand everything. This board seems very knowledgeable on the subject, so that's why I decided to post here.

Basically I am looking for a solution to the ugly scaled graphics I get when using my SNES or NES on my Panasonic TH46PZ80. Seems like the XRGB3 is a good fit but I'm not completely sure about how to hook up everything properly. This television does not have a dsub input, can I use the DVI and expect everything to work?

I should mention that I live in Canada, so I've got US/NTSC consoles, my TV is obviously North-American too. So to hook up my SNES to the XRGB3, I was thinking of making my own SNES AV to RGB cable (with 220uF caps on the lines), just because the japanese scarts cables seem difficult to get a hold of and because I'll never be sure that it's the right thing.

For the NES, I didn't put much thought into it, I was kind of hoping I could simply plug in the composite cable...

I might decide to plug in my Sega Genesis too... Please keep in mind that I'm really trying to avoid display lag.

Any comment is appreciated.

Thanks
Nic

[Fudoh]

can I use the DVI and expect everything to work?

it will work, but you won't be able to use the scanline emulation and the upscaling isn't lag-free. For those two features you need VGA. You could still use a VGA to HDMI converter behind the XRGB though.

I was thinking of making my own SNES AV to RGB cable (with 220uF caps on the lines)

this should be fine.

For the NES, I didn't put much thought into it, I was kind of hoping I could simply plug in the composite cable...

you can do this, but quality won't be striking. Probably not even better than on your TV set right now. Consider a RGB mod for your NES.

I might decide to plug in my Sega Genesis too...

same as SNES. RGB cables are widely available.

Please keep in mind that I'm really trying to avoid display lag.

Then you should consider using the VGA out of the XRGB.

[teknix1]

Great reply Fudoh, thank you very much. This helps tremendously.

Now I have a few more questions

It will work, but you won't be able to use the scanline emulation and the upscaling isn't lag-free. For those two features you need VGA. You could still use a VGA to HDMI converter behind the XRGB though.

So if I get this right, the DVI output is scaled and the VGA isn't? Or both are scaled but the VGA somehow is faster (Digital vs Analog)? BTW, I do not have VGA connections on my TV either. I do have RGB (PrPbY), I can probably make my own cable to convert VGA to RGB, but can I just take certain pins from one and make the RGB from that?

Then if I don't need the DVI output, perhaps I should simply go with the XRGB2+ and save a few bucks, what do you think? I know the firmware for XRGB3 was translated to english, but I don't know if this is also true for XRGB2+, english would definitely be a lot better for me.

I get the impression the XRGB3 isn't exactly made for televisions but rather computer monitors. It seems to offer resolutions that don't quite match HDTV resolutions. Does it? Will my television give me a hard time with these resolutions?

Thanks in advance
Nic

[Fudoh]

So if I get this right, the DVI output is scaled and the VGA isn't?

the DVI output only works in B0 mode, which is the XRGB-3's scaling mode. The VGA output can be used in B0 and B1, the later on being a pure linedoubler mode.

Or both are scaled but the VGA somehow is faster (Digital vs Analog)?

B1 is basically lag-free. while B0 has a lag of a little more than 2 frames.

I do have RGB (PrPbY), I can probably make my own cable to convert VGA to RGB, but can I just take certain pins from one and make the RGB from that?

no, won't work, sorry.

Then if I don't need the DVI output, perhaps I should simply go with the XRGB2+ and save a few bucks

The XRGB-3 has it's advantages, like more inputs, accepts progressive signals as well etc. It also has the more stable picture.

I get the impression the XRGB3 isn't exactly made for televisions but rather computer monitors.

that's true, all the Micomsoft products are geared towards PC-TFT use. The only way to find out which resolutions your Plasma accepts through it's HDMI port, is to give it a try using your PC. On the other hand, if you plan to use the uscaled VGA output only, then you can rest quite assured that your TV will accept 480p via HDMI.

[teknix1]

Ok, great, thanks! Again, this answers a lot.

So XRGB3 seems to be the way to go, with that I will need a solution to hook it up to my TV. Is mode B0 over HDMI @ 480P also suffering from the 2 frames lag? If not then I can simply use HDMI. I think this is what you meant by your last comment, am I right? If not, I will need a way to convert the RGBVH from the VGA port to RGB (PrPbY). Is this possible without introducing more lag?

Nic

[Fudoh]

Is mode B0 over HDMI @ 480P also suffering from the 2 frames lag?

yes, it does and it also looks terrible. you don't want this B0 works completely different from B1.

If not, I will need a way to convert the RGBVH from the VGA port to RGB (PrPbY). Is this possible without introducing more lag?

you can either use a VGA to Component transcoder or you can use a VGA to HDMI converter. The later ones are cheaper nowadays and usually your TV should have the better picture (and possibly better options like Overscan reduction) using the HDMI input (compared to the YUV inputs).

[teknix1]

I just realized, perhaps I could use one of those VGA to HDMI adapters? Would that work too? Maybe that's what you meant by your last comment?

[teknix1]

Any suggestion for a good "VGA to HDMI converter"? I'm looking at the monoprice ones, seems decent for 30 bucks but there is no mention of lag, etc...

I'm also looking at the accepted inputs on my TV, I'm a little fuzzy about the whole PC framerates and the TV framerates thing. Will the XRGB3 output the same framerate that the input is? Will it convert to 60fps to match what the monitor expects? How does this work with a VGA to HDMI converter? Should I expect to see stuttering sort of like we see when converting PAL to NTSC and vice versa?

Here are the valid resolutions:

Component (Y, PB, PR):
525 (480) / 60i / 15.73KHz / 59.94Hz
525 (480) / 60p / 31.47KHz / 59.94Hz
750 (720) / 60p / 45.00KHz / 59.94Hz
1,125 (1,080) / 60i / 33.75KHz / 59.94Hz

HDMI:
525 (480) / 60i / 15.73KHz / 59.94Hz
525 (480) / 60p / 31.47KHz / 59.94Hz
750 (720) / 60p / 45.00KHz / 59.94Hz
1,125 (1,080) /60i / 33.75KHz / 59.94Hz
1,125 (1,080) / 60p / 67.43KHz / 59.94Hz
1,125 (1,080) / 60p / 67.50KHz / 60.00Hz
1,125(1,080) / 24p / 26.97KHz / 23.98Hz
1,125(1,080) / 24p / 27.00KHz / 24.00Hz

[Fudoh]

These are the two input resolutions you need:

Component (Y, PB, PR):
525 (480) / 60p / 31.47KHz / 59.94Hz

HDMI:
525 (480) / 60p / 31.47KHz / 59.94Hz

The cheaper VGA to HDMI converters don't change anything, it's straight in/out with a simple D/A conversion. PAL isn't really supported by neither the XRGB-3 nor your TV. There's stuff that works, but looking at the compatibily chart of your TV you're out of luck with 50Hz signals.

[teknix1]

Sounds good, I only meant the PAL thing as an example, I really don't have any need for PAL, none of my systems input or output that.

Thanks

[teknix1]

Ok, so it's over a year later and I finally decided to make the jump and bought an XRGB3 (still waiting for it in the mail). My goal for now is to connect my american SNES to it (ordered SCART cable, which I'm giong to modify myself) and play that on my HD TV. Unfortunately, as said before my panasonic TV does not have a VGA input. Fudoh mentioned that I could use a VGA to HDMI/DVI converter. This is all fine, the problem I'm faced with now is which one to buy, I'm really worried about adding more lag to my gaming experience with this device. And I really don't want to degrade the quality that I'm about to get out of the XRGB3. Could someone please suggest a device that I would fit my needs? And possibly comment on the type of degradation the signal might suffer?

Thanks in advance.
Nic

[SGGG2]

I recommend the Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler Plus, to give you an idea B1 mode -- without scanlines enabled, ran through the Gefen looks just like B0 at 1080p! On top of that, the Gefen calms the XRGB3's shaky vertical sync in a major way.

[teknix1]

I've heard of Gefen before. I had forgotten about them.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about B1 mode, I don't have my XRGB3 yet. My understanding is that the XRGB3 can also upscale the frame, are you suggesting that I upscale it using this device instead. My first goal is to get an HDMI output, but I really don't want to pass an opportunity of getting better results.

Thanks
Nic

[SGGG2]

If you want to use scanlines, you're using B1 "linedoubling" mode which outputs VGA analog at 640x480. Most, but not all, TV's upscale this very well. The vertical information embedded in the signal can be very "shaky" and results in small artifacts jumping left and right. The shakyness depends on the console in use and the set.

B0 mode can output over DVI as well at resolutions up to 1080p (or higher, can't remember, the higher the resolution the better the scaling is) and has a rock solid, clear signal. It's fine for 240p (it works with 480i, 480p as well, but I won't get into it) but there's no scanline option.

The Gefen has great Analog to Digital (A/D) conversion and looks fantastic scaling the XRGB's analog VGA B1 signal, it also calms the shakyness to unnoticeable levels. DVI connects to HDMI with a $2 converter or simple cable. And, if you know where to look the price can't be beat!

[BuckoA51]

B0 mode can output over DVI as well at resolutions up to 1080p (or higher, can't remember, the higher the resolution the better the scaling is) and has a rock solid, clear signal. It's fine for 240p (it works with 480i, 480p as well, but I won't get into it) but there's no scanline option.

Probably won't work on his TV though, XRGB3 B0 1080p output has terrible compatibility. Stick to B1 mode through the Gefen, should be all you need (as long as the tearing problem some have does not rear its ugly head!)

[SGGG2]

I agree that B1 through the Gefen is preferable for 240p titles, but B0 looks absolutely fantastic for VGA dreamcast titles; i.e 2D fighters and select 480p titles on other systems such as Gradius V (in conjunction with Xploder/GSM). 1080p may not work but the quality of some of the lower resolutions looks more or less the same.