New shmups need a hook

[Darkseed]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

Gradius V had great gameplay with some awesome graphics. Soukygurentai is another, G-Darius, Psyvariar 2, etc. Alot of Doujins, although sometimes crude, have new gameplay ideas combined with great art.

Cave and the entire shmup fanbase seem to be happy playing the same game over and over instead of demanding fresh, innovative ideas based on the simple, visceral gameplay we love. Even if the gameplay is to remain the same, at least give us some cool eye candy that distinguishes itself from every other game.

I think this is one of the reasons why the shmup genre is so niche. Devs back in the day knew the limitations of the hardware so they had to be more creative in order to create a viable product whereas today, where the skys the limit, most shmup devs wont dare venture outside the generally conservative space of bullet hell shooters.

[Sasupoika]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 versions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

PS2 versions

Hahaha, you are a funny one.

Anyway, that is how they roll. I am not complaining really.

[Darkseed]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 versions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

PS2 versions

Hahaha, you are a funny one.

Sorry, dont own the PCB's. I guess that makes me a peasant whose ideas cant be taken seriously.

[Sasupoika]

They never released ESPgaluda 2 and Mushi Futari on Ps2. You must be talking about their prequels. Sequels are usually pretty similar to each other.
Anyway, yeah, they are pretty similar. But then again, most of shmups are similar to other shmups ( especially made by same company ). This does not only affect shmups but other genres as well.
Final Fantasy etc.

[Dragoforce]

Boogie Wings got a hook.

[Darkseed]

They never released ESPgaluda 2 and Mushi Futari on Ps2. You must be talking about their prequels.
Anyway, yeah, they are pretty similar. But then again, most of shmups are similar to other shmups ( especially made by same company ). This does not only affect shmups but other genres as well.
Final Fantasy etc.

Umm ok. I figured you guys would know what I meant by PS2 versions.

Final Fantasy is actually a perfect example of what I was trying to say.

The underlying, fundamental combat system people love stays but they always change how we interface with it so it feels fresh. The art style and theme changes with each iteration. Compare FF9 to 13 (or any 2 chapters in the series) and you have 2 vastly different games even though the core mechanics are almost the same.

[Udderdude]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

Gradius V had great gameplay with some awesome graphics. Soukygurentai is another, G-Darius, Psyvariar 2, etc. Alot of Doujins, although sometimes crude, have new gameplay ideas combined with great art.

Cave and the entire shmup fanbase seem to be happy playing the same game over and over instead of demanding fresh, innovative ideas based on the simple, visceral gameplay we love. Even if the gameplay is to remain the same, at least give us some cool eye candy that distinguishes itself from every other game.

I think this is one of the reasons why the shmup genre is so niche. Devs back in the day knew the limitations of the hardware so they had to be more creative in order to create a viable product whereas today, where the skys the limit, most shmup devs wont dare venture outside the generally conservative space of bullet hell shooters.

You have no clue what you're talking about, HTH HAND

[xris]

In.
Try Shoot 1up, it's something new.
Haven't gotten my copy yet, but Esp2 BL sounds pretty out of the norm.

[Darkseed]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

Gradius V had great gameplay with some awesome graphics. Soukygurentai is another, G-Darius, Psyvariar 2, etc. Alot of Doujins, although sometimes crude, have new gameplay ideas combined with great art.

Cave and the entire shmup fanbase seem to be happy playing the same game over and over instead of demanding fresh, innovative ideas based on the simple, visceral gameplay we love. Even if the gameplay is to remain the same, at least give us some cool eye candy that distinguishes itself from every other game.

I think this is one of the reasons why the shmup genre is so niche. Devs back in the day knew the limitations of the hardware so they had to be more creative in order to create a viable product whereas today, where the skys the limit, most shmup devs wont dare venture outside the generally conservative space of bullet hell shooters.

You have no clue what you're talking about, HTH HAND

Well, it seems the shmup community is just as conservative as the Modern Warfare fans.

[emphatic]

You had me at Seriously.

[Rob]

Umm ok. I figured you guys would know what I meant by PS2 versions.

I knew what you meant. It's true that Cave is too boring for $70 a game. You should've known this before buying Galuda 2.

[Drum]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

Gradius V had great gameplay with some awesome graphics. Soukygurentai is another, G-Darius, Psyvariar 2, etc. Alot of Doujins, although sometimes crude, have new gameplay ideas combined with great art.

Cave and the entire shmup fanbase seem to be happy playing the same game over and over instead of demanding fresh, innovative ideas based on the simple, visceral gameplay we love. Even if the gameplay is to remain the same, at least give us some cool eye candy that distinguishes itself from every other game.

I think this is one of the reasons why the shmup genre is so niche. Devs back in the day knew the limitations of the hardware so they had to be more creative in order to create a viable product whereas today, where the skys the limit, most shmup devs wont dare venture outside the generally conservative space of bullet hell shooters.

You have no clue what you're talking about, HTH HAND

Well, it seems the shmup community is just as conservative as the Modern Warfare fans.

Ugh.

There is one germ of a point buried under all the passive-aggressive douchery: the shmup is a pretty codified genre. I think only rhythm games and (arguably) fighting games are more 'samey'.
On the other hand, just about every shmup series I can think of has a novel hook that sets it apart somehow, however cosmetically and structurally similar the games appear to be, so that's a real weird angle to attack.

[chempop]

Small and sublet changes in details are all most people want in a sequel (sequels are if you want more of the same anyway, otherwise buy a different game). Usually there is one fairly distinct new game-play mechanic added to complicate thing, DOJ added Hypers, Futari fixed the scoring system, Galuda2 added Zesshikai, Deathsmiles 2X is going to be very different from what I gather.

I also own both Mushi and Galuda on PS2, but compared to the 360 sequels I find them both prehistoric. Also, Galuda2 ha Black Label in the title, you try that mode? It is nothing like the first Galuda.

Gradius V had great gameplay with some awesome graphics. Soukygurentai is another, G-Darius, Psyvariar 2, etc.

Yup, those some shmups alright, I don't really catch your drift though. Gradius series has not changed since the original, what almost 25 years ago? Souky was Raizings successful attempt at the Rayforce mechanic...
Are you trying to say that these games did or didn't add a "hook"...

[Darkseed]

I have one suggestion:

Why not incorporate a system where instaed of giving the player unlimited continues in the hopes that if hes hardcore enough he'll restrict himself to 1 credit, the game auto saves after each boss fight, thus ENCOURAGING the player to redo the level perfectly if they die.

Or how about a weapon reward system similar to Gradius PSP where you can save anywhere but if you die you lose everything thus encouraging the player to WANT to start the level over in order to have maximum firepower (and eye candy).

I know this sounds like I just want them to be more casual and maybe so but I think the genre needs to evolve a bit from the sport-like mentality in order to attract new fans.

[Darkseed]

Small and sublet changes in details are all most people want in a sequel (sequels are if you want more of the same anyway, otherwise buy a different game). Usually there is one fairly distinct new game-play mechanic added to complicate thing, DOJ added Hypers, Futari fixed the scoring system, Galuda2 added Zesshikai, Deathsmiles 2X is going to be very different from what I gather.

I also own both Mushi and Galuda on PS2, but compared to the 360 sequels I find them both prehistoric. Also, Galuda2 ha Black Label in the title, you try that mode? It is nothing like the first Galuda.

Gradius V had great gameplay with some awesome graphics. Soukygurentai is another, G-Darius, Psyvariar 2, etc.

Yup, those some shmups alright, I don't really catch your drift though. Gradius series has not changed since the original, what almost 25 years ago? Souky was Raizings successful attempt at the Rayforce mechanic...
Are you trying to say that these games did or didn't add a "hook"...

Gradius at least from an artistic point has evolved with each iteration. Souky, although inspired by Rayforce, took that style and added increadible art combined with a substantially different take on the lock on mechanic.

[Twiddle]

kill yourself

[ncp]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan.

Seriously, picked up Half-Life and damn this is the same exact game as Goldeneye with slight changes that are barely noticable to all but the most hardcore FPS fan.

fake edit: I chuckled at implying there is more artistic variation between Gradius games than between Mushi 1 and 2.

[BIL]

Gradius V's art was definitely not its strong point. III and Gaiden kick its 70% Mechanical Base ass in that department.

[xris]

Auto saving does not lead to a 1cc. If anything it may prevent multiple play throughs. I tend to play checkpont memorizors alot less. Weapon saves also suck.

[Darkseed]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan.

Seriously, picked up Half-Life and damn this is the same exact game as Goldeneye with slight changes that are barely noticable to all but the most hardcore FPS fan.

fake edit: I chuckled at implying there is more artistic variation between Gradius games than between Mushi 1 and 2.

I think a better example would be the Modern Warfare games but I get your point.

I think there is a more of a variation between Gradius 1-5 than in most bullet hell games period.

[Kollision]

Seriously, picked up Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda 2 and damn these are the same exact games as the PS2 vesions with slight changes that are barely noticeable to all but the most hardcore shmup fan. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but also artistically.

I see your point, at least regarding Mushihimesama.
The sequel is not an exact rehash of the original game though. Don't get me wrong, guys, I love Futari, but I also feel there could've been more diversity design-wise.

I also own both Mushi and Galuda on PS2, but compared to the 360 sequels I find them both prehistoric.

IMO that's not true at all.
Both are excellent games on their own right. They play great, and I still have lots of random fun with Mushi from time to time.

[Danbo]

Why not incorporate a system where instaed of giving the player unlimited continues in the hopes that if hes hardcore enough he'll restrict himself to 1 credit, the game auto saves after each boss fight, thus ENCOURAGING the player to redo the level perfectly if they die.

that just turns it into monkeys at typewriters and would alienate most of us, turning it into that from what a 1cc is which is a consistent and confident display of skill

does this place always have threads about how to noob the genre up? seems like it

but yeah there's pretty much similar differences between the average modern shmup and the average modern fps, they might seem smaller because shmups are generally smaller games. newcomers to the genre generally don't recognise these differences, much like how your grandmother would have difficulty telling apart the gameplay of half-life 2 and crysis or something. and a sequel is supposed to be similar to the game it's based off, that's the point of a sequel...

[Sasupoika]

Why not incorporate a system where instaed of giving the player unlimited continues in the hopes that if hes hardcore enough he'll restrict himself to 1 credit, the game auto saves after each boss fight, thus ENCOURAGING the player to redo the level perfectly if they die.

You save money just by using one credit.
Seriously, it is a custom in tournaments and such to only use just one credit. No continues. There is a reason for this.
It is why shmups are enjoyable. If you die too many times. Game over, no saves. Seriously. That is the very point. Being on the edge.

Or how about a weapon reward system similar to Gradius PSP where you can save anywhere but if you die you lose everything thus encouraging the player to WANT to start the level over in order to have maximum firepower (and eye candy).

I... Just what? Seriously? Saving in shmup is horrible idea. It is like allowing golfer to try again to get hole in one. Savestating is bad when it is not for practising.

I know this sounds like I just want them to be more casual and maybe so but I think the genre needs to evolve a bit from the sport-like mentality in order to attract new fans.

That is not point in shmups. Competition is very, very important aspect. It encourages players to improve their scores and survival.

[Drum]

Souky, although inspired by Rayforce, took that style and added incredible art combined with a substantially different take on the lock on mechanic.

wat

[Darkseed]

Souky, although inspired by Rayforce, took that style and added incredible art combined with a substantially different take on the lock on mechanic.

wat

Graphics and music. Especially shines on PSP.

[Twiddle]

Souky, although inspired by Rayforce, took that style and added incredible art combined with a substantially different take on the lock on mechanic.

wat

Graphics and music. Especially shines on PSP.

go play crysis

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Final Fantasy is actually a perfect example of what I was trying to say.

The underlying, fundamental combat system faggy-ass simpletons love stays but they always change how we interface with it so it feels fresh. The art style and theme changes with each iteration. Compare FF9 to 13 (or any 2 chapters in the series) and you have 2 vastly different games even though the core mechanics are almost the same.

fixed

[Dandy J]

sokyugurentai is one of the uglist motherfuckin games i ever play and its boring as shit too

[Rob]

And Rayforce has a better soundtrack.

[chempop]

chempop wrote:
I also own both Mushi and Galuda on PS2, but compared to the 360 sequels I find them both prehistoric.

IMO that's not true at all.
Both are excellent games on their own right. They play great, and I still have lots of random fun with Mushi from time to time

I didn't mean it in a bad way, but from a glance you can easily see the shiny improvements that the sequels have.