Best engine to create 90's style vertical shmup?

[Wayward]

What's the best game engine out there to create a 90's style vertical shmup ala Strikers etc.?

[EddyMRA]

When used properly, Game Maker can perfectly handle Psikyo-type shmups, Seibu-type shmups, and even Cave-type shmups. It's what I use for Xeno Fighters EX-R, which uses elements from all three styles.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

There isn't really a best engine.
It is best to just dive in and start coding. Your own engine is always going to be the best engine.

[louisg]

It depends what you're coding in, or if you're coding at all, really. Shmups tend to be pretty simple compared to even something like a platformer: no complex physics, not much scripting needed if any, straightforward hit detection, etc. So, you can really do it with very few features.

Were you planning on coding it in C/C++ or something else?

[Wayward]

In all seriousness, I have no idea where to begin.

What sort of basics I should know before making my first shmup? Which software or anything should I start with to make a first vert-shmup?

[worstplayer]

If you absolutely don't know how to program, Game Maker does everything you need for a shmup. Of course programming with drag&drop logic bricks takes considerably longer than just writing the code, but it's good enough for a start.

[Wayward]

Is it possible to import original art or designs of ships, characters etc. into the Game Maker?

[worstplayer]

Of course. It can use any bitmap as sprite, in latest version it also supports alpha channels. Sound is a little bit more complicated. Mp3 and midi playback is very limited, but .wav works just fine.

[TMR]

i made me first likkle shoot 'em up with GM8 t'other day (further info over here - its very short, the collisions are harsh but i deliberately set out to use "simple mode" for everything and had to abuse the object system a bit to simulate time lines) and i'll be honest, up until i decided to have a prod at it about a week back i'd previously been a little "snobbish" about the thing; i'm perfectly capable of programming in five or six different languages including 6502 assembler, so i'd thought "it's a point-and-click system, it can't be much cop". i'll happily admit to being wrong on that one...

After the celebrations at midnight last night, i settled down with GM8 and a couple of cans of cider and spent a happy three hours trying to do a Touhou style boss battle with reasonably good results. As with any development environment, there are shite games out there (i've been wandering through the YoyoGames site this morning and there's a lot of chaff to go with the wheat there) but you'll get good results if you put time and effort in.

[monkeyman]

I'll give another vote for game maker as, like me, it sounds like you have little to no prior experience with programming. The drag and drop system can be a little ungainly at times but it's simple to use and can be made to do pretty much anything you may need for a shmup with a little work. That said, if you take the time to learn the GML scripting language things get much easier.

Best of all, you should be able to do pretty much anything you will need using the free 'lite' version so give it a try.

[ZacharyB]

If GameMakerLanguage is used instead of the drag-and-drop system, does the processing speed increase?

[TMR]

If GameMakerLanguage is used instead of the drag-and-drop system, does the processing speed increase?

Depends on how well the GML is written really, i remember reading that since about GM7 the drag and drop system essentially works from a series of pre-defined GML subroutines anyway, so it's more about how optimal those are than anything - if you're good enough to out code the developers (and they're writing generic routines, in theory at least a job-specific block of code can be faster) it could well be quicker. Further reading (i spent the gap between Christmas and New Year looking quite closely at Game Maker generally, i have an obsessive nature...) said that GM8 is around three times the speed of GM7 for logic in "real world" terms as well but draws objects at the same speed. i haven't even started truly hammer it yet myself but this...



...was done almost purely from the standard GM8 drag and drop interface (there's a little GML scripting here and there) and runs every frame on the 1.7GHz box with onboard video that i use for testing, even when the "fake particle" explosions are going for gold and it's lobbing a new nasty object into play once every couple of frames.

[EddyMRA]

Here's what advanced GML scripting can produce (made in Game Maker 8 ): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuHqZnZz7_8

[replayme]

Here's what advanced GML scripting can produce (made in Game Maker 8 ): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuHqZnZz7_8

yeah, but what i'd like to know is... will Steam accept a really good GM maker game as part of its store portfolio?

[Kaspal]

i really dont know if they'd accept a projct made in GM8 ... but if its polished enough (like Alluros games), i think its worth givin a try and send them a copy, and see what happens.

but, usually, ppl who makes games in GMx do it for fun, not for profit.

[replayme]

see, i don't know if it is worth contracting a developer to make a shmup for you, or for you to just do it all by yourself - thus taking infinitely longer, and ensuring that the project doesn't live up to critical scrutiny as it will take you years to get anywhere (including learning how to program).

please tell me that game maker allows you to get good results in a year or two...

and what would you suggest?

[Rozyrg]

please tell me that game maker allows you to get good results in a year or two...

Absolutely. Having a finished, polished, sell-able product in that timeframe is another thing, though.

I guess it would depend on how much you can do on your own as well your general stick-to-it-iveness (and making games takes quite a bit of that!)

[TMR]

see, i don't know if it is worth contracting a developer to make a shmup for you

Contracting someone else to produce your game design has terrible odds for success; the programmers involved may simply not "get" the subject matter and make a total arse of things, even with "professionally"-developed code there's absolutely no guarantee the thing'll be taken onto Steam and depending on who is doing the code it could well cost too much to the point where you'll never break even, let alone turn a profit.

or for you to just do it all by yourself - thus taking infinitely longer, and ensuring that the project doesn't live up to critical scrutiny as it will take you years to get anywhere (including learning how to program).

i wouldn't have said it ensured that a project wouldn't live up to critical scrutiny, after all there are some one and two person projects on Steam already like Space Giraffe (made pretty much by two people) or Bullet Candy (just the one), so talented, small teams can make something that gets that level of attention.

please tell me that game maker allows you to get good results in a year or two...

It can produce some very good results like Alluro is doing with Xeno Fighters EX-R or oddbob's SY!NSO! 2 but, as with any development tool, those results are reliant on the person using the tool being good at what they're doing and putting time and effort into the work.

[Udderdude]

I feel like Gamemaker is like most game making tools. Good for making relatively simple stuff, but as the complexity ramps up it becomes more about working around shortcomings in the game tool. So I guess the question really is, how complex and different from your standard shooter are you planning to make? If it's pretty much "McShooter", then Gamemaker will work fine. If you're trying to do something crazy or completely different, you might be better off with a more multi-purpose tool like Java, C/C++ or similar.

[replayme]

my source of inspiaration are axelay, einhander, radiant silvergun and ikaruga.

good quality mcshooters with good graphics and sound - especially the sound.

i'm intrigued by games like rez and audiosurf as they utilise sound to give a new gameplay experience.

[TMR]

my source of inspiaration are axelay, einhander, radiant silvergun and ikaruga.

good quality mcshooters with good graphics and sound - especially the sound.

Three out of those four are probably closer to the expensive end of the "pay someone to build it" scale becuase they're essentially running 2D from a 3D engine; Game Maker does have 3D support but it's locked away in the Pro version and i'm unsure how good it actually is under pressure.

What exactly is your motivation though, to get a game on Steam and be the next Jonathan Blow (if you're bankrolling it yourself, that's always possible!) for the fame/groupies or produce a specific game design you already have?

[Udderdude]

axelay, einhander, radiant silvergun and ikaruga.

good quality mcshooters.

I hate to break it to you, but out of those, the closest any of them comes to McShooter status is Axelay.

[replayme]

my source of inspiaration are axelay, einhander, radiant silvergun and ikaruga.

good quality mcshooters with good graphics and sound - especially the sound.

Three out of those four are probably closer to the expensive end of the "pay someone to build it" scale becuase they're essentially running 2D from a 3D engine; Game Maker does have 3D support but it's locked away in the Pro version and i'm unsure how good it actually is under pressure.

What exactly is your motivation though, to get a game on Steam and be the next Jonathan Blow (if you're bankrolling it yourself, that's always possible!) for the fame/groupies or produce a specific game design you already have?

have you seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3oLX_u375k? take a look. i also interviewed the developer and you can see the results via my site (in my sig).

EDIT: the motivation is to get a game on steam and be the next jonathan blow.

[TMR]

Three out of those four are probably closer to the expensive end of the "pay someone to build it" scale becuase they're essentially running 2D from a 3D engine; Game Maker does have 3D support but it's locked away in the Pro version and i'm unsure how good it actually is under pressure.

have you seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3oLX_u375k? take a look. i also interviewed the developer and you can see the results via my site (in my sig).

Well, that's at least a sort-of-answer for you, it's a tad hard to compare what's in the video to the overheads for a shoot 'em up but the info says that he's taken four years so far so there's a rough benchmark; at most i'd guess (and it really is a guess at this stage) you perhaps can knock a year off because the music won't need to be as varied and a fixed-direction game doesn't need the bits of the world that doesn't get seen to be modelled, but it depends on who is doing the work as well...

[replayme]

kind of figured that i'll either be learning gamer maker (gml) or c# (along with xna and unity)

[ZacharyB]

kind of figured that i'll either be learning gamer maker (gml) or c# (along with xna and unity)

Whichever one you choose, it won't hurt. I learned some php for my website and the state of mind I needed in order to write code in another program became more sophisticated.

Programming languages are all kind of similar. Get good in one and you'll be able to carry over that perspective you developed into the next one. It's very handy.

[replayme]

kind of figured that i'll either be learning gamer maker (gml) or c# (along with xna and unity)

Whichever one you choose, it won't hurt. I learned some php for my website and the state of mind I needed in order to write code in another program became more sophisticated.

Programming languages are all kind of similar. Get good in one and you'll be able to carry over that perspective you developed into the next one. It's very handy.

cool, i'm off to work in a moment. i'll be taking my bro's c# book along with me...

[ShmupSamurai]

For game dev, Shmups in particular, I use TGF(The Games Factory) by ClickTeam.

Very easy to learn...and is ALOT more flexible than most peps think.Especially when you have years of TGF exp under ur belt.

[replayme]

can Game Maker do Crimzon Clover?

and what do you guys think of xna game studio in comparison?

personally: it's either game maker or c#/xna/unity.

what method would you use to get your game on steam (even though the results aren't guaranteed)?

and to complicate matters, i just saw this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMb5Q4GDb4w#

[TMR]

can Game Maker do Crimzon Clover?

From what i've seen it'd be able to do a reasonable facsimile as long as the registered version of GM were used and a fair bit of GML employed... one issue might be machine speed, GML is relatively slow since it's interpreted rather than compiled so that many objects will take some CPU resources.

and what do you guys think of xna game studio in comparison?

personally: it's either game maker or c#/xna/unity.

That's a bit like asking what the difference between a complete but unfurnished house and a large pile of bricks is really - Game Maker doesn't do all the work but hides the more tedious jobs away such as object management whilst C# with the XNA framework is a programming language so the work isn't done for you, but you get the flexibility of defining objects how you want 'em defined. As someone who has coded for (oh dear) about a quarter of a century, i'm sort of obliged to say the programming language is better because of that flexibility, even before i've personally tried it (i'm trying to "broaden my mind" by experimenting with different programming languages and XNA is on my "to do" list, although right now i'm knobbing around with DarkBasic Pro and having it hate me) but it's nowhere near as clear cut.

i'm guessing you've got either no previous programming experience or a minimal level and my stock advice for people in that boat is not to worry about some large, complicated dream project or getting a game onto Steam or XBLIG or whatever at this point, instead start simple and build on that - don't think small as such, but going into a large project whilst simultaneously learning a new language will multiply the difficulty level significantly.

Even if you don't plan to use it later, starting out with Game Maker will teach some good fundamentals about object oriented programming and GML isn't too far off other high level languages as far as commands go.

what method would you use to get your game on steam (even though the results aren't guaranteed)?

Sexual favours, or failing that blackmail.