Is Microsoft forcing Cave to make a better product?

[evil_ash_xero]

I know that the shmup guys at that game show were griping about Microsoft's rules. Are they kind of forcing Cave to rework the graphics, and have all these game modes(with free play, and not one credit) to be on the 360?

If so, good. These extras are really making these games a good bit better.

[WarBovine]

That's the intent of the rules, at least. Some people seem to think that Microsoft rejects things just because they are spiteful and evil; but the reality is that they are at least trying to keep XBLA, and to lesser extent the disc-based stuff, from being a shit-filled dump. (Which is where the Community/Indie games are right now.) Whether they are succeeding or not is a matter of much debate. Personally, I happen to like games that display at greater than 480i...

[sven666]

well microsoft didnt really put it that way, they just refused CAVE ports for XBLA which in turn forced CAVE to make proper disc release ports in order to fight their way into the console market.

in hindsight it was the best thing that could have happened (as im sure CAVE themselves are starting to find out aswell) but it could just as easily have meant CAVE stopped bothering with the console market altogether..

[E. Randy Dupre]

Yet again, until I see proof of that from a first-hand source other than the 5pb fool, I'm not going to take it as any kind of truth.

[EPS21]

At least they don't have the same policy as Sony with their "if it doesn't look next-gen, we won't publish your game" mentality. All the shmups would end up on the Wii or PS2, inferior consoles in terms of power and might not emulate todays high res shmups as well, or at all.

Free play has always been enabled on nearly every shmup out there, if not available at first, unlocked after failing at the game in x amount of times, these are console releases we're talking about. You pay for all of the game up front (well, not so true with today's DLC bullshit) and to not alienate those who are bad at the games or who like the idea of infinite credits, they put it in there.

Having a high res mode is great feature I hope becomes standard issue in all ports of non high res games, as it gives a nice look for HDTV users, without the giant pixelation of stretching the game to actually fit your screen. And so long as they keep the original arcade graphics intact in a seperate mode, it makes everyone happy.

It's a win/win situation for everyone, except for maybe CAVE as it's extra work for them . But if they care for the quality of their releases (which they do without a doubt) they would have done it anyways. Which they have for DS, and looking at all the modes for futari, the future looks bright.

[agustusx]

well i don't think DS would be as appealing without the high res mode. Even on a CRT arcade mode isn't the hotest thing for me(cause I don't have a truly low rez crt). I think the same applies to Mushi Futari. Only difference is I wanted Mushi any way I could get it, including saving for the pcb...

Anyway, I would agree that it seems things have turned out for the better. If Cave can release all the games they have mentioned I will be a happy camper for years.

[Cuilan]

Yet again, until I see proof of that from a first-hand source other than the 5pb fool, I'm not going to take it as any kind of truth.

This.

People always jump to conclusions whenever the whole XBLA thing between 5pb and MS is brought up. I'm pretty sure 5pb was lying. Otherwise, the recent XBLA releases of MotW and KoF98UM (for example) never would have happened.

[Raizen1984]

well i don't think DS would be as appealing without the high res mode. Even on a CRT arcade mode isn't the hotest thing for me(cause I don't have a truly low rez crt).

The arcade mode in Death Smiles looks terrible regardless of which TV you use it on. I still don't know why they did that (I guess to draw more attention to the hi-res mode, but why include the arcade mode at all?)

[BulletMagnet]

The arcade mode in Death Smiles looks terrible regardless of which TV you use it on. I still don't know why they did that (I guess to draw more attention to the hi-res mode, but why include the arcade mode at all?)

If nothing else, the gameplay rules in "360" mode were slightly different as well (i.e. you could activate "super mode" or whatever it's called before your counter was at 1000). Anyways, it doesn't look too bad on a standard-def display, imo.

[evil_ash_xero]

I meant Free Play in the extra modes.

At least they don't have the same policy as Sony with their "if it doesn't look next-gen, we won't publish your game" mentality. All the shmups would end up on the Wii or PS2, inferior consoles in terms of power and might not emulate todays high res shmups as well, or at all.

Free play has always been enabled on nearly every shmup out there, if not available at first, unlocked after failing at the game in x amount of times, these are console releases we're talking about. You pay for all of the game up front (well, not so true with today's DLC bullshit) and to not alienate those who are bad at the games or who like the idea of infinite credits, they put it in there.

Having a high res mode is great feature I hope becomes standard issue in all ports of non high res games, as it gives a nice look for HDTV users, without the giant pixelation of stretching the game to actually fit your screen. And so long as they keep the original arcade graphics intact in a seperate mode, it makes everyone happy.

It's a win/win situation for everyone, except for maybe CAVE as it's extra work for them . But if they care for the quality of their releases (which they do without a doubt) they would have done it anyways. Which they have for DS, and looking at all the modes for futari, the future looks bright.

[Elixir]

I still believe 5pb lied about the Microsoft issue to gain publicity, but it's still a very grey area and nobody knows for sure. And it's probably going to stay that way.

As much as people in this thread like to believe, this is not quality control. You have shit like Metal Slug 3, Garou, Fatal Fury, KoF98UM, Megadrive roms, games with horrible netcode, and games with inaccessible achievements that require you to do x thing with people online, when the communities are dead within a month or two. Barely playable games with HQ2X filters have passed Microsoft's "quality control" to get on XBLA and sell for 800 each. It's terrible.

Even if Microsoft did reject Ketsui/DOJBL for XBLA release, it must have been for a good reason. Hi, we're an eroge distributor with barely any game history and no porting experience, but we'd like to put these highly desirable games on XBLA. If I was MS, I would probably reject them too.

[adversity1]

People always jump to conclusions whenever the whole XBLA thing between 5pb and MS is brought up. I'm pretty sure 5pb was lying. Otherwise, the recent XBLA releases of MotW and KoF98UM (for example) never would have happened.

5pb are idiots but MS has changed its XBLA rules over time. For instance, it was only after a ton of lobbying that they changed the max game capacity so that SFII Turbo Remix could be downloaded. After the 360 launch went sour in Japan and they desperately needed new content, I would not be surprised if they eased restrictions so that down on their luck devs like SNK could get their games up and satisfy that core gamer contingent.

[cody]

At least they don't have the same policy as Sony with their "if it doesn't look next-gen, we won't publish your game" mentality.

Uh, what policy is this again?





Yup, looks like a couple of generic next-genUE3brownHDRbloom games to me

All the shmups would end up on the Wii or PS2, inferior consoles in terms of power and might not emulate todays high res shmups as well, or at all.

Superior consoles in terms of being able to actually output 240p. What was the last decent high-res arcade shmup release? Under Defeat, over three years ago?

[EPS21]

Pretty much anything post SH-3 hardware. Mamorukun, Raiden IV, Shiki3, Senko no Ronde, pretty much all the recent non-Cave ports released on the 360.

[gs68]

As much as people in this thread like to believe, this is not quality control. You have shit like Metal Slug 3, Garou, Fatal Fury, KoF98UM, Megadrive roms, games with horrible netcode, and games with inaccessible achievements that require you to do x thing with people online, when the communities are dead within a month or two. Barely playable games with HQ2X filters have passed Microsoft's "quality control" to get on XBLA and sell for 800 each. It's terrible.

or, or, achievements where you can just credit feed.

All those "beat the game" achievements on shmups with infinite credits? It's that one Simpsons game's "press start" achievement, only it takes longer and with more presses of Start.

[yyr]

ut the reality is that they are at least trying to keep XBLA, and to lesser extent the disc-based stuff, from being a shit-filled dump. (Which is where the Community/Indie games are right now.)

I kind of resent that.

If you have some free time, go try some of the Indie Games in the Top Rated category. (Or mine, but I'm trying not to advertise) I challenge you to come back when you're done and then honestly tell me that you still believe it's a shit-filled dump. There is shit there, yes, but there is also quality.

Indie Games is kind of the polar opposite of the console manufacturers' restrictions, because virtually nothing is restricted. I believe that if the manufacturers relaxed these restrictions, you'd get something similar to Indie Games...a lot of crap but also some unique, original and fun things that you would not have found elsewhere, or believed to be commercially viable.

The manufacturers are not likely to relax their restrictions anytime soon, but there is still Indie Games...and soon, there will be at least one high-quality shmup on there, from the looks of things.

[Taylor]

You only have to look at some of the shovelware made for both consoles to know the idea they will not allow something that is not good enough, or not next-gen enough, is absurd.

[WarBovine]

If you have some free time, go try some of the Indie Games in the Top Rated category. (Or mine, but I'm trying not to advertise) I challenge you to come back when you're done and then honestly tell me that you still believe it's a shit-filled dump. There is shit there, yes, but there is also quality.

So in return, try to justify the other half of the games that make it on to the "Top Downloads" list. I'm not saying every game on XBCG is crap, there are definitely some good ones, and some that I am keenly awaiting. (<-This means you, Duality ZF...) But for every good game, there are going to be a dozen 'Massage' apps, "Fart Machine II: Revenge of the Farts", and fireplace simulators. And those are just bad concepts, don't even get into poorly designed/implemented/programmed games. Until the rating system came around, there wasn't even an easy way to distinguish between the crap and the diamonds in the rough. I appologize if I offended you, I'm not trying to imply that all the games (or your games for that matter) are crap. But without any quality control, the overall theme of XBCG is mediocrity, and it's going to take a lot of time for the service to mature into something else.

You only have to look at some of the shovelware made for both consoles to know the idea they will not allow something that is not good enough, or not next-gen enough, is absurd.

In Microsoft's defense, it's not a case of looking at every game and deciding whether it is good enough to let on the service. Certain terms of service are created; rules that try to ensure a certain level of quality is achieved. The early XBLA was filled with releases that were nothing more than arcade rom + crappy emulator; for better or worse they apparently decided to make a rule that straight arcade-to-XBLA ports were banned. It doesn't all ways work, as Elixir pointed out, you can simply add a scaler, netcode and call it a day. But at least XBLA is more than a crappy copy of MAME with $5-$20 roms for sale (even if some games end up being slightly-scaled, crappy MAME-clone with built-in net-support).

Again, the intent, not the result, is quality control. A boardroom full of suits creates a bunch of rules to try make sure that overall, XBLA isn't full of crap. You can argue that they failed miserably, sure, but that was the intent at least.

In Sony's defence, Sony's upper-management seem to be filled with flaky psychotics, so no-one can ever be certain what they are really trying to accomplish.

[t0yrobo]

So in return, try to justify the other half of the games that make it on to the "Top Downloads" list. I

Sadly the reason is pretty simple. 75%+ of gamers are drooling idiots that will play just about anything that sounds cool when you talk about it with your idiot friends. Come to think of it that's the problem with most entertainment media.

[keropi]

IF Cave was allowed to publish their games via XBLA , then - most chances are that - we the poor EU based people would be able to play them as well...

[gray117]

Microsoft has an agenda that they believe will make them money. They maybe giants but they have a certain throughput and will always want to maximise their return on that throughput - especially if its going to be marketed indirectly.

Indie and XBLA are managed very differently.

The indie environment is in fact an incredibly brave effort on microsoft's side. It is also a massive future investment and tool for capitilising on emerging talent and means of education (that is a very under-estimated and lucrative market to tap into)... so you know, don't worry they'll be getting a lot out of it. It's quite a credit to them that they've managed to sell it to consumers as a source for games (which in turn of course is a great motivator for the developers there - and this is a very legit source of talent/experience not just for programmers but also art, design and even critique).

XBLA is different. These games they do vet. Also the developer will be paying them for this, rights, tools and profit sharing. XBLA is microsoft acting as a distributer and publisher for game developers - they are still very much fostering the xbox live as a service and a brand. In this respect they will have their own targets. It was a policy to refuse arcade ports as this was seen as a bad value proposition to consumers, flooding the market, and a diluting of the perceived value of xbla and xbl as a service. They did also have an ambition to be seen as innovative (sure steam got there first but ...) and they were/are desperate to take away from PSN's reputation as the market for experimental genius... this they largerly achevied with Braid so the focus on this has lessened somewhat - as long as Braid continues to stay high in the charts. However, if you have a related back catalogue and a disc based game that either they want to sell or [even better] has sold already sold well - they WILL change/bend policy for you since you now represent a much better partner for xbl.

Ultimately as xbl matures and Cave's profile raises ... I remain hopeful...

[Elixir]

There's also the issue of being unable to play Indie titles unless you're logged into Xbox Live. Dead service = no game.

If they fix that, I might start giving them a second look. Until then, no matter how good they get, forget it.

[Momijitsuki]

Yeah, that really bothers me with XBLA. I don't always have internet accessible when I play, so it's annoying that I can't play the games I paid for, just the lousy demos.

[E. Randy Dupre]

That's only a minority of XBLA games. Elixir was talking about the Community/Indie games, none of which can be played if your console isn't online.

[GaijinPunch]

The arcade mode in Death Smiles looks terrible regardless of which TV you use it on. )

True, but it plays accurately. That's likely why they left it in. They should've thrown a scanlines filter in though, totally.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think the question is really "Is Cave forcing Microsoft to make a better console?"

We all have extensive experience with slowdown, it ramps up smooth and it ramps down smooth

[spadgy]

the whole XBLA thing between 5pb and MS

This is the whole MS 'decided to cut down faithful arcade ports,' line from MS right? I rather lost track of the Ketsui/DDPDOJBLEX thread!

On the issue in question, I agree with sven666. If what MS did was force CAVE and its publishers to show they could make the grade with boxed console releases (something I feel Deathsmiles has done), then that's a great thing...

[Ghegs]

Moved the posts relating to the Triggerheart problems into their own thread.

[the2bears]

Haha... Microsoft forcing someone to make a better product. The irony is rich with this one

Bill

[yyr]

So in return, try to justify the other half of the (Xbox LIVE Indie Games) that make it on to the "Top Downloads" list.

Guess what? Someone, or some team, at Microsoft, choose every week or so which games to "feature." These "featured" games are displayed prominently on the dashboard outside of all the categories (you only need to enter the Indie Games category to see them; you don't need to actually click on "Browse" or "New Releases" or whatever).

We have no idea what their criteria are for choosing which games to feature. All I know is that they chose to feature that awful Fart Machine II. Featured games always get more exposure (and therefore downloads) than non-featured games, and therefore almost always make the Most Popular list. Heck, some games have been on the Featured list for several weeks or more, with no apparent explanation as to why, and no regard for their quality. Maybe it's one person...maybe a team of chimps. The world may never know.

Yeah, that really bothers me with XBLA. I don't always have internet accessible when I play, so it's annoying that I can't play the games I paid for, just the lousy demos.

This has nothing to do with XBLA; no XBLA games specifically have this restriction AFAIK. This is likely a DRM restriction, common to 100% of Xbox LIVE content.

If you use any purchased content on a DIFFERENT Xbox 360 than the one you purchased it on, you have to be signed into Xbox LIVE to be able to use that content. This is to prevent piracy. The content may be used in two ways: 1) online or offline by any user of the console on which it was originally purchased, or 2) by the original purchaser of the content, while connected to XBL, on ANY Xbox 360.

If you (specifically: your Gamertag) have purchased content across multiple consoles and would like to transfer all of your licenses to one console (for example, if you sent your 360 in for repair and a different console was returned to you...or if you sold your old 360 and got a new one) you may use the license transfer tool here. This will re-register all of your content to the one console you select, eliminating this issue. You may only do this once a year.