Is there a point to getting DDP DOJ?

[professor ganson]

More specifically, is there a point to getting this game for someone like me who may never get past level 3 of ESPGaluda on 1cc? That is, does DDP DOJ hold any interest for those of us who are average (or for this forum below average) in shmupping skills?
I've already preordered Mushi and already have Dodonpachi, so I'm seriously wondering whether DDP DOJ has anything different to offer.

[8 1/2]

DOJ is a masterpiece unto itself. I consider myself a pretty average gamer (maybe very slightly above average) and I can hack DOJ. I can 1CC Galuda though, so that may be a point to consider as DOJ is definitely an evil bastard until you start to figure out the patterns. This is one point though that's often not addressed when this game comes up. Most of the time I see people simply label it as hard, and it is, but in a different way than your average manic vert. See, DOJ's combo system is extremely precise. So much so that each stage's enemies and the bullets they fire are all part of a "master plan" of sorts that relates to chaining. In this, when you begin to learn some chains you stop worrying about where the bullets are as they just sort of fold around you as you go through the motions of your combo. Think of it as a jigsaw puzzle with a million pieces. I think saying that this game is more akin to something like R-Type is pretty fair. Perhaps "Thinking man's manic" would work too.

[Nei First]

I have wondered this myself. I'm roughly average at shmupping but I love high but fair challenges in shmups.

I think I will like DOJ and I'm hoping the challenge is fair enough, to keep me coming back to play it, rather than put me off it. I'm getting DOJ next week.

[janrodricks]

I watched a video of the first stage in DOJ the other day. Seriously crazy stuff...especially the boss patterns

[Nei First]

I watched a video of the first stage in DOJ the other day. Seriously crazy stuff...especially the boss patterns

Do you have a link?

[janrodricks]

I watched a video of the first stage in DOJ the other day. Seriously crazy stuff...especially the boss patterns

Do you have a link?

Heres the file:
http://www.eckychap.co.uk/

and heres the list of what there is:
http://www.eckychap.co.uk/

They have lots, but the one I watched was ps2ddd001.mpeg (15.3Mb)

[professor ganson]

I have wondered this myself. I'm roughly average at shmupping but I love high but fair challenges in shmups.

I think I will like DOJ and I'm hoping the challenge is fair enough, to keep me coming back to play it, rather than put me off it. I'm getting DOJ next week.

Yes, I love a high challenge as well. There are several shmups (especially those on the DC) that just seemed too hard at first, and so I just set them aside. But these same games have later become obsessions. I expect DOJ may work the same way for me.

[janrodricks]

I'm definetly gonna pick this game up eventually. I love Dodonpachi - of all the shmups I've played so far this is my favorite. I'm still very new to shmups though, so I'm not gonna rush into DOJ or anything

[Nei First]

Thanx for that link man really, thanx!

I've been looking everywhere for DOJ vids, this site is like gold. Downloading vids now.

I have wondered this myself. I'm roughly average at shmupping but I love high but fair challenges in shmups.

I think I will like DOJ and I'm hoping the challenge is fair enough, to keep me coming back to play it, rather than put me off it. I'm getting DOJ next week.

Yes, I love a high challenge as well. There are several shmups (especially those on the DC) that just seemed too hard at first, and so I just set them aside. But these same games have later become obsessions. I expect DOJ may work the same way for me.

I sure hope so, it may be awhile before I'll be able to get another game after this. Of all the shmups I want to get, this game has been in my head the most. Everybody kept saying it's difficult, and that's got me eager to play it.

I haven't been this eager to get a shmup since Border Down and Gradius V.

[professor ganson]

I haven't been this eager to get a shmup since Border Down and Gradius V.

Did Border Down meet your expectations? This is another one that's been on my mind a lot lately. I wish the price hadn't jumped so suddenly. It's hard to find at all, and when you do find it these days it's often $80+

[Nei First]

I haven't been this eager to get a shmup since Border Down and Gradius V.

Did Border Down meet your expectations? This is another one that's been on my mind a lot lately. I wish the price hadn't jumped so suddenly. It's hard to find at all, and when you do find it these days it's often $80+

It did... by far. I'm skeptical about alot of games I buy, I try to find as much info about them as possible before considering buying them. But with BD It didn't take much for me to get this game, I knew it would be good, but never thought for one second, that it would be THAT GOOD.

The fast action, fair challenge and sheer fun of playing this game reminded me of the Thunder Force series. The music is the best I've heard of any shmup, and the Border system/Remix mode adds a nice challenge and replay value to the game.

I remember after the first day of playing it, it became my best hori shmup of all time. Most of the best shmups I played during the Saturn/Psx era were vertical shmups. I had almost forgotten how good hori were, and Border Down made me remember.

I'd say Gradius V is the only hori shmup so far that can even rival Border Down.

$80+ is a bit much for it, but considering how much I love this game to me it's worth it, and this is coming from someone who HATES over spending on games.

[Dave_K.]

More specifically, is there a point to getting this game for someone like me who may never get past level 3 of ESPGaluda on 1cc? That is, does DDP DOJ hold any interest for those of us who are average (or for this forum below average) in shmupping skills?
I've already preordered Mushi and already have Dodonpachi, so I'm seriously wondering whether DDP DOJ has anything different to offer.

If you can still find DDPDOJ at a good price you should pick it up, as its getting harder and harder to find...even if you aren't up to playing it yet. I know I sure wasn't back when I first got it. Keep working at DDP, and once you start getting bored with that, then bring out DOJ and it will all make sense.

My problem is that I can't get very far in either game because I'm obsessed with getting maximum chains after watching the replays. Play for survival first, then go for chains/score after that and you will be set.

[GaijinPunch]

With Mushihime coming out in two months, I would just wait. Probably much more enjoyable. I find DOJ's stiff scoring scheme to be pretty boring, requiring super precise memorization. ESPGaluda on the other hand, is very free-flowing and you can even get some crazy ass points being creative. I 1CC'ed Galuda as well, and can onlyget to Stage 3 of DOJ on 1 credit... not that I play it that much.

[Davey]

To me, to me it's just hard for the sake of being hard.

Playing DOJ is kind of like lifting weights. "Fun" certainly isn't the word for it, but you endure it for the sake of self-improvement and a sense of accomplishment. You don't play it to enjoy yourself, but to prove to yourself that you can do it.

The original DDP, on the other hand, handed out as much satisfaction as it did punishment. But DOJ is more like a drill sargeant, spitting in your face and telling you you're crap. Personally, the only pleasure I could ever get from it would be to say "ha, I beat you, asshole."

On that note, my copy is awfully dusty, but I can't quite part with it.

[Cthulhu]

I'll pop in on this one too -

I loooove DDP:DOJ, but I don't try to compete in it at all. Score? Who cares! 1CC? Yeah right! I just play the game and try to complete it in as few continues as possible. It's still a blast, and you still get a sense of accomplishment as you can reduce that number pretty quickly.

Yes, if you want to get "good" at it, it can be really painful. Too much memorization, too many bullets. That's why I don't bother with it.

[Nemo]

To me, to me it's just hard for the sake of being hard.

Playing DOJ is kind of like lifting weights. "Fun" certainly isn't the word for it, but you endure it for the sake of self-improvement and a sense of accomplishment. You don't play it to enjoy yourself, but to prove to yourself that you can do it.

The original DDP, on the other hand, handed out as much satisfaction as it did punishment. But DOJ is more like a drill sargeant, spitting in your face and telling you you're crap. Personally, the only pleasure I could ever get from it would be to say "ha, I beat you, asshole."

I couldn't disagree more. DDP is great, but DOJ is the next level. The enjoyment comes from the exhiliration of metriculating through tsunami after tsunami of bullets. Relentless, non-stop action, that's what shooters should be about. DDP doesn't get interesting till stage 5. DOJ gets good in stage 3 and Stage 5 is one of the greatest shmup levels ever.

[Davey]

DDP was my first shmup ever, so that might be why I feel that way about it. I went from not being able to clear the first level to clearing the first loop. I do agree that it starts out too slow, though, and I wish more of the game were like level 5. I also haven't played the game in about a year, so I should probably revisit it before using it as a shining example.

I didn't get very far into DOJ (around 40 million IIRC) before I realized I simply didn't enjoy myself while playing it anymore. Even though it has projectiles galore, it's too cold and calculated to give me a rush.

[dave4shmups]

More specifically, is there a point to getting this game for someone like me who may never get past level 3 of ESPGaluda on 1cc? That is, does DDP DOJ hold any interest for those of us who are average (or for this forum below average) in shmupping skills?
I've already preordered Mushi and already have Dodonpachi, so I'm seriously wondering whether DDP DOJ has anything different to offer.

Personally I don't think there is a point to getting DDP DOJ. The chaining is frustratingly difficult, and no where NEAR as fun as in DDP. And the Hyper Shot feels like a cheap gimmick thrown in just to make the game look better.

Stick with Mushi and Dodonpachi and don't waste your money on DOJ.

[8 1/2]

To quote the box of Sky Shark for NES. "No one ever said it would be easy." DOJ kicked my ass forever. Still does. But I didn't quit and now I'm pushing 100 million and it's all guts. My chaining past the first half of stage 3 is non-existent so I have to push as far into the game as I can to put up even marginal numbers. It's really a lot more creative than it looks at first. There are many many ways to go about getting the same chain, and even when you've memorized a whole stage and think you've got it down there's always more to learn and something more than you can improve on. Sometimes adding even a couple hundred extra hits to your chain can mean a jump of tens of millions. In that, the progression is up to you, and there's room to recover later on if you blow something early.

Shmup fans shouldn't cower before a difficult game. Grab this game if you can... it's an outright classic. Then go find a copy of MD Undeadline and we'll talk.

[Rob]

And the Hyper Shot feels like a cheap gimmick thrown in just to make the game look better.

Uh, no. Respectfully.

[dave4shmups]

DOJ is a masterpiece unto itself. I consider myself a pretty average gamer (maybe very slightly above average) and I can hack DOJ. I can 1CC Galuda though, so that may be a point to consider as DOJ is definitely an evil bastard until you start to figure out the patterns. This is one point though that's often not addressed when this game comes up. Most of the time I see people simply label it as hard, and it is, but in a different way than your average manic vert. See, DOJ's combo system is extremely precise. So much so that each stage's enemies and the bullets they fire are all part of a "master plan" of sorts that relates to chaining. In this, when you begin to learn some chains you stop worrying about where the bullets are as they just sort of fold around you as you go through the motions of your combo. Think of it as a jigsaw puzzle with a million pieces. I think saying that this game is more akin to something like R-Type is pretty fair. Perhaps "Thinking man's manic" would work too.

It's not the fact that it's so hard that turned me off, as much as the fact that, IMO, it's just nowhere near as addictive and fun as Dondonpachi.

IMO, DDP DOJ is nothing like R-Type which is an old-school shmup-it's a different style of gameplay entirely. Sure, you blow lots of stuff up in both titles, but that's pretty much where the similarities end, IMO. In R-Type there are patterns, but it's all about blowing up as much stuff as you can, not about chaining, and I certainly wouldn't describe R-Type as a complicated jigsaw puzzle.

[dave4shmups]

To quote the box of Sky Shark for NES. "No one ever said it would be easy." DOJ kicked my ass forever. Still does. But I didn't quit and now I'm pushing 100 million and it's all guts. My chaining past the first half of stage 3 is non-existent so I have to push as far into the game as I can to put up even marginal numbers. It's really a lot more creative than it looks at first. There are many many ways to go about getting the same chain, and even when you've memorized a whole stage and think you've got it down there's always more to learn and something more than you can improve on. Sometimes adding even a couple hundred extra hits to your chain can mean a jump of tens of millions. In that, the progression is up to you, and there's room to recover later on if you blow something early.

Shmup fans shouldn't cower before a difficult game. Grab this game if you can... it's an outright classic. Then go find a copy of MD Undeadline and we'll talk.

Not everyone who dislikes DOJ does so because of it's difficulty level. Some of us, like myself, are just old school to the core, and don't give a crap about chaining, unless it's accomplished by shooting a row of enemies, ala Galaga and Darius II.

[8 1/2]

Fair enough, but my point was more that memorization is key to playing both games. There are some games, like most Psikyo games for instance, where you can step up and make it pretty far on your first go just by relying on basic skill. That's not to say that memorization isn't big in those games as well, but you don't have to meticulously map your way through each stage. I use the R-Type reference in this regard, and maybe Pulstar would be a better one. These games aren't going to reward blind luck very often. You may make it a stage or two on your first go, but to really get deep into the game you have to start putting together the building blocks of the level and plan your attacks carefully. DOJ is all about planning. Reckless play will get you somewhere, but to master it you have to be almost a shmup scientist with a mind for meticulous detail. And of course it's not for everyone, but IMHO it's a classic that everyone should at least check out.

[BulletMagnet]

I figure it might be worth mentioning that, while the game is indeed tough as nails, it also makes at least some attempt at being accessible: for one thing it has a "simulation mode" (ESPGaluda has one too) in which you can practice any stage (even the second loop) at pretty much any number of settings...there's also a "no bullet mode" to practice chains, once you start getting into that, not to mention replays, if you want to watch those.

If you can find the game at a good price, by all means snatch it up; if you end up not liking it much you're sure to find someone else who'll take it. If you're not super-serious about shmupping, though, paying "full price" for DOJ might leave you feeling a bit bummed, since not only will it take your confidence and self-respect, but a sizable chunk of your most recent paycheck.

[Rob]

There are some games, like most Psikyo games for instance, where you can step up and make it pretty far on your first go just by relying on basic skill. That's not to say that memorization isn't big in those games as well, but you don't have to meticulously map your way through each stage

Huh? Not that I think it's a great thing, but Psikyo's are much harder to get by without memorizing safe spots and plans of attack (like taking out major threats in GB2 and DB with powerful close range attacks). There's very little you have to memorize in DOJ to survive. Super small hitbox + slow bullets, and they expect you to dodge stuff more than prevent stuff from happening like a Psikyo game.

[dave4shmups]

Fair enough, but my point was more that memorization is key to playing both games. There are some games, like most Psikyo games for instance, where you can step up and make it pretty far on your first go just by relying on basic skill. That's not to say that memorization isn't big in those games as well, but you don't have to meticulously map your way through each stage. I use the R-Type reference in this regard, and maybe Pulstar would be a better one. These games aren't going to reward blind luck very often. You may make it a stage or two on your first go, but to really get deep into the game you have to start putting together the building blocks of the level and plan your attacks carefully. DOJ is all about planning. Reckless play will get you somewhere, but to master it you have to be almost a shmup scientist with a mind for meticulous detail. And of course it's not for everyone, but IMHO it's a classic that everyone should at least check out.

I totally agree; I just think that some people prefer to hack and memorize old-school shmups, rather then bullet manic shmups. And BTW, I like your UN Squadron avatar! Did you ever beat the SNES version? Talk about memorization with that ceiling boss!

[dave4shmups]

And the Hyper Shot feels like a cheap gimmick thrown in just to make the game look better.

Uh, no. Respectfully.

OK, that was a dumb comment, I'll admit Rob. But what in the heck is the Hyper Shot for, then?? I didn't find it any easier, for example to chain with it.

[Rob]

I didn't play for score seriously, but in the superplay they were using them to accelerate chain count. It certainly doesn't make it much easier to chain, aside from being wider, since the drawback is temporary bullet speed/rank increase.

[BulletMagnet]

Indeed; shooting stuff with Hyper activated racks up your combo counter faster, I believe that using more than one Hyper at a time will multiply the effect even more, though as Rob said you also have to put up with even faster bullets. It also does wipe all bullets from the screen when you first use it, but it's only a momentary reprieve.

[gs68]

Hyper, to me, is not really an item made to make the game easier, but an item for experts who know what they're doing. While it gives give you more power and sends your combo meter through the roof, the rank goes up greatly and you can be worse off than before if you use it at the wrong time.

It's like a high-performance racing car; in the hands of a professional, it is terrifying (in a good way, of course). But give it to an idiot and it is not going to prove useful.