All-time Top 25 increased to 30, 40, 50 or more?

[j^aws]

Thought I'd start this poll while we all wait for this years results...

I've seen interest for increasing the number of titles before; so here's your chance to voice your opinions! Especially from current voters or potential future voters, although anyone can participate...

[jpj]

even at 50 i'm not sure stargate would get in

i think 25 is about right. 10 is great, but you will always miss out a couple of gems. 30, 40, 50, you're gonna have too many token votes, and it starts to lose it's meaning.

[Twiddle]

j^aws has something broken in his brain that makes him think all good ideas are bad ideas and all bad ideas are good ideas

[FIL]

Surely a top 50 can be extracted by looking at the results as a whole.

To make people vote for more than 25 would raise the barrier to entry even higher. This is of course assuming those who vote in the existing top 25 meet the existing experience requirements.

[Elixir]

I think it's fine the way it is. Expanding it to 50 and you'll get a bunch of missable stuff on there.

[CIT]

Isn't the whole chart listed every year anyway?

So no point in expanding the 25.

[Twiddle]

But think of all the stunningly mediocre titles that need weasel votes!

[j^aws]

Isn't the whole chart listed every year anyway?

So no point in expanding the 25.

I don't think it's the same; you could just do a top 10 and list the entire chart instead, but the voters only voted for 10. Likewise, the results would be different if you did a Top 40 and listed the entire chart...

[professor ganson]

Isn't the whole chart listed every year anyway?

So no point in expanding the 25.

Right, I think the only point would be to allow each individual more votes. In my own case, though, my list would get watered down in a hurry. I'm nearly happy with everything on my top 25, but if I had to produce a larger list, I'd have to list things I'm less happy with.

[jpj]

let's be honest, good games are just not that common

[kengou]

25 is fine. when I was constructing my list for this year, I came up with my 'nominees', the shmups that I enjoy enough that they could go on the top 25, and I ended up with around 27 or 28 games. I doubt I've even PLAYED 50 shmups in total; probably close to 40, MAYBE. If we HAD to list 50 shmups, I wouldn't even bother participating. And on the other hand, 10 is too limiting, although it is the "best of the best" it also forces me to leave off a lot of games that I still consider extremely good.

[nZero]

[50] Stargate
[1] 49 other games that my vote will have nearly no influence upon

let's be honest, good games are just not that common

And no one can agree on what those good games are anyway, only that there are too few of them

[Ed Oscuro]

Not even MAJOR STRYKER would make me think this is a good idea, sorry.

It would be fun to have a top 50 of games that people think are good WITHOUT letting individual voters weight scores (not even with the ranking), so that people who think Game X needs to get in can see how miserably it fails next to Gunbird 2, Twin Cobra, and even Cat Suey.

[louisg]

It might be interesting to categorize the results since there are so many schools of shmup design and expand the number of results that way.

[j^aws]

[50] Stargate
[1] 49 other games that my vote will have nearly no influence upon

(...)

Pathological case:

50:49 -> ~ 1.02

Current pathological case:

25:24 -> ~ 1.04

i.e. BOTH weightings (ratios) are approximately the same! ;P

[Ed Oscuro]

That ratio also demonstrates why doubling the 25 will have a minimal impact on the top ranking.

I would bet that it would be - gasp - the same, just with the next 25 dragging out and liberally sprinkled with kusoge as shmups collectively prolapses gaming's colon to extend their lists

Also, you're forgetting that the actual difference in the pathological case between the [50] pick and any individual [1] is far greater than between a [25] and a [1]. The fact that the 50 is proportionally lower than the 49 doesn't matter when the rest of your list becomes zako, because each individual vote is far less balanced compared to the [50].

But perhaps all those points are moot if letting you create a Top 50 poll would mean that you'll post in more than Top [XX] and Sanwa vs. Seimitsu threads this year Far be it from my place to question your skill or familiarity with shooters, but for somebody so critical of the Shmups Top 25 process you can't really claim you have the pulse of the Forum. Jus' sayin'...

[j^aws]

That ratio also demonstrates why doubling the 25 will have a minimal impact on the top ranking.
(...)

Doubling the 25 -> reduces number of voters participating; therefore gives each voters vote more weighting compared to the whole pool of voters. This can impact the top rankings significantly...

EDIT:

Also, you're forgetting that the actual difference in the pathological case between the [50] pick and any individual [1] is far greater than between a [25] and a [1]. The fact that the 50 is proportionally lower than the 49 doesn't matter when the rest of your list becomes zako, because each individual vote is far less balanced compared to the [50].

1:50 -> 0.02 and 1:25 -> 0.04

i.e. still approximately the same...

EDIT 2:

(...)
you can't really claim you have the pulse of the Forum

I'm not claiming "I have the pulse of the Forum"...

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah gee, 0.04 is only double 0.02. Start stacking up votes from the MSDF (Major Stryker Defence Force) and you'll see the difference much more quickly (doubly as quick) as with a Top 25.

I would say the effect scales in a linear fashion, but I'm not giving enough of a damn to actually carry out a practice run of scores, so there we are.

(...)
you can't really claim you have the pulse of the Forum

I'm not claiming "I have the pulse of the Forum"...

they why are you inviting us to pollute your Top 50

[j^aws]

Yeah gee, 0.04 is only double 0.02.

2% or 4% is negligible, compared to 102% or 104% respectively for weightings. See nZeros original post and my reply.

Start stacking up votes from the MSDF (Major Stryker Defence Force) and you'll see the difference much more quickly (doubly as quick) as with a Top 25.

If voters meet the voting criteria and *honestly* vote, then Major Stryker (or any other game for that matter) is present on the list without breaking any "rules"...

I would say the effect scales in a linear fashion, but I'm not giving enough of a damn to actually carry out a practice run of scores, so there we are.

You don't need to; someone amongst the organisers should know the system enough to implement appropriate constraints and test out "practice runs". The system isn't perfect... The final results reflect voters honesty and the system...

they why are you inviting us to pollute your Top 50

This thread is just a simple poll.

Also, it's not my "Top x" poll. If you qualify, you'll vote. If you don't qualify, you don't vote. No ones asking you to "pollute" anything, unless you have malicious intent... If you're feeling that you are being forced to vote x number of games, then the rules circa 2007 didn't enforce this...

[Animaitor]

I guess 25 is fine but I went with 30 just to make it a rounded number and allow a few more gems to be added to the list. More than 30 is just too much I think.

[Dandy J]

theres already problems with mediocre games getting into the top 25 lets not try to take on more than that

[markedkiller78]

let's be honest, good games are just not that common

Great games are not common. There are plenty of "good" shmups imo.

25 Is plenty.

[neist]

let's be honest, good games are just not that common

theres already problems with mediocre games getting into the top 25 lets not try to take on more than that

These are wise people.

I'm not sure if I can personally think of 50 games that would deserve a vote. #50 would be incredibly mediocre. I really don't want to have to sit and think of what mediocre game I'd rank over another mediocre game.

[doctorx0079]

let's be honest, good games are just not that common

theres already problems with mediocre games getting into the top 25 lets not try to take on more than that

These are wise people.

I'm not sure if I can personally think of 50 games that would deserve a vote. #50 would be incredibly mediocre. I really don't want to have to sit and think of what mediocre game I'd rank over another mediocre gam.

THIS

[PROMETHEUS]

let's be honest, good games are just not that common

theres already problems with mediocre games getting into the top 25 lets not try to take on more than that

These are wise people.

I'm not sure if I can personally think of 50 games that would deserve a vote. #50 would be incredibly mediocre. I really don't want to have to sit and think of what mediocre game I'd rank over another mediocre game.

+1
to be honest even my top 25 includes games I don't really like that much

[nZero]

[50] Stargate
[1] 49 other games that my vote will have nearly no influence upon

(...)

Pathological case:

50:49 -> ~ 1.02

Current pathological case:

25:24 -> ~ 1.04

i.e. BOTH weightings (ratios) are approximately the same! ;P

My point wasn't the weighting (point assignment limits take care of that, as you've demonstrated) but rather the fact that now 49 crappy games would have to be added to fill out the list instead of just 24. It boggles the mind that someone would want to expand the Top 25.

[louisg]

But perhaps all those points are moot if letting you create a Top 50 poll would mean that you'll post in more than Top [XX] and Sanwa vs. Seimitsu threads this year Far be it from my place to question your skill or familiarity with shooters, but for somebody so critical of the Shmups Top 25 process you can't really claim you have the pulse of the Forum. Jus' sayin'...

What about a Top 10 Run 'n Gun poll (strictly Contra-like and Commando-like styles)? =) I'll volunteer to count votes and arrange the rules/genre definitions if anyone is interested... there's already a growing list of games in the genre over at 2dgaming forums, and I have a bunch more to add to that.

[Animaitor]

theres already problems with mediocre games getting into the top 25 lets not try to take on more than that

Mediocre games for you might be something worth playing for others. According to the rule number 1: Vote for the 25 shmups you feel are the "top" of all time. (What constitutes top is up to you: best, favorite, most influential, most significant, mix-and-match, etcetera.)

[spadgy]

25 is enough. The more you increase it, the more the poll looses significance, impact and integrity.

[doctorx0079]

10 would be ideal to benefit us non-voters, but 25 is for all the voters who just can't stand 10. 25 is almost too many already.