Arena shooters: Digital (8-way) vs. Analog control

[szycag]

Finally got Geometry Wars 2 now that you can buy single games directly from Amazon and don't have to mess with designated point increments that way. I've just been thinking how much more I enjoy the simplicity of eight way movement and firing, like I'm used to in Robotron 2084. It seems like there's too big a margin of error in full analog style arena games like GW/GW2.

Pacifism certainly drives my theory home; the difference between going through a gate and crashing into the side of one (instant death) can be a couple of degrees, and there are a lot of points the game recognizes on the stick. It takes a lot of rewiring of the brain after playing so many tap-dodging shooter games.

With only 8 ways to move and shoot on digital sticks, on the other hand, my brain feels less taxed and I can concentrate on the enemy more, also there's a little more of a sense that my mistake was my fault and I can correct it next time. Mistakes in Geometry Wars seem to pull the floor right out from under you, and I can't help but get frustrated and curse in those circumstances, where I can keep a level head in japanese bullet hell stuff because I saw it coming.

I'm liking Geometry Wars 2 a lot, but only in short doses. Otherwise I'll start tossing controllers. So don't get me wrong, the game is great. But I think digital movement and firing is my preference for these types of games, even if you have to move out of a comfort zone a bit more to line up your shot. Wondering if this bugs other people as much.

Bonus shot: Give me some other Arena shooters to try, of either type. I've tried the demos of the Mutant Storm games, they were alright...

[worstplayer]

I'll take this opportunity to once again link to my game which lets you use both d-pad and analog stick to move (although shooting is always analog). With xpadder you can also set up same controls for PC version of Geometry Wars.

I tried that myself, and IMO there's not much difference between digital and analog movement, but I HATE 8-way shooting. It means you have way to shoot most (~75%) of the playfield.

Oh, and also try Everyday Shooter, which is 8-way by default (and there's some "inertia" on shooting direction, I don't know how to explain it).

[Twiddle]

digital movement, analog firing, or at least the ability to sweep in between the 8 directions

because it's annoying trying to kill an enemy shooting at you from 22 degrees while you can fire shots only in directions that are multiples of 45 degrees

[null1024]

or at least the ability to sweep in between the 8 directions

Digital shooting + moving, but ^this is nessacary.

[Zweihander]

Depends on the game, really.

[lgb]

No preference. Seems more like a gameplay mechanic than an aesthetic thing, so I don't worry about it.

[antron]

a bit off topic:

are there any arena shooters for 360 or PS3 that let you use the d-pads of two different controllers?

I have a 2 player cab.

[Zweihander]

are there any arena shooters for 360 or PS3 that let you use the d-pads of two different controllers?

No, because the development costs for even such a miniscule detail like that wouldn't pay off via sales of people who actually care about such a thing.

[8 1/2]

are there any arena shooters for 360 or PS3 that let you use the d-pads of two different controllers?

No, because the development costs for even such a miniscule detail like that wouldn't pay off via sales of people who actually care about such a thing.

The development cost? The cost would be entirely negligible. A good gameplay programmer could probably have that working in a few minutes. Actually, adding in menu support to allow you to select different modes would likely be more costly in programmer and HUD designer time than implementing the control state.

For Zombie Apocalpyse I pushed to include digital control, so you could use the face buttons and d-pad if you wish, but the idea was rejected on the grounds that such controls are outdated and wouldn't provide the fidelity that analog would. We did actually end up including the option to swap sticks if you want to play southpaw. I would have loved to get in dual-digital control via two controllers, but these are the sorts of things that get you the stink-eye from production who can't figure out why a person would want to do such a thing. More than cost, I think there's a lingering fear of looking outdated in the face of the competition. The question would likely be, "Does Geometry Wars do it?" If the answer is no then it'd be a tough sale to most of the team. I'm a big fan of having as many options as you can cram into a game, especially an arcade game.

[t0yrobo]

I really prefer full analog in Geometry Wars, but I like 8-way much better in Everyday Shooter. So I guess it just depends on the game for me.

[szycag]

I'm not advocating tacking on digital movement and firing options to games where it would cripple your progress or scores which is what would happen in Geometry Wars 2 I'm sure. Interesting bit; you can map the d-pad on the SF4 pad to either of the analog sticks... I tried playing Pacifism this way and sure enough it wasn't so hot. Then again that d-pad, while better than the regular 360's pad for sure, isn't too great for tapping.

They let you use the d-pad and face buttons for the DS Geometry Wars, but it puts you at a huge disadvantage just because of how some of the enemies react to your fire, hovering away from it or bending around to hide their weak point. You're going to want all points fire to take care of them just because that's the way the game is designed.

I didn't phrase the question the right way maybe; of course games are gonna work better with the controls they're designed for, but some people might be distressed with how more modern games are pushing full analog control which is easier to make mistakes with. I think I like Twiddle's response about sweeping fire the best.

And that sucks that developers are holding up Geometry Wars as the de facto arena shmup standard, I think it has a lot of flaws. The blurry filters are like making a car sex porn but shooting it all from behind the foggy windows. They're turning a lot of people away from playing the game who have eye trouble/pain. And if you're going to spawn stuff right on top of me, couldn't you give it a little bit more time than HALF A SECOND before it can do collision damage to me? There's a lot of basic game design stuff GW just throws out the window, seemingly to make the game harder artifically, or just balance out the gameplay in a way that's intentionally frustrating to the player. That team should play a few more Cave games to see the difference between rewarding and frustrating difficulty.

[8 1/2]

I don't mean to say that GW is the standard of the industry, but it is one of the most profitable downloadables. Without that game this whole thing might not have caught on. Hell, it practically carried the 360 for that first 6 months or so. So in the eyes of a producer you can see why they often like to go back to it for reference. Now, gameplay is a whole other story. I've never been a huge fan of the basic GW gameplay. I really loved King and Pacifism in GW2, but only because they put interesting twists on what is otherwise fairly limited.

Now, if only we could get some sort of paddle controller for consoles! I'd kill to make a modern update to Heavy Barrel.

[szycag]

I figured there would be a clear winner in the poll results, they're all nearly neck and neck. I'd love to see the poll results given more voters that actually play arena shmups.

[Rob]

I like arena shooters where I can shoot anywhere and lock in that direction.

[dcharlie]

no real preference, i love Robotron and GW1/2 - can flip between the two fairly easily.

As long as the action is frantic and the controls actually work, then i'm fine with either.

[Mortificator]

With games that have 8-way shooting, it doesn't feel like I'm aiming at the enemies, more like I'm brandishing a long stick and running it into enemies.

It's not necessarily bad, it just doesn't feel like aiming.

[cools]

Doesn't bother me either way. So long as the controls feel right for the game.

Robotron with Geometry Wars controls would be a tougher game, as there's less lag with where you're shooting on the defaults. Geometry Wars with Robotron controls would be massively difficult.

Whichever suits.

[Dave_K.]

Leave analog movement and firing to FPS games. Top down arena shooters which try to pass themselves off as arcade games and should at least support the option of digital movement, so we can play these games with arcade controls.

because it's annoying trying to kill an enemy shooting at you from 22 degrees while you can fire shots only in directions that are multiples of 45 degrees

Yeah, and I find the moving power-ups in seibu games annoying, but both are part of the game mechanic. You are supposed to move and fire, not just stand in one place and snipe everything that comes at you from all angles.

[antron]

Leave analog movement and firing to FPS games. Top down arena shooters which try to pass themselves off as arcade games and should at least support the option of digital movement, so we can play these games with arcade controls.

you need digital fire too, right?
everyday shooter does this with the d-pad and the 4 buttons. but I don't have an easy way to wire my second joystick to those buttons.

do any other top downs do this?

I could adapt my harness. but it's only good for games that don't use triggers. does GW?

[Dave_K.]

you need digital fire too, right?

Oops, yeah I should have said digital controls (meaning both movement and fire).

everyday shooter does this with the d-pad and the 4 buttons. but I don't have an easy way to wire my second joystick to those buttons.

If everyday shooter doesn't support remapping of controls (which I also thing should be standard on any game), then you could try keytojoy with JPAC.

[antron]

you need digital fire too, right?

Oops, yeah I should have said digital controls (meaning both movement and fire).

everyday shooter does this with the d-pad and the 4 buttons. but I don't have an easy way to wire my second joystick to those buttons.

If everyday shooter doesn't support remapping of controls (which I also thing should be standard on any game), then you could try keytojoy with JPAC.

does any game support remaping of player 1's controls to buttons on players 2's controller? i doubt it. this is what i need, to avoid adjusting my wiring.

[Dave_K.]

does any game support remaping of player 1's controls to buttons on players 2's controller? i doubt it. this is what i need, to avoid adjusting my wiring.

Most (good) doujin games support any keyboard or joystick/button press be mapped to a particular control. Failing that, keytojoy + JPAC should cover your needs for mapping arcade controls to any PC game.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Leave analog movement and firing to FPS games. Top down arena shooters which try to pass themselves off as arcade games and should at least support the option of digital movement, so we can play these games with arcade controls.

you need digital fire too, right?
everyday shooter does this with the d-pad and the 4 buttons. but I don't have an easy way to wire my second joystick to those buttons.

do any other top downs do this?

I could adapt my harness. but it's only good for games that don't use triggers. does GW?

I have one of those PSX/N64 Naki Pro D-pad controllers with support of all four face buttons can be mapped out to the second analog stick -- perfect for playing Robotron/Smash TV on the PSX. Would have to use an PSX/PS2 to PS3 USB adapter for it to work properly with Everyday Shooter on the PS3. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[ubersaurus]

I prefer the analog method. Ever since I was a kid I didn't like having "dead zones" in Robotron I couldn't fire in.

[Ed Oscuro]

digital movement, analog firing, or at least the ability to sweep in between the 8 directions

Out Zone does this, and even the arcade Contras, to say nothing of the SNK releases

And I think Sinistar has many more angles than 45 degrees.

if these ancient games could do it so can we

analog ftw

robotron sux

[AuthenticKaizen]

in my opinion it depends on the game...
some work better with 8 way, some dual stick analog...and some with wasd and mouse....

for worthwhile freeware arena shooters check out the recommendations on my little blog
http://www.gamespot.com/users/AuthenticKaizen/

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Sinistar is supposed to have a 49-directional joystick (I'm assuming it's 48 directions plus the center equals 49?) but the game does really need that much precision.

Now, for the small amount arena shooters that I've played (Robotron 2084, Smash TV) and for even semi-arena shooters (Alien Syndrome, Total Carnage) the 8-way fire was never really an issue and seemed more than adequate when combined with the 8-way movement. If anything, the main issue was that the actual firing rate was still too slow (for me, anyway) to effectively clear away all the enemies closing in, especially with multi-shot enemies.