POSTMODERNISM

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Ed Oscuro
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POSTMODERNISM

Post by Ed Oscuro »

So there is this class being taught by my favorite (I would think it safe to say!) rock star professor, and if tickets were sold they'd probably end up going for $200 on the black market. Suffice to say kids saw the flyer and thought "wow anime AUESOM!!!!"

We read a translation of kasha ("The Flaming Cart," translated as "All She Was Worth," pretty decent detective novel), which was fun and good, and had a lengthy discussion about Japan's economy in the bubble era. The current reading is...ah...

"Postmodernism, or,
The Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism
Fredric Jameson"

Thirty-eight pages, with large sections yellowed out (i.e. not essential for reading), but since I'm a completist I went to the optional section.

Wow...just...well, here's a section:
We will begin with one of the canonical works of high modernism in visual art, Van Gogh's well-known painting of the peasant shoes, an example which, as you can imagine, has not been innocently or randomly chosen. I want to propose two ways of reading this painting, both of which in some fashion reconstruct the reception of the work in a two-stage or double-level process.
I first want to suggest that if this copiously reproduced image is not to sink to the level of sheer decoration, it requires us to reconstruct some initial situation out of which the finished work emerges.
Jameson obliges us by theorizing that VanGogh was remarking on the struggle of peasants in a capitalist world, instead of being a notorious weeaboo who could channel his ADD into pretty pictures.

More fun happens when Jameson tries to explain hows come many of VanGogh's paintings are very colorful when at heart he was a Marxist; Jameson argues that this was an act of 'utopian compassion.'

Then there is some Heidegger, and then af;afopy1q0tyq90zLOOPY LUUP

There may be a time to mention that I think Andy Warhol could have been impaled on that telephone pole spike with little loss for humanity, although perhaps not for The Humanities.
in Magritte, the carnal reality of the human member itself, now more phantasmic than the leather it is printed on. Magritte, unique among the surrealists, survived the sea change from the modern to its sequel, becoming in the process something of a postmodern emblem: the uncanny, Lacanian foreclusion, without expression. The ideal schizophrenic, indeed, is easy enough to please provided only an eternal present is thrust before the eyes, which gaze with equal fascination on an old shoe or the tenaciously growing organic mystery of the human toenail. Ceserani thereby deserves a semiotic cube of his own:
CUT!

And that's one of what I would consider the highly intelligible (although "Lacan" remains as mysterious and as deficient of intrigue as before) passages in the work. I more or less was aware I'd be getting into this, but it's preposterous all the same.

Comments? Requests to see more of the horror (I'm sure it's widely available, but my copy is annotated with the PICTARS).

I'm sure it'll be a good class again once this is over and everybody runs around doing highly postmodern things, like toting around all the required reading under their good arm.
Fruit trees in this world are ancient and exhausted sticks coming out of poor soil; the people of the village are worn down to their skulls, caricatures of some ultimate grotesque typology of basic human feature types. How is it, then, that in Van Gogh such things as apple trees explode into a hallucinatory surface of color, while his village stereotypes are suddenly and garishly overlaid with hues of red and green? I will briefly suggest, in this first interpretative option, that the willed and violent transformation of a drab peasant object world into the most glorious materialization of pure color in oil paint is to be seen as a Utopian gesture, an act of compensation which ends up producing a whole new Utopian realm of the senses, or at least of that supreme sense -- sight, the visual, the eye -- which it now reconstitutes for us as a semiautonomous space in its own right, a part of some new division of labor in the body of capital, some new fragmentation of the emergent sensorium which replicates the specializations and divisions of capitalist life at the same time that it seeks in precisely such fragmentation a desperate Utopian compensation for them.
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Post by dtdg »

:shock:

My head hurts.
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Post by RedDeathRunning »

Lacan is a postmodern philosopher or literary critic (depending on who you ask). Seems like meaningless text to me, but I hate postmodernism, so who knows.
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Post by Skykid »

Everything these days is post-modernistic, that's why the human race is failing drastically to produce anything that can be deemed as truly new or unique.
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Post by jonny5 »

***slowly backs towards the door***
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

The funny thing is I took a class co-taught by this fellow on Modernism two semesters ago, and in some ways this seems like a companion class.

Like Modernism much better.

Also, since the quote messes up links - the word "Magritte" in "in Magritte" above (in the second to last quote block) is a hyperlink to an image provided with the text. Not my fault the board's default skin sux, but I just thought I'd point that out.

Modified a few of my comments here for my online class posting on the reading :lol:
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Post by trivial »

I know those were supposed to be examples of opaque writing, and the first one you gave sort of qualified; but you could have shown us ever so much worse. I actually liked that last one.

Lacan was not deficient in "intrigue" unless compared to, say, the conspiracy betwixt Louis Althusser and William S. Burroughs (to harm their respective wives in some wise). I think you meant "interest"?
Last edited by trivial on Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

trivial wrote:Lacan was not deficient in "intrigue" unless compared to, say, Althusser, who seems to have pushed his wife out a window. I think you meant "interest"?
I KNOW HOW TO USE WERDS AAGH

Sorry, hang on while I drain Jameson outta my brain...

Interest is certainly a better word choice, I admit :D The humorous thing about the passages is that the words aren't chosen randomly, but compactness is a poor argument for writing as he has here.
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Post by UnscathedFlyingObject »

How about posting something us peasants can understand?
"Sooo, what was it that you consider a 'good salary' for a man to make?"
"They should at least make 100K to have a good life"
...
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Post by maxlords »

I was thinking postmodernist philosophy, not postmodernist art. Either way...bleah. I minored in philosophy in university and some of that stuff...man. I once read an essay by a post-modernist philosopher....it was less than 20 pages and took me 4 hours. I read at 75-100 pages an hour normally :D
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Post by Skykid »

jonny5 wrote:***slowly backs towards the door***
Lol! :lol:
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Post by CIT »

Lacan is for lit. studies wankers, and Jameson is actually a critic of pomo and a pretty bland marxist. This is where you can find an attempt to formulate an actual postmodern theoretical approach:

Image
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Post by RGC »

.
Last edited by RGC on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sjewkestheloon »

My main experience with post modernity is through literature, from Auster to 2000AD (or the other way around if you will) and I find the tenets quite appealing. I empathise with the 'post-modern man' if you will.

As for post modern philosophy, I often feel like I am missing a point slipping between the vague and wordy/worthy-toned text until I spend some time decoding. I then usually discover that the point being made is so flimsy that it has to be hidden behind verbosity to appear in any way publishable.

A generalisation I know.

I find greater joy in reading philosophical socialist tracts a la Hegel and the (young) Hegelians than in lofty post modernist philosophy, and the former is largely unintelligible to me.
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Post by The n00b »

Isn't post modernity just the future?

There's the past, there's the present (modern times), and then there's the future. We don't say pre modern, modern, and post modern you silly literary wankers.

Seriously I'm going to start posting my networking stuff if you guys keep this up.
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Post by RGC »

.
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Post by trivial »

I wouldn't have gotten through D+G's Anti-Oedipus without being inspired by 1000 Plateaus first. It's awesome.

Thank all of you for not having mentioned Jean-Francois Lyotard yet, although I do like his essay collection called The Inhuman.
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Post by professor ganson »

Postmodernism completely sucks, imo. Not even worth the time to criticize it. Go read some anglo-american philosophy of mind instead.
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Post by trivial »

Rorty disagrees. Do you hate him too?

I'd love to know people's verbal GRE scores before I read their critiques of difficult writers.
Last edited by trivial on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dragoforce »

This is quite eerie. Tomorrow i'm going to participate in a debate on wheter we live in a modern och postmodern society. I can honestly say I don't understand a thing and i'm expecting disaster. I'm on the modern side and my main argument is the ongoing globalisation.
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Post by RedDeathRunning »

Rorty is bad as well...not because he was interested in "pomo," but because he butchered the history of philosophy with little or no care. Besides, before his death Rorty had not actively worked in philosophy of mind since the late 70s (if I remember correctly).
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Post by professor ganson »

trivial wrote:Rorty disagrees. Do you hate him too?

I'd love to know people's verbal GRE scores before I read their critiques of difficult writers.
Rorty is not my thing at all, but I don't hate him. Exemplary current philosophy is done by, among many others, Thomas Nagel, Fred Dretske, Timothy Williamson, David Lewis (recently deceased), Sydney Shoemaker, Michael Tye, Jaegwon Kim, Francis Kamm...
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Post by CIT »

professor ganson wrote:Postmodernism completely sucks, imo. Not even worth the time to criticize it. Go read some anglo-american philosophy of mind instead.
That's like saying Psikyo completely sucks, go play Cave instead.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

Dragoforce: I could find myself arguing that we are living in a post-postmodern society, but I only really get behind that when we're talking about Warhol-style excess being the extent of "postmodern," which it arguably isn't. I say post-postmodern with the idea that we are beyond simple critiques of the aspects of modern living, which is a question you will have to answer yourself (I could see it going either way). There are some interesting aspects to postmodernism, but the whole 'poor artist with good self promotional skills' scene is pretty dull. Whenever a discussion of postmodernism veers into that corner I can feel my pulse slowing.

I think that one of the clear possible differences between Modernism and Postmodernism is found by studying with whom the artistic vanguard allies itself, and how it grasps the freedom of ideas.

Although the Russian and Italian Futurists were just one of many Modernist movements, look at the governments they helped prop up: The early Soviet and Stalinist eras, and the Italian Fascist regime. Warhol's era of postmodernists were at the vanguard of a group that still is a going concern today, and not just in publicly funded arts projects: they helped sell images of corporate culture, but also heap implicit criticisms on what they are selling (or appropriating). This was true with Andy Warhol, certainly; today, the originator of the "superflat" movement, Murakami Takashi, sells Louis Vitton bags with his designs just as surely as does Hello Kitty, but as the name "superflat" suggests it is not without an acknowledgement of a limit to the range of commercial art.

["Modernism," at least in the West, refers also to the artistic and literary movements of the 1880s - 1920s especially (and onto about 1960, if you believe it was followed by postmodernism then), so you can talk about the Russian and Italian Futurists, or the Anglo-American Imagists, or something else. Futurism is about speed and the representation of dynamism, very fun; Imagism is also great fun (Ezra Pound for example).]
CIT wrote:This is where you can find an attempt to formulate an actual postmodern theoretical approach:

Image
Looks like a broke link. (I see the hyperlink, but that ruins the joke). Will look that up though.

@ Maxlords: Yeah, that sounds about on par for reading Jameson...it's really slow going.

Back to the overarching story of "Ed takes on Postmodernism, Reds in the classroom:"

On the plus side, we had a good conversation about this in class today.

I decided to talk about the first highlighted passage, not in an attempt to game the system, and it turns out that was a better idea than reading the rest because most of Jameson's ideas that the professor wanted to touch on today were found in there, or he ran through them in lecture anyway.

Interestingly, the professor (and I) agreed that Jameson's argument that the 'hermeneutical' (interpretative) process is powerless when confronted by postmodernism, in contrast to Modernism, to be bunk.

In other words: I am told Jameson argued that you can interpret Van Gogh's peasant shoes, but not Andy Warhol's. This is pretty silly, as you can tell something about Warhol through his choice of subject matter, just as with Van Gogh. I noted that Jameson also seemed to be giving the impression that Van Gogh was some kind of Marxist, although I note in a passage before where he says that you have to "reconstruct" the situation that led to the painting's being made, which could be an admission he's pulling it out of his ass.

I asked the professor if, given this point of disagreement we both had with Jameson, if there were any alternate text on postmodernism (that wasn't so sloppy), and the answer was...well, there isn't one really. One of the problems with these hyper-dense tracts is that once a core of believers gets momentum behind them, they gain mass, and over the years everybody else ends up having to pay them heed as well - reading them and referring to them in their papers. It's not a complete failure, but it could definitely be improved upon.

He did offer up the title of a large volume for further reading, whose title I wrote down - but I've managed to lose the note. Will have to look later.
trivial wrote:I'd love to know people's verbal GRE scores before I read their critiques of difficult writers.
It'd be fair to factor in tiredness + drunkenness when posting, but this is still a fair point.

I think it's a scattershot approach - Jameson manages to find some bons mots in his writing, and the use of a specific word should trump the worse ones. But when it gets to a point that he's losing his intended audience, and most people aren't able to untangle his own assumptions (which seemed rarely referenced, another failing) and spot his goals and biases - that is a problem. Jameson's weakly Marxist bias jumped off the page at me, for what it's worth, but in my first reading there were some subtle possibilities that I wasn't tying in yet - but then I'm honestly not completely sure if Jameson intended some of the connections I made.

I say you have a good point, though, because the student still should soldier on through such writing. But that doesn't eliminate the need for ideas to be communicated clearly for the sake of a better discussion and dissemination of ideas.
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Post by professor ganson »

CIT wrote:
professor ganson wrote:Postmodernism completely sucks, imo. Not even worth the time to criticize it. Go read some anglo-american philosophy of mind instead.
That's like saying Psikyo completely sucks, go play Cave instead.
No, it's not at all like saying that.
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Post by trivial »

Is it like dumbing it down, is it time to discuss Pinker, with whom peeps may actually be familiar?
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

trivial wrote:Is it like dumbing it down, is it time to discuss Pinker, with whom peeps may actually be familiar?
Your call! I'm not for dumbing anything down, just for comprehensible writing (not that anybody can tell from looking at the structure or content of my posts, I'm sure, but then again I never wanted to be canonical literature for philosophy majors).
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Post by trivial »

I was having a snipe at Ganson and his pet philosophy of mind, not yourself, Ed. The canonical philosophy lit didn't get into an "extreme clarity" fetish until the mid-nineteenth century.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

On second thought, I don't want to be literature. I AM NOT A NUMBER

Also, I have seen the Communications From Elsewhere site before; didn't spend a ton of time with it though. Lots of compelling analysis but it's hard to find time for it all.
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Post by maxlords »

@ sjewkestheloon: I'd have to agree that that's how I felt...I spent a whole semester on post-modern philosophers....Rorty was one of the notables in that book and probably my most hated. I honestly can't remember the others...it's been a decade :D

I found older philosophy far more enlightening when I was studying it. Thomas Hobbes, Hegel, Nietzche (very odd guy), Russell, etc. Even some of the Greek stuff.

@ prof. ganson: Had no idea there was GOOD current philosophy. Nice to know.....wish I had the time to actually study it :( Anything on the less complex side? Or is it all mostly highly specialized?

I always found that philosophy never really answered anything. What happened is that we sort of discovered all these fancy scientific disciplines that our current world functions on through philosophical analysis. And then those new sciences answered the questions. It essentially kick started fields of science discipline by discipline. Unfortunately, then philosophy was left with one question. "What other questions can we ask?" And if our current society, that's just getting harder and harder. For a discipline of thought that's devoted to trying to answer the unanswerable....we're quickly running out of concepts that can't be compatmentalized, filed, codeified, or otherwise sorted into a cubbyhole of some obscure branch of science.

What does that leave for philosophy? Not much I suspect. That's why people like Rorty come to the forefront IMO. Are they asking really interesting or useful questions? I'm not so sure. It's one of the reasons I didn't continue to read philosophy. I just wish they taught philosophy in HS and college more actively....specifically to force people into patterns of critical thinking in their everyday lives. Maybe if people thought more....nah...let's not get THAT hopeful :D
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