How do you like your difficulty distributed?

[320x240]

Some easy levels and then it ramps up quickly, an evenly distributed rise throughout the game, flatly distributed in a given loop/difficulty setting, or something else?

I guess it could depend on the game. Personally I don't like it when difficulty suddenly ramps up between levels or (even less) before a boss fight. An even rise suits me best. In memorizer-heavy games I would prefer that the difficulty only rose between loops/difficulty settings. I would name Cho Ren Sha as an example of a game with an even rise (in a given loop) and the Genesis version of Undead Line as one with a more flatly distributed difficulty, though I wouldn't be surprised if many people disagree. It's been some time since I last played any of those games.

[PROMETHEUS]

for me the ideal game would have a couple of equaly hard stages and a permissive scoring system, but I guess it won't be created because that's not the best model to make the most money in arcades :p

[jpj]

i really like dai-ou-jou's system.

if you're playing just for the soul purpose of clearing the first loop, it's not actually that tough with a bit of practice, and a ship that has a decent amount of bomb stocks. but the better you get (both in terms of not losing lives, not bombing, and getting long chains and using your hypers) the tougher it gets as well. i think galuda and deathsmiles would fit that category as well

stuff i don't like: cheapness, and games that need to be beaten on 1 life

[gameoverDude]

I prefer the difficulty to rise evenly throughout. If there's a rank system, there needs to be some incentive to keep the rank raised (i.e. Border Down, Ibara Arrange & Black Label, and ESPGaluda, where high rank = more bullets to cancel).

On a normal/arcade difficulty setting, the first stage should be easy to clear but hard to max score on your first few tries. The 2nd stage should kick up the difficulty a bit.

Thunder Force V could have been better if the difficulty rose more evenly with each stage. It doesn't really kick up that much until you're at the final boss, which is actually harder than the one from TF VI. TF IV has a near-perfect difficulty curve and it seems to have a moderate degree of rank.

Things I hate:
*The way you're screwed over on Darius II and Gradius III if you lose your 1st ship. (You're back to a mint condition factory fresh ship which isn't good if you're a few stages in. God forbid you lose your ship in Darius II 7th Zone). This is fixed in Darius Gaiden and G-Darius, and you can help it in Gradius V by leaving "revival start" in its default setting of "OFF". Grab your options back and you're in somewhat good shape.

*A certain checkpoint in R-Type's 7th stage. I'm sure you know the one.
*Weakass weapons.

[Drascin]

Start with medium difficulty, and go up, maybe with a couple breathing points in the middle. If it starts too easy, it's boring to replay the first stage when you're trying to improve, but if it starts too hard and/or you don't get time to familiarize yourself with the game's gimmicks, it becaomes frustrating and I end up thinking the game annoying.

*The way you're screwed over on Darius II and Gradius III if you lose your 1st ship. (You're back to a mint condition factory fresh ship which isn't good if you're a few stages in. God forbid you lose your ship in Darius II 7th Zone). This is fixed in Darius Gaiden and G-Darius, and you can help it in Gradius V by leaving "revival start" in its default setting of "OFF". Grab your options back and you're in somewhat good shape.

Oh, yes. That's annoying. If you slip up... depending on where you die in Gradius III, you might as well restart the thing, because you're going to be too occupied trying to keep existing for a while to actually think about scoring and style. I hated that too.

[captpain]

for me the ideal game would have a couple of equaly hard stages and a permissive scoring system, but I guess it won't be created because that's not the best model to make the most money in arcades :p

Yeah, you had a good rational argument for this. I agree. For repeated play, it really makes the most sense.

No boring parts, no game breaking errors on easy parts, etc.

[Jockel]

yeah i'd also vote for a more even difficulty level.
because in some shooters i can no miss - no bomb the first stage, perhaps no miss the second stage and then it's just dying from there on.
(I'm looking at you, DOJ)
or if you played shiki 3- it starts out extremely easy, and then gets balls hard at the end (and you've got to hate the boxes in 3-1 and 3-2)

[Udderdude]

It's pretty typical for arcade games to have an easier first two stages and only really get going until stage 3. It's a pretty common pattern.

[DJ Incompetent]

I want a completely inverse difficulty. I'd want the very hardest stuff to come first. Stage 5 up-front, stage 1 last.

I'd rather be the one psyching myself out standing as the difficulty near the end instead of both hard-as-balls paired with my own mind games.

If I'm gonna fail a credit, I wanna know about it right away.

Scoring should be a risk-reward system based on weapon selection. The more gimped the weapon, the higher I should be scoring.

[Shatterhand]

For an arcade game, I guess that's how is supposed to go. Easy 1st level, but that requires practice to get a perfect score. Easy 2nd level, a littler harder to get a good score, and a challenging boss. Hell goes lose on 3rd level.

I think that shmups made for the home market don't need to be like that, they can be hard as nails since level 1, since they don't have to give that "Welcome, I'll treat you nice now, but fuck you later so you feel confortable enough to put one more coin" feeling that arcade games need.

But, what actually happens is that games made for the home market (except doujin ones) are usually the easiest ones. Compile games, Harmful Park, Blast Wind, they are all blidnly easy from beginning to end.

[MX7]

for me the ideal game would have a couple of equaly hard stages and a permissive scoring system, but I guess it won't be created because that's not the best model to make the most money in arcades :p

This would perhaps be my perfect setup as well. Maybe a slight increase in difficulty as it goes along, just to make things a bit more dramatic. I find sudden difficulty spikes most lazy.

Then again, I've been playing a lot of Batsugun Special recently, which is perhaps the epitome of an arcade shooter, that starts off very easy, before ending up extremely hard (eventually).

[PROMETHEUS]

And that's why my favorite game of all is Mushihimesama Futari.

[gabe]

It depends on the game.

If I am playing a game with fairly standard controls, rules, scoring, etc... I would prefer to get right into the thick of things, with difficulty slowing ramping up each level.

However, if the game has any unique mechanics, I like this "general rule" to familiarize myself with the game:

It's pretty typical for arcade games to have an easier first two stages and only really get going until stage 3. It's a pretty common pattern.

[Elixir]

I like to be crushed before I reach the third stage. CAVE games seem to fail at this half of the time; unless you end up changing the difficulty, so I'm a big fan of Platine Dispositif. Pretty much all of their stuff is hard from the very beginning, and it takes a huge amount of practice to advance as if you're piecing together a puzzle. Not the "I broke my chain I need to reset the game" type of puzzle, but one in survival.

Touhou is up there as well. Contrary to belief, EoSD Lunatic is probably around the same speed as Mushi Ultra.

[Udderdude]

I like to be crushed before I reach the third stage.

You are really in the minority, then .. crushing the player before they even have a chance to figure out what is going on is generally considered bad game design.

[PROMETHEUS]

I like to be crushed before I reach the third stage.

You are really in the minority, then .. crushing the player before they even have a chance to figure out what is going on is generally considered bad game design.

Not for a competitive game I think. Although in that case implementing easier modes for beginners and harder modes for experienced players is more or less required.

[Momijitsuki]

Touhou is up there as well. Contrary to belief, EoSD Lunatic is probably around the same speed as Mushi Ultra.

Seriously. Subterranean Animism on Lunatic is by far the most challenging thing I've ever seen! *can't even get past the midboss on stage 1*

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

[captpain]

Touhou is up there as well. Contrary to belief, EoSD Lunatic is probably around the same speed as Mushi Ultra.

Seriously. Subterranean Animism on Lunatic is by far the most challenging thing I've ever seen! *can't even get past the midboss on stage 1*

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

Rank never really works that dramatically unless you somehow intentionally drive it up or do some dumb stuff like collect every single powerup in a Raizing game.

[Elixir]

I like to be crushed before I reach the third stage.

You are really in the minority, then .. crushing the player before they even have a chance to figure out what is going on is generally considered bad game design.

Take Gundemonium Recollection for example. There's easier modes for people who are unfamiliar with the game; then there's Normal, which is actually Hard, and Hard is borderline impossible, and the hardest mode is just absurd. All Platine games are like this, their "default" (Normal) level being difficult and expecting you to know your way around (comparable to Daioujou). So, no, it isn't bad game design, but difficult from the beginning. Like I said, it's like a puzzle, and you're learning every step of the way. I highly recommend checking out Hitogata Happa or Gundemonium, which are vert and hori respectively. There's also Royal Edoma, an isometric shmup (no, you can't jump), and a bunch of other stuff like Engage to Jabberwock and Maid Samba. I had to shit cucumbers to get physical copies of all the Platine Dispositif games I don't really care if you pirate them.

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

Touhou has rank. EoSD used to be considered the hardest but now that there's a hitbox patch out (people won't admit to using this shit) I guess it'll drop considerably. I don't really care though, everything I wanted from touhou I achieved already. I know the series fairly well, but I'm pretty sure it peaked at IN. As for the fanbase, well.

[Udderdude]

Touhou is up there as well. Contrary to belief, EoSD Lunatic is probably around the same speed as Mushi Ultra.

Seriously. Subterranean Animism on Lunatic is by far the most challenging thing I've ever seen! *can't even get past the midboss on stage 1*

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

Rank never really works that dramatically unless you somehow intentionally drive it up or do some dumb stuff like collect every single powerup in a Raizing game.

The problem I have here is Raizing games never actually tell you not to grab powerups or medals. Just rapes you in the ass if you do. Beating the player over the head with invisible, arbitrary rules is pretty bad design. Following these rules once you figure them out isn't very enjoyable, either .. imagine if the game actually did tell you not to grab powerups or medals. I'd just laugh.

[Udderdude]

I like to be crushed before I reach the third stage.

You are really in the minority, then .. crushing the player before they even have a chance to figure out what is going on is generally considered bad game design.

Take Gundemonium Recollection for example. There's easier modes for people who are unfamiliar with the game; then there's Normal, which is actually Hard, and Hard is borderline impossible, and the hardest mode is just absurd. All Platine games are like this, their "default" (Normal) level being difficult and expecting you to know your way around (comparable to Daioujou). So, no, it isn't bad game design, but difficult from the beginning. Like I said, it's like a puzzle, and you're learning every step of the way. I highly recommend checking out Hitogata Happa or Gundemonium, which are vert and hori respectively. There's also Royal Edoma, an isometric shmup (no, you can't jump), and a bunch of other stuff like Engage to Jabberwock and Maid Samba. I had to shit cucumbers to get physical copies of all the Platine Dispositif games I don't really care if you pirate them.

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

Touhou has rank. EoSD used to be considered the hardest but now that there's a hitbox patch out (people won't admit to using this shit) I guess it'll drop considerably. I don't really care though, everything I wanted from touhou I achieved already. I know the series fairly well, but I'm pretty sure it peaked at IN. As for the fanbase, well.

Wouldn't a replay recorded with a patched hitbox version desync on a non-hacked one? Pretty easy way to tell ..

[moozooh]

Why would it desync? I don't know how exactly it's supposed to work, but it can be done as easily as swapping the focused mode sprite with the same one with a hitbox rectangle drawn on it.

[Udderdude]

Why would it desync? I don't know how exactly it's supposed to work, but it can be done as easily as swapping the focused mode sprite with the same one with a hitbox rectangle drawn on it.

Oops, I thought this was something that actually changed the size of the hitbox.

[Taylor]

As far as gameplay pacing goes I think an exponential difficulty curve and deep scoring system is the best way for an arcade game. A newbie can play the first level and feel like they’re getting their moneys worth whereas a veteran can milk the score system so they won’t be bored in the opening sections. For the score system I guess “memorising the stage” is a skill, though I prefer using an actual gameplay mechanic instead of something artificial. Ex: Bullet cancelling, powered up mode. If this is tied directly to rank, or even creates a feedback loop with rank, it's even better.

Arcade games can still benefit from modes, we’ve had a big debate about this before but splitting the game into multiple types instead of loops seems like a much better way of handling things. The second loop is naturally harder because of its duration, but that’s kind of a double-edged sword. Whereas modes also have other advantages like radically alterating sections of the game – you could do this on the 2nd loop but you’re doing more harm than good if after 25 minutes the player is effectively faced with a different game.

I think in a home environment difficulty settings are the easiest way to hit all the demographics, including the ones you can’t please in the arcades (casuals can’t last 25 minutes on one credit). This environment is also ideal for a developer to make a really hard difficulty because people aren’t pumping money into each time. I guess touhou kind of does this with its lunatic modes but they seem so memorisation strict I could never get on with them. In fact, I'm suprised I've seen so few decent doujins with a mental difficulty setting.

i really like dai-ou-jou's system.

if you're playing just for the soul purpose of clearing the first loop, it's not actually that tough with a bit of practice, and a ship that has a decent amount of bomb stocks. but the better you get (both in terms of not losing lives, not bombing, and getting long chains and using your hypers) the tougher it gets as well.

Unless Black Label is completely different, the DOJ system seems to be alienating most of the player base by the 2nd boss. With the difficulty curve, hyper rank increases, easy chain breaks, music and general atmosphere making it one of the most intimidating games I’ve played.

[captpain]

Seriously. Subterranean Animism on Lunatic is by far the most challenging thing I've ever seen! *can't even get past the midboss on stage 1*

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

Rank never really works that dramatically unless you somehow intentionally drive it up or do some dumb stuff like collect every single powerup in a Raizing game.

The problem I have here is Raizing games never actually tell you not to grab powerups or medals. Just rapes you in the ass if you do. Beating the player over the head with invisible, arbitrary rules is pretty bad design. Following these rules once you figure them out isn't very enjoyable, either .. imagine if the game actually did tell you not to grab powerups or medals. I'd just laugh.

It's actually a pretty interesting gameplay dynamic that works to keep newbies pumping quarters in and adds depth for more advanced players. Plus it's never really confusing and if it's a problem keeping track of it once you know what's going on then maybe arcade games are just a little too much to tax your brain with

[Momijitsuki]

The thing I dislike about many shmups are the rank systems. I personally like my difficulty to be just slightly over my skill level. I don't like how when I do well in one stage, the next stage totally rapes me. That's one thing I certainly do like about the Touhou series-- the stages don't get harder based on how well you do.

Touhou has rank. EoSD used to be considered the hardest but now that there's a hitbox patch out (people won't admit to using this shit) I guess it'll drop considerably. I don't really care though, everything I wanted from touhou I achieved already. I know the series fairly well, but I'm pretty sure it peaked at IN. As for the fanbase, well.

EoSD with hitboxes is pathetic. Half of the fun of that game was figuring out the invisible hitbox, much like the PC-98 games.

I never noticed any ranking though, and I play these games all the time-- the layout and patterns and bullet speeds all seem to be the same.

I think the series peaked at Perfect Cherry Blossom, and IN was there with all the extra fun stuff. After that, it just seems that ZUN's composing more ways of 'how do I make this so ridiculously hard that no one will want to play it?'.

[Udderdude]

Rank never really works that dramatically unless you somehow intentionally drive it up or do some dumb stuff like collect every single powerup in a Raizing game.

The problem I have here is Raizing games never actually tell you not to grab powerups or medals. Just rapes you in the ass if you do. Beating the player over the head with invisible, arbitrary rules is pretty bad design. Following these rules once you figure them out isn't very enjoyable, either .. imagine if the game actually did tell you not to grab powerups or medals. I'd just laugh.

It's actually a pretty interesting gameplay dynamic that works to keep newbies pumping quarters in and adds depth for more advanced players. Plus it's never really confusing and if it's a problem keeping track of it once you know what's going on then maybe arcade games are just a little too much to tax your brain with

"Newbies" are going to credit feed through games reguardless of their play mechanics.

Also nice job with the ad hominem jab there. Real mature. Obviously I must be terrible at it since I don't like it. Your logic is just flawless. Clearly I'm too dumb to avoid power-ups and medals once I know that doing so raises the rank to impossible-to-survive levels. Or maybe I don't like it FOR THE REASONS I STATED - It's a broken, hidden mechanic that doesn't make the game any more enjoyable once you figure it out. Maybe you like dodging medals instead of grabbing them .. I think having to do so is just ridiculous. I guess maxing your score while avoiding the rank climb to ludicrous levels is interesting if you like playing "Guess the number", since the game doesn't actually show you your rank.

[jonny5]

The problem I have here is Raizing games never actually tell you not to grab powerups or medals. Just rapes you in the ass if you do. Beating the player over the head with invisible, arbitrary rules is pretty bad design. Following these rules once you figure them out isn't very enjoyable, either .. imagine if the game actually did tell you not to grab powerups or medals. I'd just laugh.

It's actually a pretty interesting gameplay dynamic that works to keep newbies pumping quarters in and adds depth for more advanced players. Plus it's never really confusing and if it's a problem keeping track of it once you know what's going on then maybe arcade games are just a little too much to tax your brain with

"Newbies" are going to credit feed through games reguardless of their play mechanics.

Also nice job with the ad hominem jab there. Real mature. Obviously I must be terrible at it since I don't like it. Your logic is just flawless. Clearly I'm too dumb to avoid power-ups and medals once I know that doing so raises the rank to impossible-to-survive levels. Or maybe I don't like it FOR THE REASONS I STATED - It's a broken, hidden mechanic that doesn't make the game any more enjoyable once you figure it out. Maybe you like dodging medals instead of grabbing them .. I think having to do so is just ridiculous. I guess maxing your score while avoiding the rank climb to ludicrous levels is interesting if you like playing "Guess the number", since the game doesn't actually show you your rank.

and you know this, man!

*points at udderdude's avy.....

[captpain]

Also nice job with the ad hominem jab there. Real mature. Obviously I must be terrible at it since I don't like it. Your logic is just flawless. Clearly I'm too dumb to avoid power-ups and medals once I know that doing so raises the rank to impossible-to-survive levels. Or maybe I don't like it FOR THE REASONS I STATED - It's a broken, hidden mechanic that doesn't make the game any more enjoyable once you figure it out. Maybe you like dodging medals instead of grabbing them .. I think having to do so is just ridiculous. I guess maxing your score while avoiding the rank climb to ludicrous levels is interesting if you like playing "Guess the number", since the game doesn't actually show you your rank.

Ah, way to pee your pants and take offense over something that was by no means meant to insult your intelligence. Try not to spray too much spittle on your monitor there, champ.

I'll try not to joke with you in the future, you don't seem very fun.

[Icarus]

Also nice job with the ad hominem jab there. Real mature. Obviously I must be terrible at it since I don't like it. Your logic is just flawless. Clearly I'm too dumb to avoid power-ups and medals once I know that doing so raises the rank to impossible-to-survive levels. Or maybe I don't like it FOR THE REASONS I STATED - It's a broken, hidden mechanic that doesn't make the game any more enjoyable once you figure it out. Maybe you like dodging medals instead of grabbing them .. I think having to do so is just ridiculous. I guess maxing your score while avoiding the rank climb to ludicrous levels is interesting if you like playing "Guess the number", since the game doesn't actually show you your rank.

First, rank existed well before Raizing took a hold of it, and even back then it was just as invisible, and controlled by external and often unusual factors.
Second, the information on the system was distributed by Raizing themselves during the arcade game's release, and again on the Saturn disc. This information was further disseminated via the internet to players around the world on various websites including ours. Sure, the game itself doesn't tell you how to control the system via an in-game tutorial, but where would the fun in strategy development be if the game itself told you how to control the system? I like a little mystery in my games, it's more rewarding when you make the discoveries.
Third, rank management isn't exactly difficult in any Raizing, not by a long shot. Perhaps you just don't like complexity or challenge in your games.
Finally, a game's design isn't broken if a great majority of players here and around the world have figured out and have gotten to grips with the system, and with less complaining to boot. Perhaps 'thinking out of the box' doesn't suit your playstyle, but it doesn't make the game broken if that is the case. Taste is subjective.