Shmups have become stale - former shmup lover - for devs

[w00ts]

I used to play a lot of shmups (only the good ones), and one thing I have noticed even with newer shmups, considering the waning of the genre...
is that none of the newer shmups have tried to really break new ground in shmup land. I have not really seen any good mix and cross polination of ideas from other genres and have them cohere well and get everything right, like it feels like it belongs there.

I played ikaruga and I thought it was pretty much ho-hum and bordering on average. So I thought to myself, we've had decades and we're still flying, dodging and shooting, and the best they could up with was absorbing bullets? the decision tree and interactivity with entities in shmups is painfully lacking.

If I play a game like Graidus V with the aiming laser vs playing Ikaruga, I'll take gradius V every time. Ikaruga for me had major problems with what I call "constrained options", that is, the game doesn't have much to do beyond move, shoot, absorb... the environment was sterile and lacking in interactivity, you couldn't say grab enemies, chuck them around, etc... now I know this was Ikaruga (arcade port) but my point is Ikaruga is the symbol of why the shmup genre died out.

This is a serious problem for a lot of shmups across the genre, it's like they can't think of more things for a plane or ship to do besides fly and shoot -- I've had SO many ideas for what other things it could be capable of doing it could do I could fill up my garage! The point is - interactivity and the user having many decisions and options at his disposal for how he chooses to interact with the world and the entities in it, as well as how they are designed to react and interact in reverse towards the player as well.

The interaction between enemies is severely lacking, why does the plane need to just shoot enemies? Why can't you fly into enemies? why can't your plane grow arms (mecha) and toss enemies into other enemies, and have them bounce off one another? Imagine doing chains by chucking enemies into enemies by predicting the bouncing path! My mind overflows with creative ideas whenever I play ikaruga for an extended period of time and my annoyance factor at the constraints of ikaruga reaches its pinnacle

I wish I had the skills to go about implementing them, it seems a lot of game dev's are lacking in imagination... Also I watched the guys at blizzard hammer home during one of their presentations at one of the gaming development conferences, that I saw posted online... they said "what you think is fun... is not always the case!" (paraphrased) and hence the need for feedback.

Many devs (i.e. team behind ikaruga) seem focus on highly constrained and unimaginative gameplay, sometimes to the extent of other aspects of the game - story - feeling, etc. Ikaruga was so bland if you stripped it of its graphics and bullet absorbtion... there would be no game there at all... nothing worth selling anyway, it would be like an early alpha of some other shmup game. With Ikaruga... It I just wanted to pull my hair out. I know it was a port of an arcade game but man, it just shows me how unimaginative a lot of people capable of developing games really are.

I've noticed one truism for all games and game devs over my many years of gaming - some devs get what fun is and how to make games, while other devs don't. So hence my truism: "Just because you have the skills to develop a game, does not mean you know how to develop a fun gaming experience!"

Now... even with older retro shmups like UN Squadron/Area 88 (one of my personal fav's still to this day). Is that many shmup developers don't seem to evolve beyond fly, powerups and shoot - the objects and enemies and the options you have for interacting with them is so constrained as to be mindbogglingly numb.

There is so much potential in the 2D shmup genre but many shmup developers have a terrible lack of imagination. I think anime like Macross Frontier should be required movie viewing and other animes like it if they want to know all the cool shit we gamers wish our shmuppy machines could do!

I go back from time to time and play retro shmups and analyze and determine what is fun about them, and one thing I've noticed is the lack of interactivity, like shmup interactivity just stopped at move/dodge/powerup/shoot + cool visuals...

I only wish I had the time and the skills to get my ideas out there, but you devs with the skills can get the creative ideas implemented! What I hope this message does - is to cause you to think differently of WHAT ELSE could this machine/fantasy creature/etc be doing? What else could my enemies be possible of doing? What kinds of options do they have for interacting with each other beyond shoot, move, get hit and blow up?

The lack of choices and options for interactivity has been really hurting the shmup genre for me, and it's one of the reasons that even Gradius V for the PS2 sits on my shelf unless I have a buddy to play with or I am in a particular mood. My favorite weapoin in Gradius V was the steerable laser, because it put me "back in the game" and kept my attention focused, rather then merely move , align myself, and press a 'fire and forget' weapon. Fire and forget weaponry (without any imagination) is one of the things I think that has been killing the genre itself, because many devs can't seem to get beyond rehashing it endlessly.

The way weapons work, feel and are designed are based on a model that is over decades old by now. Try weapons that are not merely "fire and forget", try air-melee, plane-mecha transforms (ala macross), etc, etc... the sky is the limit, go find movies and mine the interweb for ideas... because I want to see the shmup genre come back desperately... I feel they have given fun and imagination the "cold shoulder"

[lewisit]

why can't your plane grow arms (mecha) and toss enemies into other enemies?

Trigger Heart Exelica?

[MR_Soren]

This is probably a poor way to introduce yourself on this forum.
This is not about development. I expect it will be moved.
I disagree with your post.

Flying, dodging, and shooting is what you do in a shmup. It's how the genre is defined. Likewise, you run, dodge, and shoot in an FPS. You manipulate falling objects in a falling block puzzle. You beat up the other player in a fighter.

How would you break new ground in a shmup? It sounds to me like you want to create a new genre. I think shmups break new ground about as often as can be expected in a genre that's been around so long. The mini-games on Space Invaders Extreme, beam battles on DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu, bullet buzzing in Psyvariar, and time slowing on ESPGaluda are all interesting additions to the basic flying, dodging, and shooting mechanic.

Ikaruga's minimalist design was breaking new ground. Instead of powering up or gathering new weapons, you start with all the tools you need and have to figure how to best utilize them to complete the game. The puzzle-like aspects made Ikaruga play differently than other shooters, and it gets quite complicated if you are trying to chain.

Speaking of chaining, that is the one feature of Ikaruga that is completely ignored in most mainstream reviews, yet the scoring system is one of the most defining elements of a modern shmup. Playing Ikaruga without chaining is like playing Tetris without knowing that clearing multiple rows simultaneously is worth more points.

However, you sound like you don't play games for score. Perhaps you should give that a chance? Just do it on a game with some technique to it's scoring system.

[Udderdude]

A lot of ideas look good on paper, but play like ass. Or the developer doesn't have the talent/skill to implement it in a fun way.

Plus, if it ain't broke .. don't fix it.

[Necronopticous]

I'm curious, what are the "good ones?"

[Udderdude]

I'm curious, what are the "good ones?"

Ones that have a good risk/reward ratio, work well with the tired and true mechanics (moving and shooting), and don't feel like gimmicks that were added at the last second. Oh, and they're actually fun to pull off.

[w00ts]

This is probably a poor way to introduce yourself on this forum.
This is not about development. I expect it will be moved.
I disagree with your post.

What do you mean it's "Not about development"? The whole point of the post was a post to developers, that many of todays shmups seem trapped in the 80's and early 90's...

The genre died for a reason - it never evolved and understood that absorbing a persons attention is the issue in shmups, and dodging + firing are highly limiting gameplay choices when it comes to shmups, because of the lack of interactivity given the genres past and assumptions about what machines are supposed to do.

Flying, dodging, and shooting is what you do in a shmup. It's how the genre is defined. Likewise, you run, dodge, and shoot in an FPS. You manipulate falling objects in a falling block puzzle. You beat up the other player in a fighter.

Unfortunately my post is completely lost on you, it is not about the the basic acts, it is about the kind of interesting decisions and opportunities there are to interact with the environment and whether not the player is engaged and having fun. There are many FPS's and fighters that suck, and yet they all have the similar activities, it is how those activities are implemented that make all the difference.

How would you break new ground in a shmup? It sounds to me like you want to create a new genre. I think shmups break new ground about as often as can be expected in a genre that's been around so long.

There are plenty of ways, right now shmups have extremely limited interactivity of just the float and fire variety, I'm not saying moving and firing is bad, I'm saying there has to be more decisions besides just those, the kinds of decisions and options you have for interacting with enemies and environment, and even the object/ship/plane itself in different ways are very limited. It appears to me that the developers of shmups have extremely limited imaginations and that is exactly why the genre died out - it lost appeal to anyone beyond the super hardcore, and I consider myself pretty hardcore.

The mini-games on Space Invaders Extreme, beam battles on DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu, bullet buzzing in Psyvariar, and time slowing on ESPGaluda are all interesting additions to the basic flying, dodging, and shooting mechanic.

No doubt but they are more paradies and subtle twists on the basic mechanic rather then opening up the world completely to new ways to interact with the world and it's entitites in a shmup.

Ikaruga's minimalist design was breaking new ground.

Ikaruga was the genre's last tired breath of uninspired rehashes, shmup fans flocked to ikaruga, and even I did, I was so psyched when they anounced ikaruga for the Gamecube back then, but I was sorely disappointed... I couldn't believe how lacking in good design the game was and it was more a puzzle game then a full fledged video game. I enjoy ikaruga, but the game itself symbolizes why shmups died out - the developers of shmups lost touch with anything outside the religion of previous shmups.

Instead of powering up or gathering new weapons, you start with all the tools you need and have to figure how to best utilize them to complete the game. The puzzle-like aspects made Ikaruga play differently than other shooters, and it gets quite complicated if you are trying to chain.

No doubt but it's still a puzzle solving game involving memorization, ikaruga I refer to it as a "puzzle game" rather then a shmup the mechanics of ikaruga are more akin to a puzzle game then a hardcore video game, chaining is interesting, but doing combos (as they call them in fighters), has been done before and most importantly ikaruga didn't give any imagination to their chaining system.

After I finished Ikaruga, I loaded up UNsquadron and Axelay and played them on their hardest diffs. Both those games > Ikaruga easily, and thats why I lost faith in the devs of console shmups... they lost touch with fun and their imagination and catered to a strange breed of shmup lover that was hardcore and that was obsessed with scores and mentally unstable kind of challenge, to the neglect of everything else. It's small wonder the shmup genre practically died.

Speaking of chaining, that is the one feature of Ikaruga that is completely ignored in most mainstream reviews, yet the scoring system is one of the most defining elements of a modern shmup. Playing Ikaruga without chaining is like playing Tetris without knowing that clearing multiple rows simultaneously is worth more points.

You know why they ignored chaining right? Because it was boring and poorly implemented -- Do you have any idea how much shit is moving on the screen in ikaruga? The background is not static so focusing on everything that is moving in ikaruga is a challenging task to most non-hardcore gamers... chaining was boring, because it had no real rewards in terms of animation or the game itself beyond score and that muffled robot voice that talked... that's another think that annoyd me - the muffled robot voice was so muffled you couldn't understand it most of hte time. I can accept garbled voices as long as subtitles are included... but they didn't include any.

So chains were too complicated and way too unrewarding for the average gamer to care, they don't want to have to memorize and play the same level over and over, doing the same or similar patterns over and over again - that was Ikaruga's achilles heal. To the average gamer it was " lets play memory and do the same thing upteen hundred times in the same level with the same enemies, with the same timing!". That's exactly why reviews gloss over certain things in ikaruga.

Sure you could play or chain differently but there were a few "optimum" ways to play a level and once you knew those there wasn't anything else, the chaining system had no real tangible rewards that were fun and engaging. Score is the superhardcore niche - the ultra competitive minority of shmup lovers, and I hate the fact that they are some of the most vocal in shmup land.

However, you sound like you don't play games for score. Perhaps you should give that a chance? Just do it on a game with some technique to it's scoring system.

I've done that but I can't play a game for score unless it is fun, something many shmups are not because of the monotony of how the gameplay is structured with no rewards or cool animated deaths, etc. There has to be some hook or replayability just for score is a no go if the game itself is not enjoyable to experience.

The problem with shmups is that the experience of the game itself is not that enjoyable, the art, the music, the fine tuning of the bad guy animations, etc... all of that matters and because of shmups lack of popularity and lack of funds, that means the furthering of the genre has been held back simply due to lack of financial rewards.

But if I wanted to play a game for score I'd play a game that was halfway decent and fun while I was racking up that score -- i.e. Gradius V

Gradius V did a lot of good, it's probably one of the best shmups in a long time, and it is killer fun 2 player.

I still value Area88/Unsquadron on gamer and Axelay more then I do many modern shmups, they were FUN to experience while you were playing and they had mood and emotion most other shmups lack.

[w00ts]

I'm curious, what are the "good ones?"

Ones that have a good risk/reward ratio, work well with the tired and true mechanics (moving and shooting), and don't feel like gimmicks that were added at the last second. Oh, and they're actually fun to pull off.

Exactly.

[w00ts]

I'm curious, what are the "good ones?"

It would take me a while to explain, but it would be amalgamating what was they got right about the oldbies and opening up new options for interaction, also the way animations and destruction plays out -- many of my ideas in that area center around animation and the art style - i.e. visual rewards, animations, etc, that go beyond just blowing up and add things like humor...

I'm sure you've played games where the way something happened was hilariously entertaining, the chain of events that take place just left you laughing so hard by the way the animators had done something and the way the physics of it all interacted.

I remember playing doom 2 and laughing when we lanned and watchin the doom 2 guy grab at his neck after being run down... that kind of fun and visual rewards is totally lacking in shmup land.

Much of the art is cold, unimaginative and sterile... (in terms of visual rewards, what happens onscreen, sound of dying enemies, etc) at least when it comes to machine shmups.

As for sound as a major point of immersion, Have you played... Company of heroes? did you notice how the way the levels were built and the background voices and the dialogue for combat units really added to the game, etc? Things like that but applying them intelligently to where they would really add to the experience of the game.

[Zebra Airforce]

Your terrible ideas are ruining videogames.

[w00ts]

Your terrible ideas are ruining videogames.

Right... you're just another hater, probably one of the hyper nerdcore that chained shmups to a premature death. Making it just being about score and challenge and playing the same game with the same old gameplay for 10 years straight, all the while while sucking the fun and imagination of the game out of the shmup itself.

I'm not saying shmups are bad, I'm saying there's not much new in shmupland when there is a lot that could be done that no one has yet thought.

"The task is not so much to see what no one yet has seen, but to think what no body yet has thought about that which everyone sees. ... But life is short, and truth works far and lives long: let us speak the truth. (Arthur Schopenhauer, 1818)"

Games have to be fun, and I really really doubt you have any clue about that.

[Zebra Airforce]

chained shmups to a premature death to just being about score and challenge and playing the same games for 10 years straight

Score? Challenge? A game good enough to play for ten years straight? Sounds like nirvana. Axelay, on the other hand...

[Zebra Airforce]

innovation = intertia + lifebars

[Necronopticous]

w00ts,

You really seem to think that you're onto something here, but you aren't. Your biggest mistake is that you seem to think that games, and their respective genres, are only as good as they are widely popular; add that to fact that you ramble on about how visual rewards and cool animations are more important than the core gameplay mechanics and scoring systems of games in a genre intended to be played for score, and you've got nothing.

So you don't have fun with these games; do you truly believe that means the genre needs to be fixed? Do you honestly think that mashing a bunch of shit from separate genres together is the answer? Come on, dude.

--

For fun:

Sure you could play or chain differently but there were a few "optimum" ways to play a level and once you knew those there wasn't anything else

[w00ts]

w00ts,

You really seem to think that you're onto something here, but you aren't. Your biggest mistake is that you seem to think that games, and their respective genres, are only as good as they are widely popular; add that to fact that you ramble on about how visual rewards and cool animations are more important than the core gameplay mechanics and scoring systems of games in a genre intended to be played for score, and you've got nothing.

So you don't have fun with these games; do you truly believe that means the genre needs to be fixed? Do you honestly think that mashing a bunch of shit from separate genres together is the answer? Come on, dude.

--

For fun:

Sure you could play or chain differently but there were a few "optimum" ways to play a level and once you knew those there wasn't anything else

The death of the shmup genre speaks for itself... despite peoples criticism on this forum.

We could take another game from another genre, such as god of war, it's technically a platformer/beat em up and yet the way its implementation took it beyond other games like it. I think the people here are just lacking imagination and are not grasping what I am saying. After all you can't technically know if they are good or not until you play it, many hit games started out as dumb ideas. You never know until you try.

[Udderdude]

Showing up and telling everyone they are killing the shmup genre by not innovating it is pretty lame. Most people on this forum just play shmups. If you want to impress anyone here, post your amazing, innovative, revolutionary ideas. I'm sure I'd be glad to see them ..

[w00ts]

Showing up and telling everyone they are killing the shmup genre by not innovating it is pretty lame. Most people on this forum just play shmups. If you want to impress anyone here, post your amazing, innovative, revolutionary ideas. I'm sure I'd be glad to see them ..

Well my post was specifically to devs who are making games or have plans on making games for xbox live. I may have gone about it the wrong way but my heart is in the right place... I haven't seen any games like Area 88 / UN squadron in a long time. That take the whole gaming experience to the next level, music, atmosphere, etc. That game hit all the bases correctly. Few shmups ever do.

Also the death of the shmup genre happened for a reason, let's not forget that. Genre's die for a reason.

[Zebra Airforce]

That take the whole gaming experience to the next level, music, atmosphere, etc. That game hit all the bases correctly.

Yeah, now that's a fun game. Nothing like napping your way through 40 levels of intense whack-a-mole gameplay. My favorite part is where you continue to decimate the same few enemies again and again with your enourmous laser without ever being in danger of death!

Also the death of the shmup genre happened for a reason, let's not forget that.

Because people like you think the best videogames are interactive books, and that the traits of a good shooter are good music, graphics and atmosphere (not that many good shooters don't have these in spades).

[Udderdude]

Showing up and telling everyone they are killing the shmup genre by not innovating it is pretty lame. Most people on this forum just play shmups. If you want to impress anyone here, post your amazing, innovative, revolutionary ideas. I'm sure I'd be glad to see them ..

Well my post was specifically to devs who are making games or have plans on making games for xbox live. I may have gone about it the wrong way but my heart is in the right place... I haven't seen any games like Area 88 / UN squadron in a long time. That take the whole gaming experience to the next level, music, atmosphere, etc. That game hit all the bases correctly. Few shmups ever do.

Also the death of the shmup genre happened for a reason, let's not forget that. Genre's die for a reason.

I don't think you'd find many arguments here that the vast majority of Xbox Live "shmups" are mediocre at best.

Area 88 was not a very good shmup .. sorry to break it to you.

If your real idea for reviving shmups and making them popular again involves merging them with newer, easier game concepts, I think I'd pass on that one. Muddy them up enough and they're no longer shmups to begin with

It honestly seems like you haven't explored modern shmups to begin with. Most of them have at least one thing that makes it different from the old-school 'Shoot and Move' shmups.

[Herr Schatten]

I'm moving this to shmups chat where it belongs, so it can evolve into a full-fledged flame war.

[crithit5000]

Go to Shoryuken and tell them that every fighter made in the last fifteen years is completely irrelevant and that Yie Ar Kung-Fu is the best game ever bye.

[sven666]

Also the death of the shmup genre happened for a reason, let's not forget that. Genre's die for a reason.

when the hell did the shmup genre die? it was certainly alive and kicking last night?

the kind of games you are describing that are full of gimmicks and snazzy visuals are absoluteley littering Xboxlive and PSN, they are popular with the average joe for those very reasons, they are unpopular here because they lack substance and challenge.

the kind of games that are popular here are very challenging and focus more on the depth of scoring and gameplay, look into games like mushihimesama futari, espgaluda and dodonpachi for reference, these games are unpopular in the mainstream because the require dedication and for the uninitiated are very hard to just pick up and play.
an IGN rewiever that is able to get 1000/1000 on most xbox360 games will still get oblitterated by the "stadium robot" because it is a way of playing he is not used to (and because of that he proboably wont enjoy it).

the reason shmups arent churning out by the dozen like in the early 90s is because the industry has evolved into capitalism, pretty much only big corporate developers get their games released on consoles and the cost of development are enormous, compare this to the amiga500 where just about anyone with the proper programming skills could make a game from nothing to released product on their own.

if you look at the doujin scene (which is todays underground scene) it is absoluteley littered with shmups.

if you want to complain about dead genres you should look into FMV-adventures or point-n-click games because here you are out of your element.

[Motorherp]

I wish I had the skills to go about implementing them, it seems a lot of game dev's are lacking in imagination...

Come over to my website (link in my sig). We'll show you the ropes on how to develop and we run frequent rapid prototyping sessions which focus on trying to come up with new ideas as well as building people's confidence and experience with game development. If you truely are so bursting with great potential then show us.

[worstplayer]

Oh well, potentially interesting topic devolved into pointless flamewar, as usually.
w00ts, look at shmup-dev.com rapid prototype sessions which are all about innovation. Original shmups do exist, you just have to know where to look.

EDIT: Hehe, Same post one minute after Motorherp.

[spadgy]

Also...

Reading this thread I came up with all these clever things to say, and then sven666 goes and beats me to it!

Basically I agree with all that.

There's no doubt the genre is still alive. The a culture, a community, events, tournies, new releases, a collector market, shmup meets...

Gimmicks don't expand the horizons of the genre - subtle and complex re imagining of scoring a depth does.

And furthermore, the simplicity and purity of genre is probably what keeps many of us coming back again and again, in a gaming landscape where purity of concept over box-ticking gimmickry, hype-mongering and overzealous polish is all to often a rare thing.

And reiterating sven666's point, a shmup costs a surprising amount to develop compared to the return in these capitalist days. Still - there's plenty of interesting stuff in the indy scene.

Also - please w00t - if you have all these ace ideas but not the time or ability to realise them - share them! Most of us here are really up for something new and exciting - especially at a time when the genre's release schedule is dominated by sequels (sure-fire sellers). He who shares wins!

And yeah - let's bring back the P&C!

[Frederik]

My mind overflows with creative ideas whenever I play ikaruga for an extended period of time and my annoyance factor at the constraints of ikaruga reaches its pinnacle

Draw up your ideas on paper and send them to Cave or Treasure and make an offer that you can make 50/50 on the sales. That way, everybody wins and the genre is being saved from its impending death. Hooray!

Seriously though, do you even enjoy shmups? I get the feeling you just like to complain about them.

The mini-games on Space Invaders Extreme, beam battles on DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu, bullet buzzing in Psyvariar, and time slowing on ESPGaluda are all interesting additions to the basic flying, dodging, and shooting mechanic.

No doubt but they are more paradies and subtle twists on the basic mechanic rather then opening up the world completely to new ways to interact with the world and it's entitites in a shmup.

Ah, I see, you just don´t like being wrong.

[szycag]

I have trouble believing someone with the name "w00ts" isn't just trolling us

"w00ts"

[moonblood]

Games have to be fun, and I really really doubt you have any clue about that.

[Udderdude]

I'm moving this to shmups chat where it belongs, so it can evolve into a full-fledged flame war.

Oh you.

[freddiebamboo]

Quality troll thread right here