Dependence between game performance curve and a player type?

[moozooh]

I've been reading various messages from shmup players here in regards to solving others' gaming problems (usually brick walls in scoring or survival), and many of them can be divided into "keep at it" and "have a break".

In large part due to that, and also due to the disrepancy between my and my fellow players' performance curve, I've been noticing that there are at least two types of players which have a significant difference in high-level game performance depending on their playing schedule.

The first one is very much like a car accumulator: they need time to "recharge" to perform at full capacity. Their skills don't significantly deteriorate with time, so a few playing sessions can reasonably return them to the state they were at months, sometimes years ago. Sometimes, not playing a game for a long time make them perform better at it. Another trait that seems prevalent in this type is that the best performance usually happens within the first 1-1.5 hours of a given play session (usually 2-3 compete non-retried attempts). After that it gradually goes downhill, which might give a wrong impression of hitting a brick wall. This also seems the type of player that benefits the most from watching high level gameplay videos; it lets them compensate for the lack of repetition and provides strategies they don't have time to come up with themselves. This is a player that can become very good at a task, sometimes in little time, but never seems to truly excel at it.

The second one is a practician; a methodic (OCD required?) player that breaks a game into quants and repeats the same quant over and over until they get it right, then repeats it more until it comes to the muscle memory. Lack of practice usually hits them harder, since it is the main solution they use to overcome their brick walls and set new records. Physical limits aside, reaching such players' goals is usually a matter of free time and dedication to any given game. Any problem is to be overcome by more practice.

It seems to me that such behavior doesn't pertain to shmups. For instance, I'm of the first type. I have a short attention span, so constant repetition tires me, and I usually get the best results if alternating between making short sessions and watching other people play. I can hold my level of play in Quake 3 by playing once per half a year. I beat my Crimsonland survival record (which was already pretty high) in less than a week's time after not having played the game for three years. Most of my recent Touhou progress happened after a couple months long hiatus. Yesterday I had a few attempts at DDP getting 15-20 million, even though I heavily struggled to get as much ~three months ago (which was the previous time I played it, too).

Note that it doesn't mean one type has a clear advantage over another, or they can't have the same results. Basically, it sets a difference in learning curve and energy-efficience of goal-oriented play methods.

So, what is your type? Do you know of any other notable type of goal-oriented playing behavior as opposed to casual playing?

[dex]

Must... repeat... till... satisfied!

OCD is pretty useful at times.

[Arvandor]

I am very much the first type you described. To the point where it's almost disturbing. Like a very good cold reading.

The most noticable example of one of the traits I have, was when I first 1cced Mars Matrix. I spent months playing that game, and seemed to hit one of those walls. After some more play, I seemed to only be doing worse. I ended up shelving it (and most video games in general) for a few months. I finally decided to fire up Mars Matrix again, had one of the best runs ever on the FIRST RUN AFTER MONTHS OF PLAY, then proceeded to nab the 1cc within a month or so.

The other interesting thing I share with that first type you described, is also quite noteworthy during this STGT. I'll get my best score within the first day or two (6 hours of play, tops, usually my best run is earlier than that), and then I won't top it for the rest of the week (even if I get 20+ hours into the game).

I've hit one of those walls in Dodonpachi. I haven't beaten my old high score in quite some time, despite constant practice. I could probably use a break, and if I stayed away for a while, I'd come back stronger than ever. However, I can't seem to stay away long enough. When it comes to Dodonpachi, I'm just a glutton for punishment. I may NEVER get the 1st loop down, let alone beyond that.

[Frederik]

I think training shmups is similar to training with weights: Don´t strain yourself to much. If you try getting better at a certain game too hard your brain "locks up" and refuses to get any more input as it is busy with the things it already is trying to learn. Same with weights: If you train every day of the week your body will burn out and refuse to build up muscle tissue, and will become weaker than stronger. Resting is a very important part, it´s where the body builds up muscles.

I believe that same is true for learning: You´ll need to give your brain the time to process the stimulation you gave it, that´s why taking a break at a game results in suddenly being much better next time you play it. We already know that the brain learns best in its sleep when it´s recovering; that why people who play Tetris for the first time tend to dream of falling blocks so often.

So I guess I´m a passive learner and actually believe it has the advantage over the OCD player in the long run. I mean, you hear a lot of stories of people burning out on shmups because they took scoring way to seriously (Danmaku Gata for instance). I´m not saying that the OCD way doens´t work at all (I haven´t checked but I bet we have quite a few good examples of this), but I think that the passive learner (which is a bit of a misleading term) learns more effectively. Adding to that, I think that switching between a handful of different shmups instead of obsessing over ONE title for weeks and months has a beneficial effect, too. I´m surprised quite often how abilities learned in one game translate to other games.

[PROMETHEUS]

uuh I don't see why learning should be similar to working out like you're saying Frederik, there are good physical reasons why it's not good to work out very frequently, but Starcraft professionals for example just practice 10+ hours a day all week and all year. If they didn't, they wouldn't be good enough.

[spineshark]

I'm definitely the first one. I hadn't shot-em-up much for quite a while, but after coming back this fall I'm about as good as ever (or really, bad; but given that I guess having gotten worse would be worse).

The part about sessions peaking is especially true. If I'm trying to win and not "just practicing" then I'll quit after an hour or so, or one good credit if it doesn't feel like another one's coming on.

This style is really bad for learning STGT =p

[MR_Soren]

Definitely the first type. I do best at a game if I just play it once or twice a day for an extended period of time. Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury in STGT 08, so I try to have a short play session a few times a day. Perhaps do a run, do the dishes, do a run, take out the garbage, do a run, etc.

After 2-3 credits in a row, my scores always get worse.

My best runs are usually my first or second run after waking up in the morning.

[Rob]

Different approaches for different types of games.

[Enhasa]

My skills deteriorate greatly with time, and I tend to only focus on one shmup or even one game at a time, so I picked the second one (active). I don't think OCD is a good term for it since I'm not OCD personality-wise and I'm a big fan of variety. I'd rather play some game without learnable stages like TSS or Senko no Ronde.

I guess it's not a preference thing, it's an aptitude thing, and I do a lot better when I spend more time and learn everything and play for larger blocks of time. It's more efficient for me to play for 4 hours one day than 1 hour a day for 5 days. Also super-plays don't do much for me. I have to do something myself or even figure it out myself for it to help. I only watch them if it's a one-week thing like STGT with an accelerated curve (where being decent quickly is more important than being good) or if I've already been playing a game for a long time and hit a plateau. It's the same for all games. I always refuse help and never look at FAQs until I've beaten a game first. I think it gives a better understanding when it's all done with, and it's a lot more fun at least for me.

Since passive is more appealing, I will say that I do think there are people who are hindering their shmup progress by not taking a more active learning approach. Also some games are more suited to learning by one type as opposed to the other. I think Nomltest winning this week is a good test for this whole idea. I expect to do a lot worse this week than the previous ones (although I think a week of this game will be really boring so there's much more than one variable). Really, the more active learning is required, the better I do.

[Ruldra]

I'm definitely the second type. When I'm playing a shmup seriously, I use a different savestate for every stage, and practice each one over and over until I get it right. When a particular boss is too tough, I have a separate savestate just for him. Once it gets to muscle memory, I can even stop playing it for months, and when I get back, I'm doing as good as I did before after a few tries. Practice makes perfect.

However, keeping at it no matter what can be very detrimental, as frustration builds up and makes it tougher to accomplish anything. That's why I suggest taking a break every now and then, to keep your mind fresh and ready.

[spadgy]

While I'm the second type, OCD really isn't the word!

EDIT: Edited away some stuff about the mis-use of the term OCD that was way too off topic!

[Zebra Airforce]

Depends on my state of mind and the game in question. I can generally re-learn what I knew in a shooter in a fairly short amount of time, and often taking a short 1-2 day break will help relax me and put me in a better state of mind. Something like a platformer is harder for me to re-learn, though.

[Taylor]

Keeping at it only has good results if I’m enjoying it, if I’m getting frustrated I’m going to make no progress until I go away and cool off.

[FIL]

I guess i'm a passive learner, just not a very good one. I prefer shorter sessions with a break in them, long sessions just end up with me making more and more stupid mistakes, dodging into lone bullets etc.

[ForceDevice]

Passive learner here. I actually get surprised by how fast I seem to remember everything when I pick up a shmup I haven't played for a long time (which is good), and I also get tired really fast - after my third retry, I can't stand to play the first stage of ANY shmup for a while (which is bad). >_>

I guess everyone is a bit of both types though. Any practician will eventually get too bored or too frustrated to keep going at some point, and any passive learner will need some sort of previous experience acquired through training, to at least have an idea of what he's about to go through. The distinction between the two isn't perfectly clear, to the point that someone can be 100% OCD or 100% "was I that good before?".

BTW, this is quite an interesting subject. I haven't seen a thread like this here on Shmups Chat in a while.

[moozooh]

Well, it's obvious that both will have to practice and rest for a while, I'm talking an overall tendency which dictates a certain playing schedule (particularly, the proportion of how much to practice and how much to rest at a time to get the best results).

To those complaining about the usage of "OCD", I only used it once in my opening post and wasn't sure about it being correct either! I wouldn't know OCD from non-OCD because I've never experienced it myself. :D

[Ravid]

uuh I don't see why learning should be similar to working out like you're saying Frederik, there are good physical reasons why it's not good to work out very frequently, but Starcraft professionals for example just practice 10+ hours a day all week and all year. If they didn't, they wouldn't be good enough.

Speaking from experience, playing RTS is very different to playing shmups, and different practice techniques apply.
PS: I voted option 1 (I have a terribly short attention span)

[Icarus]

My method:
1) Play game a few times, try to understand scoring system (if there's one present).
2) Play game a few more times, try to estimate top-end stage scores.
3) Start learning via observation and experimentation. Creditfeed and use stage select/savestate/score attack to accelerate learning. Identify some problem areas while playing.
4) Estimate personal scoring limit for whole game. Set as target.
5) Optimise what I know using usual methods of practice; continue to experiment to find solutions to known and newly identified problem areas.
6) if (point4Achieved == false) {goto point5} else {point4++}

[lgb]

A methodic (OCD required?) player that breaks a game into quants and repeats the same quant over and over until they get it right, then repeats it more until it comes to the muscle memory.

Their skills don't significantly deteriorate with time, so a few playing sessions can reasonably return them to the state they were at months, sometimes years ago. Sometimes, not playing a game for a long time make them perform better at it. Another trait that seems prevalent in this type is that the best performance usually happens within the first 1-1.5 hours of a given play session (usually 2-3 compete non-retried attempts). After that it gradually goes downhill, which might give a wrong impression of hitting a brick wall. This is a player that can become very good at a task, sometimes in little time, but never seems to truly excel at it.

[Ganelon]

uuh I don't see why learning should be similar to working out like you're saying Frederik, there are good physical reasons why it's not good to work out very frequently, but Starcraft professionals for example just practice 10+ hours a day all week and all year. If they didn't, they wouldn't be good enough.

Speaking from experience, playing RTS is very different to playing shmups, and different practice techniques apply.
PS: I voted option 1 (I have a terribly short attention span)

It all depends on the level of play involved. I've known high level fighting game and FPS gamers who all say the same thing: they've gotten good by playing many hours each day every week. I honestly don't know a single top level oldschool ST player in the US who hasn't said they used to play 8 hours a day back when the game came out. Some younger folks try to say the games come naturally to them and while that may be applicable to a slight degree, it's BS; practice is what matters in the end.

From interviews with JP shmup gods, they say the exact same things. Some JP tourney players (not even winners) at Tougeki have also stated they need to practice 8 hours a day the few weeks leading up to the event to have a chance of winning. That's why I think ultimately, everybody will belong to the latter group at a high enough level of play. Honestly, if somebody doesn't put 1000 hours into a game, he/she can't even compete for world record results. Taking a break won't offer you any advantage whatsoever in this scope.

But yeah, for regular milestones like 1CC'ing a shooter (which, while impressive, generally only takes a few dozen hours at the most), I can certainly understand that some people get frustrated by dying at the same points and are thus affected by a "temporary losing mentality." For these folks, it would be better to let it cool off and fight another day. I'm of the opposing "rote memorization" camp in any situation though, maybe because I don't like to leave loose ends hanging and also because I tend to waste too much time remembering everything over again when I restart a game.

[Zebra Airforce]

I can certainly understand that some people get frustrated by dying at the same points and are thus affected by a "temporary losing mentality."

It's not about losing, it's about having a high the high level of concentration required for the job. It can be hard to drop right into your scoring pattern over and over, so eventually I'll just play around and expirement with new patterns if I still feel like playing. Of course, I would still practice 3-5 hrs some nights, but sometimes you just need to drop the controller and come back later, because once you reach a certain point it's less about learning and more about precision.

[spadgy]

To those complaining about the usage of "OCD", I only used it once in my opening post and wasn't sure about it being correct either! I wouldn't know OCD from non-OCD because I've never experienced it myself.

Of course - really no worries! OCD is a very overused word, because it does mildly relate to the way a lot of us humans are, and I used to use it all the time until I had a personal experience. It's simply very rare to actually experience proper OCD first hand. In my first thread I'd rambled on about it a lot - probably about 500 words. (Not a sob story and I don't want a bit of sympathy, but my dad was indefinitely committed to a home for the severely mentally ill thanks to OCD that went through the roof, and ever since it's made me very aware of how easily misused the term is. I, by the way, still have a great laugh with my dad every time I visit him, and usually we get in trouble with the nurses for misbehaving with some mischeif or other - so it's all good!).

Anyway - unless you want to PM me because you're going through something similar (I can really appreciate how good it is to talk with somebody when you go through that crap) it's a little off topic here and I don't want to derail this thread, and moozah - don't feel bad mate! I hesitate to post this message because I don't want to make a forum member I like a lot feel bad, but I do want to post it as it's something dear to my heart...

[PROMETHEUS]

My method:
1) Play game a few times, try to understand scoring system (if there's one present).
2) Play game a few more times, try to estimate top-end stage scores.
3) Start learning via observation and experimentation. Creditfeed and use stage select/savestate/score attack to accelerate learning. Identify some problem areas while playing.
4) Estimate personal scoring limit for whole game. Set as target.
5) Optimise what I know using usual methods of practice; continue to experiment to find solutions to known and newly identified problem areas.
6) if (point4Achieved == false) {goto point5} else {point4++}

ya that's nearly exactly what I do as well and I think it's the best way to practice, for maximum efficiency. Poor japanese arcade players probably have to spend 5 times as much time on a game for the same results due to the absence of savestates. And people practicing differently might waste a LOT of time as well, depending on how they practice exactly. I'm sure an inefficient practice routine can multiply playtime by 10 for the same given result sometimes.

[Ravid]

uuh I don't see why learning should be similar to working out like you're saying Frederik, there are good physical reasons why it's not good to work out very frequently, but Starcraft professionals for example just practice 10+ hours a day all week and all year. If they didn't, they wouldn't be good enough.

Speaking from experience, playing RTS is very different to playing shmups, and different practice techniques apply.
PS: I voted option 1 (I have a terribly short attention span)

It all depends on the level of play involved. I've known high level fighting game and FPS gamers who all say the same thing: they've gotten good by playing many hours each day every week. I honestly don't know a single top level oldschool ST player in the US who hasn't said they used to play 8 hours a day back when the game came out. Some younger folks try to say the games come naturally to them and while that may be applicable to a slight degree, it's BS; practice is what matters in the end.

From interviews with JP shmup gods, they say the exact same things. Some JP tourney players (not even winners) at Tougeki have also stated they need to practice 8 hours a day the few weeks leading up to the event to have a chance of winning. That's why I think ultimately, everybody will belong to the latter group at a high enough level of play. Honestly, if somebody doesn't put 1000 hours into a game, he/she can't even compete for world record results. Taking a break won't offer you any advantage whatsoever in this scope.

But yeah, for regular milestones like 1CC'ing a shooter (which, while impressive, generally only takes a few dozen hours at the most), I can certainly understand that some people get frustrated by dying at the same points and are thus affected by a "temporary losing mentality." For these folks, it would be better to let it cool off and fight another day. I'm of the opposing "rote memorization" camp in any situation though, maybe because I don't like to leave loose ends hanging and also because I tend to waste too much time remembering everything over again when I restart a game.

That's quite interesting information; I know RTS takes a lot of learning (I was top 40 in SupCom for about 3 months, and I played 3-4 hours a day, though I'll concede that supcom players achieved nowhere near the high level of SC players); but with shmups my performance takes a nosedive quite drastically after the first couple of credits (more if i'm just starting a game).
Maybe that's why I'm not as good with shmups.

once you reach a certain point it's less about learning and more about precision.

This is my main issue with practicing for long stretches.

[Frederik]

I'm definitely the second type. When I'm playing a shmup seriously, I use a different savestate for every stage, and practice each one over and over until I get it right. When a particular boss is too tough, I have a separate savestate just for him. Once it gets to muscle memory, I can even stop playing it for months, and when I get back, I'm doing as good as I did before after a few tries. Practice makes perfect.

I really love doing savestates, that´s why it hurts me so much that newer versions of MAME Mac OS X doesn´t do saves in DDP anymore (and I have to stick with the kinda crappy MacMAME). Practicing the stage 3 boss and level 4 was my favourite part about the whole game. And actually that´s the reason why I would take a MAME version of a game over a PCB or console port without thinking twice about it. The downside is that I actually didn´t bother with playing the game in a full run anymore, but I don´t care

uuh I don't see why learning should be similar to working out like you're saying Frederik, there are good physical reasons why it's not good to work out very frequently, but Starcraft professionals for example just practice 10+ hours a day all week and all year. If they didn't, they wouldn't be good enough.

That might very well be the case and maybe my analogy was BS, but it´s not like Starcraft pro players live a life I wanna have. Some of these guys have tons of female fans but aren´t allowed a girlfriend since they have to keep training in their tiny sweatshop cells. I don´t think these guys will last longer than a few years, without a weekend, spare time, girlfriends or any distraction and relief at all.

Also, I think that when referring to these soulcrushing grind training sessions, we´re talking about the top 5% of skill increase. I think that since most RTS pro players are on such a high-end skill level already, they will have to work really hard for that last tiny increase in skill that will make them win. For the pedestrian shmup player who doesn´t take things quite as seriously as the veteran players, having some variety and creative breaks in it might be better - or at least it will prevent you ending up hating the game in question.

And I actually like repetition and training in shmups a lot, as long as it is *gasp* fun. By that I mean I might very well play a certain shmup very often for a long time, but not because I play after a schedule (not that this is wrong in my eyes - whatever floats you boat). However, I still do take shmupping serious to some extend, since it´s such a perfomance-based genre.