Hopefully will be posting details about it soon. At least a demo will be completed for Dream Build Play (September 23rd, 2008).
[EDIT:]
Here is the offical page of our shmup, Duality: ZF:
http://xona.com/dualityzf/
a greetings post
a greetings post
Hello, I was just introduced to these forums as my partner and I are making a 2D shooter for the Xbox 360... it will not be much, but we want it to be fun and multiplayer. We LOVE shooters and we are excited to see what we can create out of that love!
Hopefully will be posting details about it soon. At least a demo will be completed for Dream Build Play (September 23rd, 2008).
[EDIT:]
Here is the offical page of our shmup, Duality: ZF:
http://xona.com/dualityzf/
Hopefully will be posting details about it soon. At least a demo will be completed for Dream Build Play (September 23rd, 2008).
[EDIT:]
Here is the offical page of our shmup, Duality: ZF:
http://xona.com/dualityzf/
Last edited by Xonatron on Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oops, I should have directed you all to this new thread, where I have posted two videos:
"introducing Duality: ZF (two month alpha demo)"
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=22482
"introducing Duality: ZF (two month alpha demo)"
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=22482
You guys are in Canada, eh? >_>
You should look at the shmups I made w/ a friend or two .. http://rydia.net/udder/prog/xop/ http://rydia.net/udder/prog/xopblack/
You should look at the shmups I made w/ a friend or two .. http://rydia.net/udder/prog/xop/ http://rydia.net/udder/prog/xopblack/
Yup, Canada! Where are you from?
Oh... XOP. I remember downloading this a long time, ago, and playing through it. A crazy bullet hell shooter that was quite fun, if I recall correctly. So there are two versions? I believe I only played XOP, not XOP Black. I'll have to download them and take another look. Great job, guys!
Oh... XOP. I remember downloading this a long time, ago, and playing through it. A crazy bullet hell shooter that was quite fun, if I recall correctly. So there are two versions? I believe I only played XOP, not XOP Black. I'll have to download them and take another look. Great job, guys!
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Pixel_Outlaw
- Posts: 2636
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:27 am
Just try to keep it simple. Most people do not like the following things in a shmup.
BAD IDEAS:
Bullets that are too small
Hitboxes that are too big (many modern games have small hitboxes on the ship we are talking like 2/3 of the ship's sprite area at the largest)
Lifebars that compensate for undodgable bullet patterns
Enemies that fire as they leave the bottom of the screen (you need a dead zone where enemies cannot fire after)
Realism (most shmups are not too real looking they are meant to escape reality not jump from one to another)
Ship inertia . (inertia will give you an instant F because we need to put our ship in position right away, not wait for it to stop)
Tips:
Put out some serious bullet patterns all being completely dodgeable but challenging. Don't make the bullets too sparse and also don't make them nonsense and just bullet "spam". Aim for a difficulty curve between the first and last level. The first level may be an entry level but the last level needs to ask something of the experienced player.
Make the game have a stylized color palette. Enough of "the ground is brown sky is blue and land is green". Pick a color palette and go with it. Really use some thought and create a mood with your saturation levels and also you intensity of colors. Try not to use too many hues and saturation levels at once. Elements that share no color palette will just break the visual flow of the game and feel thrown together,
Ensure that your background layer is not as visually demanding as the obstacle and sprite layers. The background needs to take a backseat to the foreground. We need to be able to focus on the meaningful objects first the background is just icing.
Shmups are a very simplistic genre. Whistles and bells will detract if you really go crazy with extra features. We don't need much story we just need some innovative patterns to dodge and a way to return fire while being challenged in a completely reasonable way. Every bullet barrage has a path. The game MUST be clearable on one credit. You should NEVER trap the player in a hopeless pattern of fire and use a lifebar as a cop-out.
The Japanese have set the definition of a good shmup. They know what they are doing and it would be wise to take a page from their book while furthering your style and idea.
BAD IDEAS:
Bullets that are too small
Hitboxes that are too big (many modern games have small hitboxes on the ship we are talking like 2/3 of the ship's sprite area at the largest)
Lifebars that compensate for undodgable bullet patterns
Enemies that fire as they leave the bottom of the screen (you need a dead zone where enemies cannot fire after)
Realism (most shmups are not too real looking they are meant to escape reality not jump from one to another)
Ship inertia . (inertia will give you an instant F because we need to put our ship in position right away, not wait for it to stop)
Tips:
Put out some serious bullet patterns all being completely dodgeable but challenging. Don't make the bullets too sparse and also don't make them nonsense and just bullet "spam". Aim for a difficulty curve between the first and last level. The first level may be an entry level but the last level needs to ask something of the experienced player.
Make the game have a stylized color palette. Enough of "the ground is brown sky is blue and land is green". Pick a color palette and go with it. Really use some thought and create a mood with your saturation levels and also you intensity of colors. Try not to use too many hues and saturation levels at once. Elements that share no color palette will just break the visual flow of the game and feel thrown together,
Ensure that your background layer is not as visually demanding as the obstacle and sprite layers. The background needs to take a backseat to the foreground. We need to be able to focus on the meaningful objects first the background is just icing.
Shmups are a very simplistic genre. Whistles and bells will detract if you really go crazy with extra features. We don't need much story we just need some innovative patterns to dodge and a way to return fire while being challenged in a completely reasonable way. Every bullet barrage has a path. The game MUST be clearable on one credit. You should NEVER trap the player in a hopeless pattern of fire and use a lifebar as a cop-out.
The Japanese have set the definition of a good shmup. They know what they are doing and it would be wise to take a page from their book while furthering your style and idea.
Some of the best shmups don't actually end in a vowel.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
Pixel_Outlaw, you really know what you are talking about. And you have just reinforced that we know what we are doing. Every one of your "BAD IDEAS", we already know of and avoided or discoverd during testing and removed.
I just have to rant about lifebars for a moment. It's unreal how many people "solve" gameplay problems with a lifebar, instead of redesigning the game. (By the way, the big boss attack in our second video is impossible at the insane level of difficulty shown and will be completely re-worked.)
One thing going for us, is if something does not work, we will remove it. We do not want to promote or push new ideas, we want to make the most kick-ass 2d shooter possible with our resources.
I would love for you to elaborate on the stylized color palette. Do you mean use one palette for the ENTIRE game? Background and enemies? All levels? And, do not have different hues and brightness of similar background objects (grass, trees, dirt, etc.) across different levels?
That was an amazing post. Thank you very much for your input.
I just have to rant about lifebars for a moment. It's unreal how many people "solve" gameplay problems with a lifebar, instead of redesigning the game. (By the way, the big boss attack in our second video is impossible at the insane level of difficulty shown and will be completely re-worked.)
One thing going for us, is if something does not work, we will remove it. We do not want to promote or push new ideas, we want to make the most kick-ass 2d shooter possible with our resources.
I would love for you to elaborate on the stylized color palette. Do you mean use one palette for the ENTIRE game? Background and enemies? All levels? And, do not have different hues and brightness of similar background objects (grass, trees, dirt, etc.) across different levels?
That was an amazing post. Thank you very much for your input.
Pixel_Outlaw, we have thought of every one of these, and have implemented them all with exception to the "enemies firing as they leave the bottom of the screen", which we have full plans to implement.Pixel_Outlaw wrote:BAD IDEAS:
Bullets that are too small
Hitboxes that are too big (many modern games have small hitboxes on the ship we are talking like 2/3 of the ship's sprite area at the largest)
Lifebars that compensate for undodgable bullet patterns
Enemies that fire as they leave the bottom of the screen (you need a dead zone where enemies cannot fire after)
Realism (most shmups are not too real looking they are meant to escape reality not jump from one to another)
Ship inertia . (inertia will give you an instant F because we need to put our ship in position right away, not wait for it to stop)
It's obvious you and I are on the same level. It's refreshing to talk to people who really know what they are talking about.
I also agree with all of your tips. I've seen shooters where the bullets are just 'bullet spam', and it shows. The Raiden series is great for decent bullet patterns.Pixel_Outlaw wrote:Tips:
Put out some serious bullet patterns all being completely dodgeable but challenging. Don't make the bullets too sparse and also don't make them nonsense and just bullet "spam". Aim for a difficulty curve between the first and last level. The first level may be an entry level but the last level needs to ask something of the experienced player.
Make the game have a stylized color palette. Enough of "the ground is brown sky is blue and land is green". Pick a color palette and go with it. Really use some thought and create a mood with your saturation levels and also you intensity of colors. Try not to use too many hues and saturation levels at once. Elements that share no color palette will just break the visual flow of the game and feel thrown together,
Ensure that your background layer is not as visually demanding as the obstacle and sprite layers. The background needs to take a backseat to the foreground. We need to be able to focus on the meaningful objects first the background is just icing.
Shmups are a very simplistic genre. Whistles and bells will detract if you really go crazy with extra features. We don't need much story we just need some innovative patterns to dodge and a way to return fire while being challenged in a completely reasonable way. Every bullet barrage has a path. The game MUST be clearable on one credit. You should NEVER trap the player in a hopeless pattern of fire and use a lifebar as a cop-out.
The Japanese have set the definition of a good shmup. They know what they are doing and it would be wise to take a page from their book while furthering your style and idea.
As for colors, it's hard to make a nice looking background, but have it not stick out at the same time. But, we are striving to make it clear on what you can attack, and what is dead. Our videos don't show this, yet. We want gameplay above all. We don't want people accidentally running into an enemy they thought was dead. Our enemies are generally colored using a specific style of coloring, with some that are off, for variety. I think variety is important for both enemy design and bullet patterns, and even within a single boss itself, to keep it from being boring to fight. Again, Raiden II kicks ass at all of this. Even my beloved Thunder Force II falls short.
We are very aware that bells and whistles can distract from the actual game play. We don't want particle effects disturbing the action. I think this is one point we will succeed on where as most of our competition is too concerned with graphics, not realizing it's hurting the gameplay. But, they may know something about marketing that we don't. Regardless, we're going to make this a game we want to play ourselves, and hopefully that's enough to make it work.
Thanks for your tips, they are appreciated!
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Pixel_Outlaw
- Posts: 2636
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:27 am
Good luck gents. 
You might want to check out Shmup-Dev in my sig. We are a community of shmup developers. Mostly freeware developers but there are some commercial games too. You will probably get more feedback there than here. Getting people to visit this part of the forum is like pulling teeth.
Well maybe not develop a color palette for the entire game but try to make a color theme for each level. What many developers forget is that each color they use has it's own identity and mood that it creates. There are too many games that look like a clown exploded. I think one major thing people forget is the saturation component of colors. If you take a screenshot of a game and the saturation levels are all over the place the game elements really look unrelated. I'm not saying anything too fancy but please try to create a mood for each level using color. Don't feel you have to color things realistically because many times choosing a few colors as a theme for a level really ties the game together.
When I make my simple little shmups I usually choose 3 hues and then try to keep those as a theme throughout my level. I still alter colors for different things but I try to maintain a color theme. It is sort of a design rule of thumb to try and choose a few key hues and then make the design work.
Maybe you have an ice level you might decide to have some very pleasant cool hues for the level itself. If you really wanted your enemies to stand out you might choose the compliment of that color a warm color they would be orange or yellow. Compliments for hues really show each other off because they are the opposite end 180 degrees away from the color in question.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/231 ... ce.jpg?v=0
I guess this is how I would color. (using the HSV color model)
A small handful of Hues ( 3 or 4) creating a theme per level
2 or 3 levels of Saturation (best left to describe background and foreground you might even just want one level for consistency)
Large variations in Value for shading sprites and features.
This is not law by any means but only personal color theory.
You may be a better artist than me but I'm elaborating. A few slight changes in hue creates visual interest and unity if it is carried out properly between elements of a level. Large changes in saturation are often undesirable between elements. And Values describe how light hits an object so these are used to describe how much light is hitting spot aka shading.
You might want to check out Shmup-Dev in my sig. We are a community of shmup developers. Mostly freeware developers but there are some commercial games too. You will probably get more feedback there than here. Getting people to visit this part of the forum is like pulling teeth.
Well maybe not develop a color palette for the entire game but try to make a color theme for each level. What many developers forget is that each color they use has it's own identity and mood that it creates. There are too many games that look like a clown exploded. I think one major thing people forget is the saturation component of colors. If you take a screenshot of a game and the saturation levels are all over the place the game elements really look unrelated. I'm not saying anything too fancy but please try to create a mood for each level using color. Don't feel you have to color things realistically because many times choosing a few colors as a theme for a level really ties the game together.
When I make my simple little shmups I usually choose 3 hues and then try to keep those as a theme throughout my level. I still alter colors for different things but I try to maintain a color theme. It is sort of a design rule of thumb to try and choose a few key hues and then make the design work.
Maybe you have an ice level you might decide to have some very pleasant cool hues for the level itself. If you really wanted your enemies to stand out you might choose the compliment of that color a warm color they would be orange or yellow. Compliments for hues really show each other off because they are the opposite end 180 degrees away from the color in question.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/231 ... ce.jpg?v=0
I guess this is how I would color. (using the HSV color model)
A small handful of Hues ( 3 or 4) creating a theme per level
2 or 3 levels of Saturation (best left to describe background and foreground you might even just want one level for consistency)
Large variations in Value for shading sprites and features.
This is not law by any means but only personal color theory.
You may be a better artist than me but I'm elaborating. A few slight changes in hue creates visual interest and unity if it is carried out properly between elements of a level. Large changes in saturation are often undesirable between elements. And Values describe how light hits an object so these are used to describe how much light is hitting spot aka shading.
Some of the best shmups don't actually end in a vowel.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
Don't forget "upgrade shops", the pale horse of death in this "End of Days", apocalyptic list of shmup design mechanics.
Bill
Bill
the2bears - the indie shmup blog
Thanks, Pixel_Outlaw. I think we are on the right track with just about everything. There are only a few details we need to sort out.
What comes to mind is
1) a scoring system to make people keep coming back (even though XBLCG does not allow leaderboards, we want our game ready for a potential Xbox LIVE Arcade contracto), and
2) difficulty settings (i.e., how should the game be harder?)
We are thinking hard on this, and have tested out various difficulty increase already. We do not like increasing the speed of the bullets, as it changes the type of game from a reaction-based game (slow bullets) to a plan-ahead game like pac-man (fast bullets). I want our game to be reaction-based, not a "make sure you are in the right spot beforehand" style.
What comes to mind is
1) a scoring system to make people keep coming back (even though XBLCG does not allow leaderboards, we want our game ready for a potential Xbox LIVE Arcade contracto), and
2) difficulty settings (i.e., how should the game be harder?)
We are thinking hard on this, and have tested out various difficulty increase already. We do not like increasing the speed of the bullets, as it changes the type of game from a reaction-based game (slow bullets) to a plan-ahead game like pac-man (fast bullets). I want our game to be reaction-based, not a "make sure you are in the right spot beforehand" style.
I forgot to update this thread. There are screenshots and videos on our official Duality: ZF webpage, as well as links to our YouTube channel and Facebook group:Udderdude wrote:Screenshots .. kthx >_>
Duality: ZF
http://xona.com/dualityzf/
My impressions from watching the Oct 2008 video:Matthew Doucette wrote:I forgot to update this thread. There are screenshots and videos on our official Duality: ZF webpage, as well as links to our YouTube channel and Facebook group:Udderdude wrote:Screenshots .. kthx >_>
Duality: ZF
http://xona.com/dualityzf/
How many skill levels do you really need? Some people allready thought XOP had too many (7 in total), apparently you've gone totally nuts and added like 13 skill levels. Unless that's not even the hardest one. o_O
The actual game looks pretty bullet hell-ish, at least at that difficulty. Is there any sort of scoring system? Will you get more points for doing certian things, etc? A good scoring system is what a lot of people around here look for in a shmup these days ..
How are the two ships controlled? I hope you add support for something like 2 HRAPs hooked up at the same time.
The enemies falling on the ground and just lying there looks kinda silly, they should explode and leave a crater. Also don't really like how when you move towards the top of the screen, it scrolls up. That should really be in a fixed position.
Other than that .. looks pretty hardcore. I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Udderdude, I answered many of your concerns and more on our xbox.com forum thread. I'll paste it here for you. Anyone reading my other threads on shmups forum will notice this is a repeat post, but I hope that's ok:
http://forums.xbox.com/23504455/ShowPost.aspxThe November 19th, 2008 launch date has not been met. DUALITY: ZF is not finished. The current launch date is set for the end of November, 2008.
DUAL PLAY lets you control both fighters with the left and right thumbsticks. The d-Pad also controls the "left" fighter.
DUAL PLAY is optional. Use it only if you want. Solo play is default.
DUAL PLAY is for beginners and experts alike. Beginners should dual play in the easy modes. Our weakest beta tester, who never plays video games, beat stage one with dual play.
DUAL PLAY is not difficult to grasp in gameplay. All our beta testers managed it within a few game plays. Most Xbox gamers are already used to controlling each thumb independently for separate purposes.
DUALITY: ZF is not an expert-only bullet hell (danmaku, bullet curtain) shoot'em up. Anyone can play it. A four year old beat stage one in the easiest mode, including the intimidating boss you see in the YouTube videos.
DUALITY: ZF grows to match the skill of every player on the planet with unlimited unlockable difficulty modes. Elite players will have a "bullet hell" style experience, but this is out of the ordinary. We are excited to see gameplay captures of these most elite players.
DUALITY: ZF allows eight independently controlled fighters on the screen at once. This is possible via four players each playing "dual play". The impact of eight times the firepower blew us away, and forced us to offer additional unlockable difficulty modes to challenge such extreme gameplay.
The DUALITY: ZF scoring system awards points proportional to the enemy strength and attack. The same scoring formula used for all difficulty modes. If the enemy is twice as hard to kill, you get twice the points. The scoring system does not "care" about the difficulty mode, only how tough the enemies are. It was important to make scores from all difficulty modes compatible, and we acheived this.
DUALITY: ZF will sell for 200 Microsoft points, unless we cannot meet the (difficult) 50MB size limit and are forced to sell for 400 points. We will do everything we can to meet that limit. Please understand the game is still in development.
Thank you all for your interest. We hope to offer one of the more exciting and fun shooters on the Xbox 360, not just counting Community Games.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Doucette / Xona Games
game: Duality: ZF
Last edited by Xonatron on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PROMETHEUS
- Posts: 2450
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:00 am
- Location: France
A second reply to Udderdude to address what the quote of myself above missed, and to answer some of it inmore detail:
- We removed the up/down scrolling.
- Infinite difficulty modes were necessary because 8 fighters at once can completely dominate any difficult mode that is hard for a single fighter. Further, infinite (although gamers won't know this), unlockable difficulty modes were the only way to make sure we challeneged everyone on the planet, even with 8 fighters at once.
- Average player will see only a few difficulty levels. The difficulty you see in our October 2008 tech demo is actually reached at a far lower difficult level than 13 (or whatever it was I had chosen in that demo).
- Scoring system kicks ass, and matches game domination. Unlike many scoring systems, you will not change your game play style once you learn about it. Kill everything as fast as possible, get the highest score. It even works and matches across various difficulty levels.
- "I hope you add support for something like 2 HRAPs hooked up at the same time." what is this? please explain it to me!
- we want crators for the enemies, we'll see if we can add that in soon.
Thanks for the compliments!
- We removed the up/down scrolling.
- Infinite difficulty modes were necessary because 8 fighters at once can completely dominate any difficult mode that is hard for a single fighter. Further, infinite (although gamers won't know this), unlockable difficulty modes were the only way to make sure we challeneged everyone on the planet, even with 8 fighters at once.
- Average player will see only a few difficulty levels. The difficulty you see in our October 2008 tech demo is actually reached at a far lower difficult level than 13 (or whatever it was I had chosen in that demo).
- Scoring system kicks ass, and matches game domination. Unlike many scoring systems, you will not change your game play style once you learn about it. Kill everything as fast as possible, get the highest score. It even works and matches across various difficulty levels.
- "I hope you add support for something like 2 HRAPs hooked up at the same time." what is this? please explain it to me!
- we want crators for the enemies, we'll see if we can add that in soon.
Thanks for the compliments!
I want to post about our insane amount of difficulty modes some more.
We had a real problem trying to make our game both easy for newcomers and hard for experts. This was hard enough considering just one player controlling one fighter. Most games acheive this, and we did as well. What blew us away was having eight fighters on screen at once, or more specifically, having eight times the firepower as regular play. (Eight players are possible with four players all using DUAL PLAY.) Our most challenging difficulty modes because a breeze to play with that type of firepower. Imagine any shoot'em up game where every enemy now takes only 1/8th the time to kill. Even bosses. You walk through the stage as if it were nothing.
One solution we rejected was making the difficulty mode jump higher, behind the scenes, whenever there are more than one player. In other words, double the difficulty if you are playing two players. Quad it for four players. We did not like this idea, because you can join forces mid-gameplay. I can be half-way through the game, and you can join in at that point. (Yes, we know you can cheat the game by pretending you are a second player and joining in right before your last fighter dies, but you cannot cheat the score this way.) Anyway, we also rejected it because we like the idea of seeing how much two players can help out on any given difficulty mode. So we wanted the difficulty modes to remain unchanged no matter the number of players playing.
The only solution was extra difficulty modes. We hide that there are so many of them, at first anyway, by making them unlockable.
Now... you might ask, is there really a need for 10+ difficulty modes? The answer is, yes. If you hypothetically consider the extreme case where each additional difficulty mode is twice as difficult as the one before it, it takes an additional 3 difficulty modes just to make the game 8 times as hard. 2^3=8. 8 times as hard to match 8 times the fighters, that is. You would have to be 3 difficulty modes higher with 8 fighters to match the difficulty of a single fighter. The reality is, making the difficulty double each mode is way too steep of a climb. And consider that we already need at least 4 difficulty modes just for the range of expertise of single-player gameplay. And you end up with a lot of difficulty modes. How many? Who knows. It depends on just how good the best Duality: ZF players are!
I think it's ok that only the elite will ever see these extreme modes.
And I find it fascinating that the scoring system we created is difficulty-mode-independent. The scores of your games are all compatible no matter what difficulty mode you are in. Of course, to break each plateau of scoring potential of any given difficulty mode, you will have to bump up the difficulty!
We had a real problem trying to make our game both easy for newcomers and hard for experts. This was hard enough considering just one player controlling one fighter. Most games acheive this, and we did as well. What blew us away was having eight fighters on screen at once, or more specifically, having eight times the firepower as regular play. (Eight players are possible with four players all using DUAL PLAY.) Our most challenging difficulty modes because a breeze to play with that type of firepower. Imagine any shoot'em up game where every enemy now takes only 1/8th the time to kill. Even bosses. You walk through the stage as if it were nothing.
One solution we rejected was making the difficulty mode jump higher, behind the scenes, whenever there are more than one player. In other words, double the difficulty if you are playing two players. Quad it for four players. We did not like this idea, because you can join forces mid-gameplay. I can be half-way through the game, and you can join in at that point. (Yes, we know you can cheat the game by pretending you are a second player and joining in right before your last fighter dies, but you cannot cheat the score this way.) Anyway, we also rejected it because we like the idea of seeing how much two players can help out on any given difficulty mode. So we wanted the difficulty modes to remain unchanged no matter the number of players playing.
The only solution was extra difficulty modes. We hide that there are so many of them, at first anyway, by making them unlockable.
Now... you might ask, is there really a need for 10+ difficulty modes? The answer is, yes. If you hypothetically consider the extreme case where each additional difficulty mode is twice as difficult as the one before it, it takes an additional 3 difficulty modes just to make the game 8 times as hard. 2^3=8. 8 times as hard to match 8 times the fighters, that is. You would have to be 3 difficulty modes higher with 8 fighters to match the difficulty of a single fighter. The reality is, making the difficulty double each mode is way too steep of a climb. And consider that we already need at least 4 difficulty modes just for the range of expertise of single-player gameplay. And you end up with a lot of difficulty modes. How many? Who knows. It depends on just how good the best Duality: ZF players are!
I think it's ok that only the elite will ever see these extreme modes.
And I find it fascinating that the scoring system we created is difficulty-mode-independent. The scores of your games are all compatible no matter what difficulty mode you are in. Of course, to break each plateau of scoring potential of any given difficulty mode, you will have to bump up the difficulty!
So basically the scoring system is like Raiden 3, where you get a score bonus for blowing up enemies as soon as possible?
HRAP is a kind of arcade stick, Hori Real Arcade Pro. Here's the 360 version .. http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-dd-70-2xsv.html
Here's an example of the kind of play I was thinking of with two of these .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToBdzV7w5Pc
Also, I don't really like the idea of infinite difficulty modes .. there really should be a cap at some point.
HRAP is a kind of arcade stick, Hori Real Arcade Pro. Here's the 360 version .. http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-dd-70-2xsv.html
Here's an example of the kind of play I was thinking of with two of these .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToBdzV7w5Pc
Also, I don't really like the idea of infinite difficulty modes .. there really should be a cap at some point.
I took a quick look at one of your preview videos and one of the things that seemed to stand out as a potential problem (possibly on higher skill levels when there are butt tons of bullets flying around) is the particle explosions of the larger enemies blending in with the projectiles.
The youtube videos may not show the full detail - but it looks like the explosion particles closely resemble the projectile shapes.
The youtube videos may not show the full detail - but it looks like the explosion particles closely resemble the projectile shapes.
SiKrAiKeN: While I don't think everyone here -is- a Ninja Turtle, I DO believe everyone here has the potential to be a Ninja Turtle. No doubt.
It is much more than just that. The speed of kill is only one multipier of the enemy score. Others are based on strength and attack, which are difficulty mode independent, and make sense across difficulty modes, thus making all scores compatible no matter what mode you are in.Udderdude wrote:So basically the scoring system is like Raiden 3, where you get a score bonus for blowing up enemies as soon as possible?
Plus, the enemy kill multiplier in our game is better than in Raiden 3. There is no maximum score. I think Raiden 3 caps the multiplier at 2X. We don't. So if you have eight fighters killing the same enemy, you kill it 8x faster and get 8x the points (split evenly so you get the same points as you would if you killed it with only one player 1/8th as fast). Additional players do not "steal" score potential from you, nor do they give you extra potential.
Very cool and fair scoring system. It "just works", no matter the number of players, no matter the difficulty mode. It is fair and just in all cases.
Now I know what you mean. You want to be able to play DUAL PLAY on two controllers. Well you can already do this with any Xbox game, as with ours, but the game will think of you as two players and thus two scores. Combining of such scores will probably not be implemented in our game. Is this something we should concentrate on? It will greatly complicate our menu systems, and our introduction of DUAL PLAY to players who know nothing about it. Should we look more into this, or is DUAL PLAY on one controller good enough for now? With HRAP I do not see a right thumbstick, so maybe DUAL PLAY will be impossible on just one of them.Udderdude wrote:HRAP is a kind of arcade stick, Hori Real Arcade Pro. Here's the 360 version .. http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-dd-70-2xsv.html
Here's an example of the kind of play I was thinking of with two of these .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToBdzV7w5Pc
The cap will be the difficulty mode that you cannot complete the game (or maybe just the first stage) in. It will be different for everyone. If we were to cap the difficulty modes, I cannot see why someone who can complete the game in the hardest mode should not be offered an additional mode to test out.Udderdude wrote:Also, I don't really like the idea of infinite difficulty modes .. there really should be a cap at some point.
Why do you want a cap? Do you want the game to eventually "switch gears" and become more about perfecting the game play in the hardest mode, as opposed to trying to complete the hardest mode possible? I'm not sure which is better.
The reason we cannot have a cap is because of the eight fighters in 4x local multiplayer, all in DUAL PLAY, where the firepower just dominates any given level that can be beat in single player mode. We need additional modes of difficulty for this extreme gameplay. At least 5 or 6 more modes to get a eight player game that matches a single player game in difficulty. A cap at this point would be so high as to become meaningless to even have it.
I don't think I can stress enough just how much eight players can dominate a game that is even impossible to a single player. It was the reason, above all else, that we had to change the way we thought about our difficulty modes. We originally wanted a cap, too.
Good call. You are right. The explosions have been changed already. Check the screen shots: http://xona.com/dualityzf/ We are doing everything we can to make the distinction between enemy fire and everything else as great as possible.landshark wrote:...it looks like the explosion particles closely resemble the projectile shapes.
Wow this looks very promissing indeed. Please port to ps3. I love how you guys are asking for tips/suggestions/criticism. I have none other than what has been discussed. I'd like to play a demo and let you know how it could be improved or added in a sequel.
Good job!
What about a tate option and you will go into the record books as the first commercial 9:16 Tate game ever!
That would make me buy a new wallmount for my tv so that I can tate my 50" plasma tv to play this!
Can I pay you guys to make it with tate 9:16 for the ps3? lol, I have no such funds....
Good job!
What about a tate option and you will go into the record books as the first commercial 9:16 Tate game ever!
That would make me buy a new wallmount for my tv so that I can tate my 50" plasma tv to play this!
Can I pay you guys to make it with tate 9:16 for the ps3? lol, I have no such funds....
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worstplayer
- Posts: 861
- Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:48 pm
- Location: Slovakia
As for bullet visibility, just make them blink slightly, it really helps. (all Cave games do this)
Another option is to add transparent "glow" of different color around them (as seen in Geometry Wars and Ikaruga).
As extra bonus, those tricks also make bullets look like plasma rather than just moving circles.
Another option is to add transparent "glow" of different color around them (as seen in Geometry Wars and Ikaruga).
As extra bonus, those tricks also make bullets look like plasma rather than just moving circles.
"A game isn't bad because you resent it. A game is bad because it's shitty."