Legal criminals ie.Paypal

[Michaelm]

Ever used the paypal buyers protection ?

When you get send illegal goods when the auction states them as the full product and you use paypal buyers protection you get stuck in this automated system in where paypal just tells you to send the goods back to the seller and they also note that they can't guarantee that you will get your money back.

So, they behave illegal by knowingly ordering you to send the 'evidence' back to the seller, so he can just sell it again making paypal even more money.

So paypal buyers protetection is just a big scam to cover up any illegal activities that are done through their system.

Did anybody ever managed to get to talk to a real person from paypal ?
As they just seem to have closed any way to get in direct contact with them.

Is there any place that is building up evidence against paypal so I can send my story to them ?

[Lordstar]

dont get me started on the shit that is paypal.

[Strider77]

yeah paypal protection is garbage... I hate them and don't use them anymore when possible.

[Lordstar]

I would recommend to anyone whos buying or selling to just Read the rules. Becuase theres a lot of stuff which will just trip you up. Also buy on credit card because you can claim back though your card you will get the cash back rather than dealing with PP.

Ive been fucked over a few times this year buying and selling. I am a lot wiser for the experience but would rather of not had to go though it lol.

[benstylus]

Ever used the paypal buyers protection ?

When you get send illegal goods when the auction states them as the full product and you use paypal buyers protection you get stuck in this automated system in where paypal just tells you to send the goods back to the seller and they also note that they can't guarantee that you will get your money back.

Yes, paypal sucks, but you also probably committed the cardinal sin of buying on ebay... and that is **NEVER** BUY WITHOUT PICTURES (Stock pictures don't count).

PS - Who is the seller so I can avoid them?

[honorless]

Also buy on credit card because you can claim back though your card you will get the cash back rather than dealing with PP.

This.
Really hate how they make you jump through more and more hoops to pay via CC, too. They've even switched the the cancel and confirm buttons on the "Are you sure you want to pay with CC?" page. (cancel is bright orange and on the left, to match the rest of their "OK" buttons; confirm is smaller and grayed out.)

Won't fool anyone who looks twice, but still unbelieveably shady.

Is there any place that is building up evidence against paypal so I can send my story to them ?

http://paypalsucks.com is the one I'm most familiar with...but there are many more.

[Lordstar]

both paypal and ebay are way to big for there boots. A lot of sellers are put off by there ever increasing % that they take and a lot more buyers are sick of scammers and people selling counterfeit goods and having little or no defense.

All it would take is another company with a clever marketing scheme and a fair system to come in and clean up.

I refuse to use my old paypal account and my personal biz will be able to take credit cards either via secure internet transaction or over the phone. From now on people will just have to take cheques off of me or on the rare occasion I will pay via paypal (until something else presents itself) for international users. The vast majority of people ive delt with on forums and ebay have been really cool. Ive had refunds with little or no evidence that the package has turned up and ive also had my P&P paid for for faulty goods sent out. but this last twelve months has been just one scamer/dick/thief after another. Peer to peer trading needs a wake up call and if paypal/ebay does not do it some one else will eventualy.

[system11]

Paypal are borderline scammers. I recently (well - sort of) bought a replacement pinball machine ramp. The seller informed me a few days later that the postage was twice the quote, and offered a refund. So far so good. I chased it up, and he said someone had issued a false claim against him so his account was locked. This situation never improved. I tried to raise a Paypal dispute, but because his account was already locked he couldn't respond to it - so Paypal WOULDN'T LET ME DISPUTE IT.

Their protection for buyers and sellers is non existant, the only protection you really have as a buyer is called a chargeback, which most banks are happy to do free of charge, as long as you send them supporting documentation.

I got mine reversed a few days ago...

[Lordstar]

Paypal are borderline scammers. you really have as a buyer is called a chargeback, which most banks are happy to do free of charge, as long as you send them supporting documentation.
I got mine reversed a few days ago...

Excellent stuff! It really is fucking disgraceful how they operate as a company. I just cant believe how much they get away with.

[Michaelm]

PS - Who is the seller so I can avoid them?

Well there was a picture but not of the tiny letters stating you need an extra license to use it.

The name is :
l.y

[Shion]

PayPal "scammed" me out of 600$. There is nothing I can do about this either. Sadly, I'm still forced to use their "service" even today, because of their monopoly.

[Lordstar]

are there any services which let you use a credit card to buy things off people who do not have a dedicated credit card taking facility or machine? If there is i would use it for sure.

[GaijinPunch]

What I don't understand in this day and age is why the fuck banks in America do not make wire charges cheaper and more accessible. As fucked up as Japan's bank system is (and believe me, it's fucked) they did one thing right: give the user almost total control over their account from an ATM. The result is people standing at ATMs for 15-20 minutes on end (and they all seem to do it on the same day) but auctions were always a piece of cake.

They're generally a flat fee of 150-300 yen (depending on where you're sending to) and you can do them online or from an ATM. The sender pays the fee, not the receiver. There's no percentage either, and it's business old school style: you give someone the money, if they run off with it, you are indeed fucked.

Every has a computer, and most big banks have an amazingly robust website. Why they don't get the computer to do all the work, knock the fee down to $2-$3 for a simple wire and simply pull the rug out from Paypal's well anchored feet is beyond me.

Don't get me started on checks... aka the downfall of man.

[Battlesmurf]

http://paypalsucks.com is the one I'm most familiar with...but there are many more.

Lol- I was just going to post that. But yeah- I only use Paypal on really RARE occasions-(I have to borrow accounts). I think it's the devil- I lost around $400- but hey- I recovered 5x from the sellers account! (bought a bunch of DVDs from a seller who never shipped on eBay). I followed the directions- do a charge back from the bank- so it left my account negative $34x- meaning I'd have to PAY paypal that money to use the account again. Fuck that- I never got my items at all- at least my credit card company covers my ass : )


They have a knack for handling all of the finance issues and taking those stupid charges like nobody's business- but when shit hits the fan they step aside completely.

[SAM]

They're generally a flat fee of 150-300 yen (depending on where you're sending to) and you can do them online or from an ATM. The sender pays the fee, not the receiver. There's no percentage either, and it's business old school style: you give someone the money, if they run off with it, you are indeed fucked.

Do the receiver a/c have to be at the same bank?

On my island, we could do wire transfer FREE of charge online or at ATM between a/c of the same bank.

Every has a computer, and most big banks have an amazingly robust website. Why they don't get the computer to do all the work, knock the fee down to $2-$3 for a simple wire and simply pull the rug out from Paypal's well anchored feet is beyond me.

But that still don't allow you to pay via your Credit Card, and have the protection of Credit Card charge back.

On my island, if you want to transfer money to a/c in another bank you have to pre-registered that a/c, and there is a flat fee of around $5 each time.

At the end if you want to get your auction payment paid via wire transfer, the best way is to open an a/c in the most populer bank of the island.

If wire transfer is that common and easy to use, I would just open bank a/c around the world, and have buyers wire transfer the payment into my bank a/c of his country. I would than TT the money back to my island free of charge.

[GaijinPunch]

Do the receiver a/c have to be at the same bank?
On my island, we could do wire transfer FREE of charge online or at ATM between a/c of the same bank.

No, but between the same bank is usually discounted. The problem is, there's about a million different kinds of banks in Japan. They're in all sorts of tiers. I've always thought I've heard them all, then I buy something from someone that's a member of "Bank 787"... no shit, that's the name.

But that still don't allow you to pay via your Credit Card, and have the protection of Credit Card charge back.

It allows you to send money cheaply, and do business the way business is done across the world. It's still better than straight Paypal, since as pointed out in this thread, there's no such thing as protection.

On my island, if you want to transfer money to a/c in another bank you have to pre-registered that a/c, and there is a flat fee of around $5 each time.

This was the standard in Japan, but since YJ got so big, certain net banks have opened, making it easier. No preregistration required.

If wire transfer is that common and easy to use, I would just open bank a/c around the world, and have buyers wire transfer the payment into my bank a/c of his country. I would than TT the money back to my island free of charge.

Many countries will not let you open up a bank account unless you have some type of presence being there.... America being the main one. And as an American, most places don't want to give you an account as a non-resident b/c they know what assholes the IRS are.

[SAM]

Oh, I see. So inter banks wire transfer within Japan is now become a common method for collecting online sale payment.

Many countries will not let you open up a bank account unless you have some type of presence being there.... America being the main one. And as an American, most places don't want to give you an account as a non-resident b/c they know what assholes the IRS are.

I did so how convince my bank to open an a/c for me at one of their US branch easily...

Not until friends like you telling me how hard this is, then I finally realized how great an acheivement this is.

Ever since I had opened this a/c, I am not forced to exchange the USD into my island's currency at PayPal's bad TT rate when I transfer money between PayPal and my bank a/c.

I could now wired the money from PayPal to my a/c at the US branch, and then TT it back to my a/c at my island's branch free of charge. This service alone has already save me a few hundreds dollars this year.

[GaijinPunch]

Oh, I see. So inter banks wire transfer within Japan is now become a common method for collecting online sale payment.

Depends on your definition of "is now". If by that you mean "since the invention of the ATM" then, yes, that's correct. Many small online businesses will charge the customer 5% to use a credit card, which means most people use back xfer. Anytime I buy from GFront or Mak it's bank xfer.

I did so how convince my bank to open an a/c for me at one of their US branch easily...

Not until friends like you telling me how hard this is, then I finally realized how great an acheivement this is.

It sucks. And as a foreigner with no US Tax payer identification you have basically legal recourse of the government decides to freeze your assets. They are trigger happy with this post 9/11.

The only other country I can speak for 100% certainty is Japan. You cannot get a bank account without a foreign registration card.

Ever since I had opened this a/c, I am not forced to exchange the USD into my island's currency at PayPal's bad TT rate when I transfer money between PayPal and my bank a/c.

Ah, yeah, I gotcha. Another "fuck you" from Paypal.

[Lordstar]

Ebay just sent me this

eBay is committed to the fight against counterfeit products because:

* Trust in our site is undermined by the presence of counterfeits
* It's illegal
* Buying a counterfeit is a bad consumer experience
* Honest sellers face lower average selling prices

At eBay, we're constantly looking at better ways to prevent counterfeit sellers from trading on our site, including:

* Proactively removing blatant counterfeits
* Removing items reported to us as counterfeit by over 18,000 brand owners
* Removing counterfeit sellers from the site
* Working closely with Law Enforcement to prosecute offenders
* Enforcing selling limits on items favoured by counterfeiters
* Restricting seller activity in certain categories
* Providing free tools for Right Owners to efficiently identify and report items

Key Stats:

* Counterfeits are a global challenge, with some estimates claiming they account for over seven per cent of world trade
* In 2007, 2.2 million potentially counterfeit listings were removed across all eBay sites
* We also eBay suspended approximately 50,000 sellers and blocked 40,000 previously suspended sellers from coming back
* Virtually 100% of the reported listings judged to be counterfeit are removed, 95% of them before the listing ends, 90% within 12 hours, and the majority of them within 4 hours
* eBay spends over £10 million annually on maintaining a safe site and has over 2,000 employees around the world to help with the fight against counterfeits
* In 2007, we trained 7,000 law enforcement officials and assisted in over 66,000 investigations and in the arrest or conviction of over 500 individuals

just essentialy spouting a lot of numbers and figures. Does not make me feel safe at all

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, Lordstar, if you were a Fortune 500 company with a brand licensing program, or maybe a seller of such goods, you'd probably feel decent(er) about it.

As far as we're concerned, eBay thinks we're scammers or something. Witness game prototypes/loaner carts and game copier auctions getting pulled. Hooray!

[D]

paypal sucks? well, don't use it then. There is not 1 example of needing paypal because there is nothing else you can do. I dare you. And they donlt have a monopoly, there are lots of alternatives. paypal is just another product that has grown masively.
I once bought a dvd and never received it. I got my money back through paypal and even talked to someone at paypal to ask what I should do and how everything worked. The charges are ridiculous. I am not sticking up for paypal, because I do beleive some of you got scammed. I still have good relations with them.

The banking world still has alot to improve on, but in Europe us Europeans can transfer money free of charge through all of Europe through bank transfers. They have to be
"straight through processing" transfers, just consult your bank about it.
And here in the netherlands we have acceptgiro's which are kind of like bills, so you can just buy a game (or god forbid a book) and receive it and pay the bill later in the month.

[GaijinPunch]

There is not 1 example of needing paypal because there is nothing else you can do.

You've clearly never been on the selling side.

[Lordstar]

Right now i need paypal becuase anyone outside the UK it becomes really a big chore just to get there fun bucks in to my account. I will have a credit card machine soon you can all send me your credit card details if you want lol.

[Ed Oscuro]

There is not 1 example of needing paypal because there is nothing else you can do.

You've clearly never been on the selling side.

[Super Laydock]

necessary evil is the phrase that comes to mind.

having no other internationally accepted "standard"" method of payment helps them a lot........

[Ed Oscuro]

having no other internationally accepted "standard"" method of payment helps them a lot........

That's because PayPal sells you funny money. When you put money into PayPal your real money goes bye-bye.

[SAM]

necessary evil is the phrase that comes to mind.

having no other internationally accepted "standard"" method of payment helps them a lot........

Yes, there is an international accepted standard for oversea payment service, all banks got this service. It called TT, it's flat rate, you need to know the recipent's bank's name, address, a/c# and a/c holder's name, to make the money transfer. You could choose to have the recipent pay the fee.

The problem is the flat rate is around USD 30 each time. In fact, I found it cheaper to send cash via EMS to the seller. And this is how I pay for my PCBs I bought at Yahoo Auctions JP.

[Lordstar]

Pay pal is quick and convient, I give them that much. But all this you sawp bank detials i swap bank details then this person does that and you sign this malarky is a whole lot of bullshit that needs to be streamlined to a few clicks (a la paypal) after all time is money.

[Observer]

The problem is the flat rate is around USD 30 each time. In fact, I found it cheaper to send cash via EMS to the seller. And this is how I pay for my PCBs I bought at Yahoo Auctions JP.

You know, this is what I usually do... The only standard I know is that pretty much everyone accepts USD (that gives some space for the people who actually don't accept it as there are always exceptions). In all the transactions I did so far with this method, the money always arrived quickly and safely.

Seeing that sometimes you can get rammed with $100 or more "fees", "charges", taxes of the tax in the taxi and such, paying the EMS is just less annoying altogether. And you have the certainty that the guy got the exact amount of money without stupid taxes or any other issues.

I used PayPal twice and certainly didn't feel like using it anymore. Of course, this is from a buyer's point of view.

As GaijinPunch stated, the seller's side is a different story.

[dave4shmups]

I wish that the Atariage store didn't use Paypal, but they've never burned me. I'm not thrilled with Paypal either, but there aren't a whole lot of other options out there, or at least there doesn't seem to be.