the zone

fl0w · Post by **fl0w** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:40 am

Hello,

I haven't read this forum for a long time so please forgive me if the following links have already been posted.

The first one is about a baseball(?) player who has learnt how to chance his perception of time:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/bei ... -time.html

Another article in Nature (EDIT: oops, for Nature subscribers only):
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v6/n1 ... n1764.html

And today I've found this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RjlpamhrId8

Enjoy!

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:08 pm

"Zen in the art of archery" describes this very well. It was one of the first times that a westerner got introduced to the practices of Zen and wrote a book about it (it´s from somewhere in the 1950s by a german professor).

When you hear how top shmup players seem to reap high scores seeming totally calm and emotionless, this might base on the tradition of Zen. In a nutshell, it´s about the will to NOT force things, but "let them happen". I´m still a bit of a newcomer to these Zen-things, but I find them eye-opening and you can test this attitude on almost any activity, and surely enough on shmups.

That´s also why I think that this genre is something very special - you don´t hear people getting "into the zone" while press X in Final Fantasy for 300 times. Shmups can be a very rigid test of endurance and self-control, unlike these "interactive movies" that people call "games" these days. In a way, manic shmups are a very focussed, concentrated, and *pure* genre.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:17 pm

You know frederikjurk, there are tons of other genres of games that require concentration and skill besides shmups in which this kind of zen or time sensation stuff could be useful if they were true (FPS, Fighters, RTS...).

Games that don't focus on skills or concentration are still games in their own right. Games aren't limited to being tests of skill. They can be some form of art.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:19 pm

Sewer Shark, for instance.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:21 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:That´s also why I think that this genre is something very special - you don´t hear people getting "into the zone" while press X in Final Fantasy for 300 times. Shmups can be a very rigid test of endurance and self-control, unlike these "interactive movies" that people call "games" these days. In a way, manic shmups are a very focussed, concentrated, and *pure* genre.

Yes, everyone knows RPGs are movies with a broken pause button. Don't shit on every other game genre out there because of that

it290 · Post by **it290** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:34 pm

I found it interesting that the article states caffeine speeds up one's perception of time. I haven't necessarily found that to be the case in my experience, since caffeine = some degree of nervousness = time passes slower. I also thought that central nervous system stimulants generally increased reaction time: they do give them to fighter pilots, after all.

Anyway, maybe I should lay off the caffeine and see if my skills improve, heh.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:44 pm

it's true that caffeine makes time pass faster but if you aren't taking it daily you speed up to match

same with cannabis, you slow down to match the slowed time

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:26 pm

I do agree that zen is the key. I notice that I do my best when I don't feel the urge to win, It's very tricky not to have this slip into pure absent minded lazyness as it usually does. i guess I don't have any tips, it's not like you can try to keep yourself on a plain raised above lazyness and nervousness. Even the effort to do so can do little but ruin any such chances.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:44 pm

Kingbuzzo wrote:I do agree that zen is the key. I notice that I do my best when I don't feel the urge to win, It's very tricky not to have this slip into pure absent minded lazyness as it usually does. i guess I don't have any tips, it's not like you can try to keep yourself on a plain raised above lazyness and nervousness. Even the effort to do so can do little but ruin any such chances.

That´s exactly what I meant.

Udderdude wrote:
FrederikJurk wrote:That´s also why I think that this genre is something very special - you don´t hear people getting "into the zone" while press X in Final Fantasy for 300 times. Shmups can be a very rigid test of endurance and self-control, unlike these "interactive movies" that people call "games" these days. In a way, manic shmups are a very focussed, concentrated, and *pure* genre.
Yes, everyone knows RPGs are movies with a broken pause button. Don't shit on every other game genre out there because of that

I don´t shit on EVERY OTHER genre. Tetris, Picross, Counterstrike or Ridge Racer are examples of very tight, focussed games, that don´t try to be anything ELSE than videogames.

Besides, you don´t even role-play in RPGs anyways, so even though you were sarcastic, RPGs are indeed movies with broken pause buttons for the most part. Games like Zelda don´t pretend to be anything else than they actually are, so they are called called "Action Adventure". I´m not saying that RPGs are not a viable form of entertainment, they just don´t as GAMES for me.

But, you know, whatever

Mitsuho · Post by **Mitsuho** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:10 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
Whoah, linky code doesn't like the parenthesis, you gotta copy paste the whole thing!

Lol, I can totally relate. I was playing Aegis Wing last night and my team and I all got wiped out. We played so bad for the next 5 minutes until someone made a joke over the headset and got us all thinking about now not then.

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:13 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:Games that don't focus on skills or concentration are still games in their own right. Games aren't limited to being tests of skill. They can be some form of art.

Right, and food doesn't have to taste good. It can be some form of art.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:21 pm

zinger wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:Games that don't focus on skills or concentration are still games in their own right. Games aren't limited to being tests of skill. They can be some form of art.
Right, and food doesn't have to taste good. It can be some form of art.

That's merely an easy and deeply incorrect comparison.

Aquas · Post by **Aquas** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:33 pm

Kingbuzzo wrote:I do agree that zen is the key. I notice that I do my best when I don't feel the urge to win, It's very tricky not to have this slip into pure absent minded lazyness as it usually does. i guess I don't have any tips, it's not like you can try to keep yourself on a plain raised above lazyness and nervousness. Even the effort to do so can do little but ruin any such chances.

Beware of zen calmness transforming into zen cockiness. Sometimes I'll relax through parts of a shoot'em'up that I know are simple and then fuck it up by thinking there's no chance I'll die.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:36 pm

The Ghost always comes back for more!

HardcoreOtaku · Post by **HardcoreOtaku** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:37 pm

fl0w wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/bei ... -time.html

Cheers, interesting read

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:47 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:That´s also why I think that this genre is something very special - you don´t hear people getting "into the zone" while press X in Final Fantasy for 300 times. Shmups can be a very rigid test of endurance and self-control, unlike these "interactive movies" that people call "games" these days. In a way, manic shmups are a very focussed, concentrated, and *pure* genre.

Here's something that will throw that for a loop. I get in the zone while playing board games. Depending on the game, I can lose track of time and reach a heightened sense of awareness. It's more mathematical (for instance: based on trends, I'm capable of predicting series of numbers that I never would be able to otherwise). However, it's a still a "zone". Any act of intense concentration can do that.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:48 pm

The zone.

You gotta be in the zone.

Or you can't play Ridge Racer.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:49 pm

Aquas wrote:
Kingbuzzo wrote:I do agree that zen is the key. I notice that I do my best when I don't feel the urge to win, It's very tricky not to have this slip into pure absent minded lazyness as it usually does. i guess I don't have any tips, it's not like you can try to keep yourself on a plain raised above lazyness and nervousness. Even the effort to do so can do little but ruin any such chances.
Beware of zen calmness transforming into zen cockiness. Sometimes I'll relax through parts of a shoot'em'up that I know are simple and then fuck it up by thinking there's no chance I'll die.

That's what happens to me ALL the time. I have to get nervous or try hard to focus to be sure I do my best. Otherwise I fuck up in the easiest places.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:20 am

FrederikJurk, you rag on RPGs and then praise Zelda?

That genre is the worst offender when it comes to unskippable cutscenes and slow text, and being the opposite of "very tight, focused games."

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:19 am

Enhasa wrote:FrederikJurk, you rag on RPGs and then praise Zelda? That genre is the worst offender when it comes to unskippable cutscenes and slow text, and being the opposite of "very tight, focused games."

Outside of that, it's not bad. Enhasa is right though. Some of the cutscenes sometimes last longer than FFX (10) ones. That is, if you don't turn off the TV, macro the A button, and walk away.

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:50 pm

Post by **spadgy** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:44 am

Gleaming the Cube is what skateboarders called the zone when wearing neon knee pads was still cool.

I certainly agree that when you play not to win it's easier to drift into a mild zone and do better. That certainly happened to me in a recent round of the Macaw Shooting Tournament. Playing a game I'd never touched before I wasn't expecting to do well and thus not putting to much effort in - got my highest score. Then, with more time a dedication to getting 'better' I've started to screw up far more runs and play a tad worse...

Thanks for all the links - great reading.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:18 pm

If I wasn't in a country where I'd risk prison and deportation for trying it, I'd like to try out a bit of Ketsui while stoned.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:18 pm

Twiddle wrote:it's true that caffeine makes time pass faster but if you aren't taking it daily you speed up to match

same with cannabis, you slow down to match the slowed time

Ha, so true. Too bad the bullets in Gunbird 2 don't slow down as well when you smoke pot!

Post by **spadgy** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:02 pm

henry dark wrote:If I wasn't in a country where I'd risk prison and deportation for trying it, I'd like to try out a bit of Ketsui while stoned.

i've always wondered about if that particular past time makes you play better, think you play better, or just be more forgiving about playing less well...

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:12 pm

Kingbuzzo wrote:

Proto-Spongmonkey in the wall there?

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:16 pm

Ed Oscuro wrote:
Kingbuzzo wrote:
Proto-Spongmonkey in the wall there?

that's just a picture of the guy when he'd been in the zone for too long

jp · Post by jp » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:21 pm

JoshF wrote:Sewer Shark, for instance.

Goddamn flaming yin-yangs.

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:34 am

a drug is usually different for every person I'd imagine. I don't do any, but all I remember from pot as a teenager was being very hungry, feeling tired, and thinking everything was awesome when it wasn't. So maybe you'd just think you're playing better.

go for a red bull!

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:36 am

spadgy wrote:
henry dark wrote:If I wasn't in a country where I'd risk prison and deportation for trying it, I'd like to try out a bit of Ketsui while stoned.
i've always wondered about if that particular past time makes you play better, think you play better, or just be more forgiving about playing less well...

I dunno about shmupping, but I can say for certain that I can't match beats for piss when I've had a puff or two... I'd imagine the same would apply.

shmups.system11.org

the zone

the zone

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