This is the info I posted on the GameDev forums, so pardon the format, they're anal about formatting... I have done a lot more planning that is listed here and I have a good idea of how I want everything to work. My programming knowledge is limited to making .bat files in QBasic...so...yeah.... I'm willing to do anything and everything I can, including learning as much programming as I can, but I would really like to get this thing moving and I don't know how fast I could learn everything necessary to complete the project.
Project name:
I Carry Forever (working title)
Brief description:
ICF is an innovative vertical scrolling shooter with a strong action RPG element. Player characters can equip various items that they find and also manage skill points as they progress to higher character levels. In ICF success is based on both reflexes and character planning.
Target aim:
Freeware unless it becomes something more.
Compensation:
No pay unless we actually make the game and some sort of money comes out of it. I'm certainly not opposed to making money and sharing said money if it gets made, but realistically this is probably a no.
Technology:
The game will be 2D and in the vein of Cave shooters and other arcade shooters. Hope to release for PC. Not looking for anything fancy, as long as it plays and looks decent.
Talent needed:
I'm really in need of a few programmers with either shooter experience, RPG experience, or both. If I find a programmer willing and able I have at least one artist that will work with us, more are certainly welcome to join. Ideally we would have someone very familiar with RPG making and one familiar with shooter making.
Team structure:
Currently the team consists of Ryan (me), who will be writing the story and characters, composing music, and generally designing the game. I've been working this game over in my head for a year or so now and really think it has a lot of potential. I'm willing to learn as much as I can manage to help out with whatever is necessary. Wisnu is an artist friend of mine that has recently agreed to do art for me if I can find others to help with the programming.
Website:
No website at the moment.
Contacts:
I can be contacted through email at: eleazartheband@gmail.com or through this forum. I look forward to hearing from you.
Previous Work by Team:
This is the teams' first project.
Additional Info:
Some of the innovative concepts of the game include a deep (for a scrolling shooter) item system, a balance of dodging and character building, and the skill system (again for a scrolling shooter). Also, the player will control hovercycles, allowing attacks to come from handguns, vehicle mounted weapons, and spells. The story is set in a futuristic society in which people have developed psychic abilities and corporations, biker gangs, and the authorities all struggle for power over the oppressed masses.
Feedback:
Any feedback, comments, etc... are welcome in this thread or through my email.
Discuss my unmade game and stuff...seems fun...
Discuss my unmade game and stuff...seems fun...
Last edited by Hulkcore on Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
No offense mate but 'back of the napkin' game designers are one a penny and quality programmers are worth their weight in gold. Consider that pretty much all active game programmers with any skill will already be making their own ideas a reality, so you'll have to cough up something damn amazing to pull these people off their own projects to work for you. The chances of you pulling a team together without an extremely well thought out and convinving game idea (no what you posted isn't it), and without you yourself being able to contribute significantly to the actual game creation process, are slim to none.
My advice to you is to go one of two ways:
1) Bite the bullet and learn how to use a game creation program for yourself and make the game yourself.
2) Lay your cards on the table. Create a complete and compelling design document which describes in detail every aspect of the game and how its all going to work and fit together. Provide concept art and example level design. In other words, do your best to convince people that your idea is special and worth working on, and isn't just some half baked wishy washy idea that's going to fall on its arse. At the moment there is absolutely no reason for anyone programmers to believe that your idea is significantly better than their own, so why would they abandon their own games to work on yours?
My advice to you is to go one of two ways:
1) Bite the bullet and learn how to use a game creation program for yourself and make the game yourself.
2) Lay your cards on the table. Create a complete and compelling design document which describes in detail every aspect of the game and how its all going to work and fit together. Provide concept art and example level design. In other words, do your best to convince people that your idea is special and worth working on, and isn't just some half baked wishy washy idea that's going to fall on its arse. At the moment there is absolutely no reason for anyone programmers to believe that your idea is significantly better than their own, so why would they abandon their own games to work on yours?
:: SHMUP-DEV :: - what it says on the tin
I agree with all of that, however I'm not asking anyone to abandon anything. I'm simply looking for some people to help. I'm completely willing to learn as much as I can to help this project, it will simply be a lot faster if I have people helping me. And, I have been working on a detailed game design document, however I'm not really trusting enough to lay my baby out there where anyone can see. In doing so there's nothing to stop a good programmer from simply making that game without me. Your points are well taken, and I know that I sound like some random guy. But I really am committed to this and have been working a considerable amount on the design document and the story.
Hehe, I knew this was coming, really. Believe me, I've been actively involved in the indy game dev scene for the past 6 years and I see this same argument at least once or twice a month. Guess what, non of their projects got off the ground either.Hulkcore wrote:And, I have been working on a detailed game design document, however I'm not really trusting enough to lay my baby out there where anyone can see. In doing so there's nothing to stop a good programmer from simply making that game without me.
Do you really expect people to trust you and your idea and commit to working for you without you revieling the entire game plan? Sorry mate but it's not going to happen. You have no name for yourself in the scene and no prior experience, why should people work for you based on trust? Even if you could convince people to do the above, it wouldn't be a good idea anyway since they'd code themselves into a corner eventualy unless you give them the full design spec to begin with.
So maybe instead you plan to give this design doc to coders who email you with interest but want to know the details before they commit? Then why did you bother keeping it secret in the first place if anyone can get it just by mailing you? All you've done is put an extra un-needed barrier between yourself and the coders you're trying to attract by making them make the first step and come to you rather than you going to them. This in itself is enough to turn away the majority of coders since like I say, they're likely already busy and thus far have nothing but a very minor curiosity in your idea but no reason to believe it worth pursuing.
In short, just post the god damn design doc
:: SHMUP-DEV :: - what it says on the tin
I just don't understand the secrecy around this. I think you're realizing it as well, which is good. You can gain a lot by posting it, the contribution (potentially) of others' ideas to make it better, etc. Unless you think it's so great an idea and that you're going to market and make money off of it, what are the benefits of keeping it to yourself? Ultimately, if you just want the game made and someone does that, that's good, right?
Anyway, good luck. Motoherp's comments are spot on.
Bill
Anyway, good luck. Motoherp's comments are spot on.
Bill
the2bears - the indie shmup blog
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Pixel_Outlaw
- Posts: 2636
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:27 am
The story is traditionally an afterthought in these kinds of games. The scoring and play method is everything.
Things that I don't consider innovative
-Ikaruga does not need a third polarity.
-Konami has invented the Gradius power up system already.
-Adding a new weapon to Geometry Wars does not make a new (or above average) game.
If you have something original by all means pursue it.
Things that I don't consider innovative
-Ikaruga does not need a third polarity.
-Konami has invented the Gradius power up system already.
-Adding a new weapon to Geometry Wars does not make a new (or above average) game.
If you have something original by all means pursue it.
Some of the best shmups don't actually end in a vowel.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
I suppose the main fear in secrecy is losing control of the project if someone else decides to make it with me. I'm completely aware that my lack of programming/art talents means I'm virtually useless....
To sum the game up as briefly as possible: (I do have more details worked out, but that would be a massive post)
The overall concept is something like this. Some of my favorite games of all time include Diablo 2, Esp Ra.De., and Raptor: Call of the Shadows. I want to make a game that combines elements of these three games (and others as well) into something completely unique. Traditionally shooters are based on dodging, weapon systems, and high scores while RPGs are based on character building, item finding/management, and story line. I want to balance these two genres by making a game that requires intelligent character building and good reflexes/dodging, utilizes a Diablo-esque item system, and to some degree has a more involved storyline than typical shooters.
I have 4 "elements" if you will, physical (bullets/melee), fire, pyschic, and energy. All physical attacks are instant hit but run through a hit/miss calculation based on character/enemy level and equipped items. Fire, Energy, and Psychic attacks are auto hit "spell" type attacks that do not run through the hit/miss check that physical attacks do. They can however have their damage reduced by items and skills. They can also be dodged.
Players control a character who rides a hovercycle. This allows certain weapons/skills to be equipped on the bike while others are used by the rider. These attacks can be used in conjunction or separately. My original thought is to have vehicle based weapons fire forward and rider based attacks to be aimed via a mouse with an onscreen cursor. I know that that this may not work well in practice, in which case an automatic aiming system would have to be implemented.
The overall goal is to have a shooter where you can play it through 30 different times using different combinations of skills and items and never play the same way twice. Some builds will rely solely on vehicle attacks, while others will mix this with melee (that's right I said melee), handgun, or psychic attacks. Others will not use vehicle attacks at all, but will focus entirely on some other form of attack.
I hope this eliminates the secrecy vibes, which were not entirely intended, but whatever. Basically what I'm attempting is quite far beyond a beginner level project for me to learn programming on, but I really have a desire to see this game get made. I think that the shooter genre could use something weighty and I hope that this might end up being that. I intend (read: hope and pray) that I can be a part of making a deep, serious game in this genre that I love.
By all means, pick away, give feedback, tell me I'm insane, etc... as long as you don't steal my idea.
To sum the game up as briefly as possible: (I do have more details worked out, but that would be a massive post)
The overall concept is something like this. Some of my favorite games of all time include Diablo 2, Esp Ra.De., and Raptor: Call of the Shadows. I want to make a game that combines elements of these three games (and others as well) into something completely unique. Traditionally shooters are based on dodging, weapon systems, and high scores while RPGs are based on character building, item finding/management, and story line. I want to balance these two genres by making a game that requires intelligent character building and good reflexes/dodging, utilizes a Diablo-esque item system, and to some degree has a more involved storyline than typical shooters.
I have 4 "elements" if you will, physical (bullets/melee), fire, pyschic, and energy. All physical attacks are instant hit but run through a hit/miss calculation based on character/enemy level and equipped items. Fire, Energy, and Psychic attacks are auto hit "spell" type attacks that do not run through the hit/miss check that physical attacks do. They can however have their damage reduced by items and skills. They can also be dodged.
Players control a character who rides a hovercycle. This allows certain weapons/skills to be equipped on the bike while others are used by the rider. These attacks can be used in conjunction or separately. My original thought is to have vehicle based weapons fire forward and rider based attacks to be aimed via a mouse with an onscreen cursor. I know that that this may not work well in practice, in which case an automatic aiming system would have to be implemented.
The overall goal is to have a shooter where you can play it through 30 different times using different combinations of skills and items and never play the same way twice. Some builds will rely solely on vehicle attacks, while others will mix this with melee (that's right I said melee), handgun, or psychic attacks. Others will not use vehicle attacks at all, but will focus entirely on some other form of attack.
I hope this eliminates the secrecy vibes, which were not entirely intended, but whatever. Basically what I'm attempting is quite far beyond a beginner level project for me to learn programming on, but I really have a desire to see this game get made. I think that the shooter genre could use something weighty and I hope that this might end up being that. I intend (read: hope and pray) that I can be a part of making a deep, serious game in this genre that I love.
By all means, pick away, give feedback, tell me I'm insane, etc... as long as you don't steal my idea.
wait are you making an rpg or are you making an action game because if you're making the latter it sure doesn't sound like it
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
Twiddle, it's both. I've found that most action RPG's are too focused on stat/character building and usually require no skill or action. Diablo (and now Hellgate: London) are examples of this. I hope to balance this game so that you must have both a strongly built character and a good set of dodging/reflex skills. How much you depend on either will be decided by how you choose to make your character. Possibilities exist for high damage, high speed yet fragile characters, slow heavy hitting "tank" characters, and anywhere in between. Obviously a faster/weaker build is going to require more traditional shooter skills. It's up to you.
shoe-sama: a hovercycle is a motorcycle that doesn't have wheels but hovers. they don't actually exist. The term is poor because cycle=wheels and they have none, but writing hovering motorcycle-like vehicle is too long and doesn't have the ring too it that hovercycle does. Example:
EDIT: Twiddle, when I say dodge, I don't mean the RPG style dodge as a calculation, but a real shmup style you have to dodge bullets way. Thought that might clear it up a little... Basically, as far as the elements go, imagine that in a typical manic shmup in which the enemies fire different colored bullets, that each color is an element which does a different type of damage and must be dealt with in your character building/items how that damage is reduced/absorbed/avoided should you fail to dodge. In this game, you WILL take damage no matter how good a dodger you are. It's a matter of how much and how you make your character to deal with that fact.
shoe-sama: a hovercycle is a motorcycle that doesn't have wheels but hovers. they don't actually exist. The term is poor because cycle=wheels and they have none, but writing hovering motorcycle-like vehicle is too long and doesn't have the ring too it that hovercycle does. Example:
EDIT: Twiddle, when I say dodge, I don't mean the RPG style dodge as a calculation, but a real shmup style you have to dodge bullets way. Thought that might clear it up a little... Basically, as far as the elements go, imagine that in a typical manic shmup in which the enemies fire different colored bullets, that each color is an element which does a different type of damage and must be dealt with in your character building/items how that damage is reduced/absorbed/avoided should you fail to dodge. In this game, you WILL take damage no matter how good a dodger you are. It's a matter of how much and how you make your character to deal with that fact.
well, you see, this is where the action part is thrown out the windowHulkcore wrote:In this game, you WILL take damage no matter how good a dodger you are.
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
Oh boy.
Taking this away from the game takes it faaaaaar away from the realm of shmups. This type of design discourages good level/bullet pattern design, since you can always just claim "well your character isn't levelled up enough and doesn't have the right items".
Also: Sigma Star Saga. It tried to do something very similar to what you have in mind and wasn't exactly received well. You can find some threads about it here.
If not before, this is where the plan starts to unravel. One of the great things about shmups is that success or the lack of it is all about the player's skill. All victories are thanks to the player being good at the game. All failuries are due to the player not being good enough. There is no "character" to take part of the glory or the blame. It's 100% about the player.Hulkcore wrote:In this game, you WILL take damage no matter how good a dodger you are. It's a matter of how much and how you make your character to deal with that fact.
Taking this away from the game takes it faaaaaar away from the realm of shmups. This type of design discourages good level/bullet pattern design, since you can always just claim "well your character isn't levelled up enough and doesn't have the right items".
Also: Sigma Star Saga. It tried to do something very similar to what you have in mind and wasn't exactly received well. You can find some threads about it here.
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.
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Hulkcore wrote:All physical attacks are instant hit but run through a hit/miss calculation based on character/enemy level and equipped items. Fire, Energy, and Psychic attacks are auto hit "spell" type attacks that do not run through the hit/miss check that physical attacks do. They can however have their damage reduced by items and skills. They can also be dodged.
A random thought i just had is that your hit box could vary in size depending on the gear you have, instead of a skill-less hit/miss calculation...
It sounds likes a pretty interesting idea. However, if you really want to find some good people to work with it on you, you're going to have to do a large part of the game yourself. This can mean the majority of the artwork, or coding. No programmer will want to make an entire game exactly as you want it (unless he gets payed).
Good luck though. But I advice you start learning how to code yourself
Good luck though. But I advice you start learning how to code yourself
Last edited by Shion on Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Unfortunately if you want other people to do the majority of the work it wont be long till you're overthrown if you plan the project to be a creative dictatorship. You will have to make compramises with the other people in the project since they will innevitably want to exert their influence and ideas on the game.Hulkcore wrote:I suppose the main fear in secrecy is losing control of the project if someone else decides to make it with me.
It still sounds to me like all you have is a vague idea in your head of what you want the game to be like. You need to create a proper design doc which describes in detail how exactly you're going to get from blank canvas to amazing finished game. Right now I wouldn't touch your idea with a barge pole as a coder since its full of holes and blank spots. I wouldn't even know where to start and what to prepare for and certainly not how exactly to code any of the specifics. To be honest at the moment it just sounds poorly thought out and as such there's a high risk that this idea simply wont work out in the end.Hulkcore wrote:The overall concept is something like this.......
As an excersise, imagine you've got a copy of your finished game in your hand. You put it in your machine, pick up your pad, and then.......
Describe what happens in a moment by moment account as you play the game from boot up to the end of the first level (or beginning of the second level if you intend there to be lots of character management stuff between levels).
:: SHMUP-DEV :: - what it says on the tin
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worstplayer
- Posts: 861
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It sounds a lot like Tyrian which was massive project no one here would be able to complete. Even the original team was unable to balance the game enough and a lot of stuff was broken.
Bad, bad, horrible idea. I don't have problem with lifebars but abusing it with unavoidable attacks is just stupid. It's like that acid level in Doom: If you have less than 20% health you might as well kill yourself because you CAN'T get through the green pool without dying (yes, i know, there's hidden hazmat suit behind window, this was just an example). One of things i like most about shmups is that you can have last life, no bombs and completely drained shield yet it's still possible to win.In this game, you WILL take damage no matter how good a dodger you are.
"A game isn't bad because you resent it. A game is bad because it's shitty."
Wow, tons of responses to the taking damage thing, haha!
Twiddle: What?! I could list dozens of action games in which you take damage, in all sorts of genres.
Ghegs: Have you played Diablo 2? I know, right it's not a shmup and all, but honestly in my years playing it, I've had plenty of victories that were 100% my own and plenty of defeats. Sure there are times where I've tried to bite off more than I could chew and had to level a character a bit more before I took on the next boss, but in the end it was still all about my use of what I had available to me that made or broke me. I don't see how making attacks that have to pass through a hit/miss check encourages poor level design. It's not all attacks, simply bullet based/melee attacks. The elemental attacks work exactly like a typical shmup, patterns and all. In this game, unless you go almost completely defensive with your character build, you will have to dodge well. That's part of the point, make an RPG where you have to have some skill apart from character building.
Unsane: There are 5 different hovercycle types with different hit boxes, if you want to use a more defensive, heavier vehicle your hitbox will be bigger, if you want to use a faster more fragile vehicle your hitbox will be smaller.
Shion: Thanks and I probably will. I suck at teaching myself stuff though, so we'll see how it goes.
Motorherp: I don't plan to be a complete Stalin! I hear ya, I realize that like film (my main area of study) game making is a collaborative art. As far as the much lauded design doc. Currently it all exists in a different format. Perhaps I jumped the gun in asking for help before it was all put together properly, though I am enjoying the feedback and the chance to discuss with you guys.
worstplayer: I get what you're saying. I've thrown around the idea of like health potions, but I don't think it works. Anyway, the unavoidable attacks would all be the physical/bullet type which have to run the hit/miss check and CAN be negated through character building (heavy ship/defensive skills/perhaps some life steal/damage reduction). Essentially, in any real life or anything remotely like it, a machine gun trained on your ship is going to hit you some of the time and miss you some of the time, it is not something you can dodge. However, if your ship has enough armor OR can destroy the enemy fast enough, the risk is marginal at best.
To all: Thanks for the comments, keep 'em coming. I knew, and somewhat planned, that my statement that you will take damage in this game would draw fire. I don't plan on making a game that anyone else would make, though I very much enjoy the discussion. I will write up Motorherp's run-through of the first level as soon as I have the chance, so perhaps he will give me some feedback on the actual game and not just my presentation of it....hehe.. Also, I'm surprised that you only picked up on the taking damage statement and not the use of a mouse, which I expected to draw as much, if not more, controversy. Anyway, please keep the comments coming. By the end of this, I'm sure you will all be making this game with me.
Twiddle: What?! I could list dozens of action games in which you take damage, in all sorts of genres.
Ghegs: Have you played Diablo 2? I know, right it's not a shmup and all, but honestly in my years playing it, I've had plenty of victories that were 100% my own and plenty of defeats. Sure there are times where I've tried to bite off more than I could chew and had to level a character a bit more before I took on the next boss, but in the end it was still all about my use of what I had available to me that made or broke me. I don't see how making attacks that have to pass through a hit/miss check encourages poor level design. It's not all attacks, simply bullet based/melee attacks. The elemental attacks work exactly like a typical shmup, patterns and all. In this game, unless you go almost completely defensive with your character build, you will have to dodge well. That's part of the point, make an RPG where you have to have some skill apart from character building.
Unsane: There are 5 different hovercycle types with different hit boxes, if you want to use a more defensive, heavier vehicle your hitbox will be bigger, if you want to use a faster more fragile vehicle your hitbox will be smaller.
Shion: Thanks and I probably will. I suck at teaching myself stuff though, so we'll see how it goes.
Motorherp: I don't plan to be a complete Stalin! I hear ya, I realize that like film (my main area of study) game making is a collaborative art. As far as the much lauded design doc. Currently it all exists in a different format. Perhaps I jumped the gun in asking for help before it was all put together properly, though I am enjoying the feedback and the chance to discuss with you guys.
worstplayer: I get what you're saying. I've thrown around the idea of like health potions, but I don't think it works. Anyway, the unavoidable attacks would all be the physical/bullet type which have to run the hit/miss check and CAN be negated through character building (heavy ship/defensive skills/perhaps some life steal/damage reduction). Essentially, in any real life or anything remotely like it, a machine gun trained on your ship is going to hit you some of the time and miss you some of the time, it is not something you can dodge. However, if your ship has enough armor OR can destroy the enemy fast enough, the risk is marginal at best.
To all: Thanks for the comments, keep 'em coming. I knew, and somewhat planned, that my statement that you will take damage in this game would draw fire. I don't plan on making a game that anyone else would make, though I very much enjoy the discussion. I will write up Motorherp's run-through of the first level as soon as I have the chance, so perhaps he will give me some feedback on the actual game and not just my presentation of it....hehe.. Also, I'm surprised that you only picked up on the taking damage statement and not the use of a mouse, which I expected to draw as much, if not more, controversy. Anyway, please keep the comments coming. By the end of this, I'm sure you will all be making this game with me.
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Pixel_Outlaw
- Posts: 2636
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You might look at the black sheep of shmups+rpg's Sigma Star for the GBA. Neither the RPG element nor shmup element was very solid.
The number 1 rule of shmups-ALWAYS leave the player a way out.
RPG's can deal all the damage they want to the player and just force them to level up.
These two core concepts are incompatible.
The number 1 rule of shmups-ALWAYS leave the player a way out.
RPG's can deal all the damage they want to the player and just force them to level up.
These two core concepts are incompatible.
Some of the best shmups don't actually end in a vowel.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
I'm certainly interested in checking out Sigma Star, though I have an abnormal dislike for hori shooters. For whatever reason I can't stand most of them. But I will check it out.Pixel_Outlaw wrote:You might look at the black sheep of shmups+rpg's Sigma Star for the GBA. Neither the RPG element nor shmup element was very solid.
The number 1 rule of shmups-ALWAYS leave the player a way out.
RPG's can deal all the damage they want to the player and just force them to level up.
These two core concepts are incompatible.
As far as those two concepts being incompatible, it makes me question how much time you have spent playing non turn based RPGs. What I mean is, there are parts of Diablo 2 (obviously a main influence on me...) where even the highest level, best geared/built characters will die if played by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. That is, it's not always a matter of leveling but of strategy and a balanced character build. As I've mentioned before, my game does in fact leave the player a way out. If the bullet type attacks are causing a huge problem for your character, perhaps you should try to take them out as fast as possible while dodging the elemental based attacks. Or, you could find/buy a more defensive vehicle, or perhaps invest some skill points in some more defensive skills. The goal of this game has always been to balance the two aspects, which I do not feel are mutally exclusive.
"Plenty of victories that were 100% my own" isn't the same as "all about the player's skill".Hulkcore wrote:Have you played Diablo 2? I know, right it's not a shmup and all, but honestly in my years playing it, I've had plenty of victories that were 100% my own and plenty of defeats.
And when you tried biting off more than you could chew it was because your character was weak, not because you, the player, wasn't capable of dealing with it.Sure there are times where I've tried to bite off more than I could chew and had to level a character a bit more before I took on the next boss, but in the end it was still all about my use of what I had available to me that made or broke me.
Because...I don't see how making attacks that have to pass through a hit/miss check encourages poor level design.
And this way out doesn't mean that the player should have saved his bombs for a certain section or have a specific build and items equipped or that the player should not have been hit before so he has enough life let, etc. etc.Pixel_Outlaw wrote:The number 1 rule of shmups-ALWAYS leave the player a way out.
If you were a programmer, I'd advice you to make a simple game demo where, with every bullet touched, there's a 50% that it will kill you. Play that for 10 minutes and it's quite likely you'd be annoyed with the uncertainty of it all.
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.
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Sounds like you're trying to run before you can walk. While I appreciate this is an idea you are passionate about, and you're trying to think outside the box, you may want to start simple and work up to this. (try learning with gamemaker, it's fairly easy to pick up)
By doing this you will teach yourself some programming skills and design skills to get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.
Once you have the basics of shmup making and rpg making you can ramp up the complexity of your projects and learn how to fuse them together.
I know this sounds like a long process but I think it's the only way you'll manage to make something this ambitious.
As per your ideas, here's my thoughts for what it's worth:
I like that you're looking to do something that hasn't been released before, but remember that a lot of the time, concepts aren't realised because they don't work well in practice, not because no-one has thought of it before.
Also the random hit/miss with basic attacks goes against the spirit of SHMUPS, and I can't really see it working.
Which isn't to say the idea doesn't have it's merits. Having different types of attack that have effects on different enemies/armours is a good idea and could add a lot of strategy and planning to the mix, just don't have any 'dice' working behind the scenes, as success or failure could be determined as much by luck than skill.
Also, keep the controls simple, having to think about aiming front firing weapons as well as using a mouse, not to mention the hassle of an inventory will seriously harm your game.
Basically, you need to decide if you're making a SHMUP with RPG elements or an RPG with SHMUP elements. Either way, you need to follow the rules of one genre whjile adapting ideas from the other, you can't just throw the two together without making a mess!
By doing this you will teach yourself some programming skills and design skills to get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.
Once you have the basics of shmup making and rpg making you can ramp up the complexity of your projects and learn how to fuse them together.
I know this sounds like a long process but I think it's the only way you'll manage to make something this ambitious.
As per your ideas, here's my thoughts for what it's worth:
I like that you're looking to do something that hasn't been released before, but remember that a lot of the time, concepts aren't realised because they don't work well in practice, not because no-one has thought of it before.
Also the random hit/miss with basic attacks goes against the spirit of SHMUPS, and I can't really see it working.
Which isn't to say the idea doesn't have it's merits. Having different types of attack that have effects on different enemies/armours is a good idea and could add a lot of strategy and planning to the mix, just don't have any 'dice' working behind the scenes, as success or failure could be determined as much by luck than skill.
Also, keep the controls simple, having to think about aiming front firing weapons as well as using a mouse, not to mention the hassle of an inventory will seriously harm your game.
Basically, you need to decide if you're making a SHMUP with RPG elements or an RPG with SHMUP elements. Either way, you need to follow the rules of one genre whjile adapting ideas from the other, you can't just throw the two together without making a mess!
For Motoherp's reading displeasure:
After clicking "New Game" on the menu, you view a short (and skip-able) scene compose of a few still images of your character, a young, shotgun-wielding biker, getting run out of a wasteland town by an angry mob. The final image is your character riding off on his hoverbike. From this image you are taken into the first "level" which begins with the player character (PC) riding on a barren desert road. As he rides, tooltips pop up to explain the HUD. On the left hand side of the playing area, from top to bottom are spaces for current mission objectives, the skill/attack mapped to the left mouse button, and a health meter. On the right hand side are spaces for character level/experience information, the skill/attack mapped to the right mouse button, and an energy meter. In the play area is the PC, whose movements are controlled by the WASD keys, and a cross hair that is controlled by the mouse. A tooltip also explains that the cross hair radius is determined by the type of weapon you have equipped on your rider. A few moments are given to get comfortable with the controls. After this, three other bikers flank the PC from the rear sides. There is a short, one sided conversation between the PC and one of the bikers, who explains that the PC has entered their gangs territory and must either turn around or pay them a toll. The PC remains silent and the bikers attack, each with a different type of attack. One uses a club to deal physical damage up close, another uses a pistol which deals physical damage from range, and the other uses a laser pistol which deals energy damage at range. After eliminating these three, an icon appears with a tooltip explaining that this is an item icon and driving over them picks up the item to be salvaged.* After picking up the item, the PC continues through the area fighting the rest of the biker gang until he leader of the gang appears. The leader is riding on the back of a large hover "tricycle" and deals both energy and fire damage. When the gang leader is about to die, his ride explodes, filling the screen with fire. The PC's bike crashes. Fade out.
Fade in, an image of a small group of shacks. A rugged, older man appears and thanks you for eliminating the gang that has been terrorizing the small village the PC is in. He explains that he was able to bandage you up and that he will fix your bike as often as needed free of charge. Also, he wants to know what items you picked up you want to keep and which you want to sell to him. This introduces the salvage screen, which displays the items found during the mission and allows you to sell, equip, or stash whichever items you want to as long as you have met the stat/lvl requirements.
The PC will have leveled by the end of the first mission. When the player exits the salvage screen they return to the image of the village and are allowed to enter either the old man's (let's call him Clarence for the sake of a name...) Clarence's home where you can spend the 1 skill point and 5 attribute points that you get for each character level you reach, Clarence's shop where you can buy and sell items, the local restaurant where you can talk to locals and find out information about the game and the story, or leave town which takes you to an area map of the current act and lets you return to areas you have already been through or continue on to the next area. Since you probably have some items you want to check out, and you have some skill and attribute points to spend, let's assume you head to Clarence's home to access the character screen.
The top half of the character screen is divided into three parts which are all part of your inventory. The left portion shows the items currently equipped by your character, the middle shows items in your saddlebags, and the right side show the items currently equipped on your bike. The bottom half of the character screen has 6 tabs along the left hand side which correspond to your character attributes and your skill tabs. The main part of this half of the character screen shows information about the skills or stats for the selected tab and buttons to add skill or stat points to them. The top tab is the character attributes, which opens up to reveal the maximum health and energy the character has, as well as the four character attributes, which are: Vitality, Psychic Force, Strength, and Dexterity.** Each of these affects different aspects of the character. Every time the plater levels they are given five attribute points to spend. The other five tabs relate to the five different skill trees. These are: Melee skills, Handgun skills, Psychic skills, Vehicle offensive skills, and vehicle defensive skills. Each skill tree has ten different skills which have different effects, strengths, and weaknesses.*** This is also where the player can reassign skills to the left or right mouse buttons and set up hotkeys for switching skills on the fly.
After the player has done everything that they want to in town, they choose to leave. When they click on the area of the image to leave town Clarence approaches them and asks if they are willing to help him out by riding to a nearby valley and finding 5 pieces of scrap metal big enough to repair the hole in his roof. After agreeing (no choice here, sorry) to the task, an image of a map is shown and the valley is revealed. The player clicks on the valley and beings the mission.
Once in the play "mode" again, the HUD reflects the changes made in the character screen, the cross hair now aligns itself to the range of the currently equipped weapon/skill, the mission information displays that you have found 0/5 pieces of scrap metal. Another biker gang seems to have taken up residence in the valley and wants to kill you. As you fight them you find the first 4 pieces of scrap metal. As you approach the end of the valley you are stopped by a girl on foot. There is some dialog with her, she is being hunted and must find a safe place for an amulet. She gives you the amulet and tells you to hide, she mentions the name Moloch. As she runs away a group of very shiny black, technologically advanced hover cars surround her and men get out and apprehend her. They drive away. The PC returns to town...
*Yes I have all the different item types written out, no I'm not going to type that all out and post it right now.
** Yes I have the attributes figured/written out, no I'm not going to type that all out and post it right now.
***Yes, I have all the skill trees, skills, etc... written/planned out, no I'm not going to type all that out and post it right now.
****Not mentioned is the differences between the 4 elements, some of which I have already mentioned. (didn't know where to put this in)
*****Also not mentioned is that there are 3 types of enemy factions (you only encounter 1 type in the first few missions), biker gang, police, and corporate. Each has different elements that it is strong/weak against and uses primarily in their attacks. (also didn't know where to put this in, yes I have them all written out, no I'm not typing it......)
******Finally, there are 3 acts with approx 6-7 different areas in each act. Act 1 is a wasteland, Act 2 is a group of bridges/islands connecting the wasteland to Act 3, which is a massive techno-metropolis. (I also didn't know where to put this, this is the main area that needs work as it is tied closely to the story which is not completed)
I hope, that this satisfies Motorherp a little. Perhaps he can now start critiquing the game design and not my posting. (that was mostly a joke). Also, about the whole damage thing... if you look closely, you will notice that only 1/4th of the attacks are physical and only 1/2 of these are ranged. That leaves approx 1/8 of the enemy attacks in the game as a ranged/physical attack that will have to pass through a character based hit/miss check in order for you to be damaged. I realize your concern about the whole IDEA of being hit instantly, but in reality it doesn't amount to a big part of the enemies attacks when compared with the melee enemies and the three dodge-able elements.
That was a massive post.
After clicking "New Game" on the menu, you view a short (and skip-able) scene compose of a few still images of your character, a young, shotgun-wielding biker, getting run out of a wasteland town by an angry mob. The final image is your character riding off on his hoverbike. From this image you are taken into the first "level" which begins with the player character (PC) riding on a barren desert road. As he rides, tooltips pop up to explain the HUD. On the left hand side of the playing area, from top to bottom are spaces for current mission objectives, the skill/attack mapped to the left mouse button, and a health meter. On the right hand side are spaces for character level/experience information, the skill/attack mapped to the right mouse button, and an energy meter. In the play area is the PC, whose movements are controlled by the WASD keys, and a cross hair that is controlled by the mouse. A tooltip also explains that the cross hair radius is determined by the type of weapon you have equipped on your rider. A few moments are given to get comfortable with the controls. After this, three other bikers flank the PC from the rear sides. There is a short, one sided conversation between the PC and one of the bikers, who explains that the PC has entered their gangs territory and must either turn around or pay them a toll. The PC remains silent and the bikers attack, each with a different type of attack. One uses a club to deal physical damage up close, another uses a pistol which deals physical damage from range, and the other uses a laser pistol which deals energy damage at range. After eliminating these three, an icon appears with a tooltip explaining that this is an item icon and driving over them picks up the item to be salvaged.* After picking up the item, the PC continues through the area fighting the rest of the biker gang until he leader of the gang appears. The leader is riding on the back of a large hover "tricycle" and deals both energy and fire damage. When the gang leader is about to die, his ride explodes, filling the screen with fire. The PC's bike crashes. Fade out.
Fade in, an image of a small group of shacks. A rugged, older man appears and thanks you for eliminating the gang that has been terrorizing the small village the PC is in. He explains that he was able to bandage you up and that he will fix your bike as often as needed free of charge. Also, he wants to know what items you picked up you want to keep and which you want to sell to him. This introduces the salvage screen, which displays the items found during the mission and allows you to sell, equip, or stash whichever items you want to as long as you have met the stat/lvl requirements.
The PC will have leveled by the end of the first mission. When the player exits the salvage screen they return to the image of the village and are allowed to enter either the old man's (let's call him Clarence for the sake of a name...) Clarence's home where you can spend the 1 skill point and 5 attribute points that you get for each character level you reach, Clarence's shop where you can buy and sell items, the local restaurant where you can talk to locals and find out information about the game and the story, or leave town which takes you to an area map of the current act and lets you return to areas you have already been through or continue on to the next area. Since you probably have some items you want to check out, and you have some skill and attribute points to spend, let's assume you head to Clarence's home to access the character screen.
The top half of the character screen is divided into three parts which are all part of your inventory. The left portion shows the items currently equipped by your character, the middle shows items in your saddlebags, and the right side show the items currently equipped on your bike. The bottom half of the character screen has 6 tabs along the left hand side which correspond to your character attributes and your skill tabs. The main part of this half of the character screen shows information about the skills or stats for the selected tab and buttons to add skill or stat points to them. The top tab is the character attributes, which opens up to reveal the maximum health and energy the character has, as well as the four character attributes, which are: Vitality, Psychic Force, Strength, and Dexterity.** Each of these affects different aspects of the character. Every time the plater levels they are given five attribute points to spend. The other five tabs relate to the five different skill trees. These are: Melee skills, Handgun skills, Psychic skills, Vehicle offensive skills, and vehicle defensive skills. Each skill tree has ten different skills which have different effects, strengths, and weaknesses.*** This is also where the player can reassign skills to the left or right mouse buttons and set up hotkeys for switching skills on the fly.
After the player has done everything that they want to in town, they choose to leave. When they click on the area of the image to leave town Clarence approaches them and asks if they are willing to help him out by riding to a nearby valley and finding 5 pieces of scrap metal big enough to repair the hole in his roof. After agreeing (no choice here, sorry) to the task, an image of a map is shown and the valley is revealed. The player clicks on the valley and beings the mission.
Once in the play "mode" again, the HUD reflects the changes made in the character screen, the cross hair now aligns itself to the range of the currently equipped weapon/skill, the mission information displays that you have found 0/5 pieces of scrap metal. Another biker gang seems to have taken up residence in the valley and wants to kill you. As you fight them you find the first 4 pieces of scrap metal. As you approach the end of the valley you are stopped by a girl on foot. There is some dialog with her, she is being hunted and must find a safe place for an amulet. She gives you the amulet and tells you to hide, she mentions the name Moloch. As she runs away a group of very shiny black, technologically advanced hover cars surround her and men get out and apprehend her. They drive away. The PC returns to town...
*Yes I have all the different item types written out, no I'm not going to type that all out and post it right now.
** Yes I have the attributes figured/written out, no I'm not going to type that all out and post it right now.
***Yes, I have all the skill trees, skills, etc... written/planned out, no I'm not going to type all that out and post it right now.
****Not mentioned is the differences between the 4 elements, some of which I have already mentioned. (didn't know where to put this in)
*****Also not mentioned is that there are 3 types of enemy factions (you only encounter 1 type in the first few missions), biker gang, police, and corporate. Each has different elements that it is strong/weak against and uses primarily in their attacks. (also didn't know where to put this in, yes I have them all written out, no I'm not typing it......)
******Finally, there are 3 acts with approx 6-7 different areas in each act. Act 1 is a wasteland, Act 2 is a group of bridges/islands connecting the wasteland to Act 3, which is a massive techno-metropolis. (I also didn't know where to put this, this is the main area that needs work as it is tied closely to the story which is not completed)
I hope, that this satisfies Motorherp a little. Perhaps he can now start critiquing the game design and not my posting. (that was mostly a joke). Also, about the whole damage thing... if you look closely, you will notice that only 1/4th of the attacks are physical and only 1/2 of these are ranged. That leaves approx 1/8 of the enemy attacks in the game as a ranged/physical attack that will have to pass through a character based hit/miss check in order for you to be damaged. I realize your concern about the whole IDEA of being hit instantly, but in reality it doesn't amount to a big part of the enemies attacks when compared with the melee enemies and the three dodge-able elements.
That was a massive post.
As for, the two responses above that big pile of text, I will respond but I have just posted way too much stuff, and I have a class soon. But I do have responses for the both of you. Also, I don't mean to be a defensive ass about everything. I understand that you guys are trying to help guide me and it is appreciated. Thanks and please do keep it up. I enjoy it immensely.
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Pixel_Outlaw
- Posts: 2636
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:27 am
I'm glad you are taking advice in stride. You have to realize that most of us play shmups at least daily. We have all had thoughts of how to add or subtract an idea from a design. If you posted this on an RPG fan site they would be more focused on preserving the RPG elements over shmup elements.
shmups are a very pure action genre. They are relatively simple.
RPG games are very complex in nature.
The problem is merging complexity+simplicity and yielding simplicity.
Another problem is a universally equal system for scoring. How can players share scores when every person is playing a different game?
Look at shmups that offer different characters, we often have to take the player's character into account when mentioning our scores. How could we account for comparing thousands of variables at once?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't make this but please make the game in such a way that we can compete easily. This is the essence of these games.
shmups are a very pure action genre. They are relatively simple.
RPG games are very complex in nature.
The problem is merging complexity+simplicity and yielding simplicity.
Another problem is a universally equal system for scoring. How can players share scores when every person is playing a different game?
Look at shmups that offer different characters, we often have to take the player's character into account when mentioning our scores. How could we account for comparing thousands of variables at once?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't make this but please make the game in such a way that we can compete easily. This is the essence of these games.
Some of the best shmups don't actually end in a vowel.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
No, this game is not Space Invaders.
I think you mis-understand. I'm not having a dig at your posting style or anything like that, I'm trying to help you by making you realise what you'll need to supply to coders in order to attract them to your project and allow them to make the game how you vision it. With regards to what you posted, I think you missed the point a bit. What coders will be interested in at this point is not story line or stats or anything like that, but the specifics of the game mechanics. Unfortunately this is what you've skipped over which makes me think you havn't really considered it yet. Coders aren't psychic, we cant reach into your brain and see the game the way you do. You need to provide exact step by step game mechanic details. Try to think from the point of view of the coder, someone who has no clue about your game yet but wants to make it from a blank canvas.
For example, you say you go on to fight the biker gang, but you dont describe how this fighting takes place. Is the enemy motion scripted or AI? How do they attack back? Can I use all my weapons at once or one at a time? Apparently I've got to pick things up at certain points, do I have to move directly over them? What happens if I miss them? Does the screen stop scrolling until they've been collected or infact does the screen even scroll at all?
See what I'm getting at, and that's just the beginning. They might seem like trivial decisions to you that can be changed on a whim, but the coder will have to make many important code design choices based on these things that cant always just be added and changed easily. This is why you need it all planned out and ready to give to the coders before you can expect anyone to start working for you, and any coder worth his salt will expect to be given it before they even touch your idea.
With regards to what I think of the ideas you've posted so far though, I'll add something that hasn't been said yet. Take a look for my post near the bottom here -> http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=15169. Be very careful with any accumulative reward mechanism along the lines of weapon shops etc.
For example, you say you go on to fight the biker gang, but you dont describe how this fighting takes place. Is the enemy motion scripted or AI? How do they attack back? Can I use all my weapons at once or one at a time? Apparently I've got to pick things up at certain points, do I have to move directly over them? What happens if I miss them? Does the screen stop scrolling until they've been collected or infact does the screen even scroll at all?
See what I'm getting at, and that's just the beginning. They might seem like trivial decisions to you that can be changed on a whim, but the coder will have to make many important code design choices based on these things that cant always just be added and changed easily. This is why you need it all planned out and ready to give to the coders before you can expect anyone to start working for you, and any coder worth his salt will expect to be given it before they even touch your idea.
With regards to what I think of the ideas you've posted so far though, I'll add something that hasn't been said yet. Take a look for my post near the bottom here -> http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=15169. Be very careful with any accumulative reward mechanism along the lines of weapon shops etc.
:: SHMUP-DEV :: - what it says on the tin
All right, here goes another round.
Ghegs: One of my last posts mentioned that physical-ranged attacks account for approx. 1/8 of the enemy attacks in the game, also, getting hit does not mean dieing, it means taking some damage. So instead of a game where all of bullets that hit you have a 50% chance to kill you, you have a game where you can (and should do your best) to dodge 7/8 of the attacks that come at you and, based on your character build, a 50%-5% chance that the other 1/8 will hit you. And I'm certainly flexible on this aspect, but this will never be a one hit kill shmup, you will have to deal with damage coming at you whether it's run through a hit/miss check or not.
monkeyman: I realize this is very ambitious, which is mostly why I'm asking for help and other people to work with me. The less I have to learn, then certainly the faster things will go. But I hear ya. I realize that all of my concepts may not work outside the PC monitor in my mind, but I would rather find out for myself in practice what works and what doesn't. As far as "dice" rolling and RPG's, I think what you're missing here is that an RPG is not defined by the presentation of the game. That is the character building elements of an RPG are a framework that I believe can be effectively put into any genre of game. Typically it has been seen in turn based strategy games (Squaresoft games), third person real time games (Diablo, others). It is not a genre in and of itself, it must be given a body on which to hang. I'm hanging it on shmups because I really do enjoy them.
Pixel_Outlaw: Some of my response to your statements is simply to refer to above, the RPG as framework not genre stuff. I do understand what you're saying about simplicity and complexity, but I wonder if shmups MUST be simple. Or maybe I don't even wonder, I don't think that they have to be. I mean, the same thing was said about FPS' until Half-Life came along and showed how deep a story could be told in an FPS. Now that genre is full of complex games, many of which don't seem complex as you play them. Also, who said anything about players having scores?!
Motorherp: Aha! You're finally just saying what you mean! I'm sure I haven't considered everything that a coder needs to know, but I can promise you there isn't a question you can ask me about this game that I do not know, unless it's the complete storyline because I haven't decided that quite yet. I'll start by answering your example questions...
If melee enemies are a possibility (I would like them, but they are certainly not a necessity) they would need to be scripted to move within melee distance of the PC and stay there swinging their weapons until they are dead or at least for a certain interval of time. Ranged enemies only need motion scripting.
They attack by shooting brightly colored (corresponding to their element) round, triangular, or other shaped dots commonly referred to as bullets or missiles. Some enemies shoot these out in preset patterns to be dodged, while others target the PC's current position and fire at that position in regular intervals, updating the new position as the player moves, making it somewhat more difficult to dodge at times. Other shoot machine gun or handgun type weapons that are not displayed by brightly colored, but would simply be indicated by a "tracer" effect showing that such and such enemy is attacking you. Whether or not the PC takes damage, and how much, is determined by a cumulative calculation based on Base Vehicle Armor, bonuses received by items and skills, character level, and enemy level. The same calculation applies to melee attacks, in which the enemy approaches the PC and swings a weapon at them.
You can equip one weapon on the rider and one to three weapons on the bike depending on the base bike type. Vehicle weapons always fire simultaneously with one button press. There are two attack buttons which can be mapped to any available skills for either vehicle or rider based attacks/skills. These two skills may be used simultaneously, though some skills have their own firing timers.
Item icons: When you kill an enemy, the game "rolls" to see whether or not that enemy will leave behind an item. If the game rolls that the enemy is to leave an item, the enemy will leave behind an icon representing the type (weapon/armor/etc) and quality (plain/magic/unique). In order to pick the item up, you must move directly over the icon. If you miss them, you miss out on whatever random item it was. These are similar to the medals picked up for points in games like DonPachi, Dangun Feveron, etc... though not nearly as copious in number. *also* items are equipped between missions, I really don't think that stopping to go to an inventory screen in the midst of a battle makes much sense...
Quest item icons: If you get a quest in which you have to collect a certain item or number of items, you will briefly see an icon representing that item. I say briefly because when these icons appear they will quickly track to your location and be picked up automatically. Some quest items will only (and always) be dropped by a specific boss or enemy. If you make it through the mission area and kill the required boss, you will never miss the items.
The screen does in fact scroll, though I think dramatically it would be interesting to have the PC move offscreen (by slowing/stopping the scrolling) for something like a biker gang to be shown giving chase or some other scripted event. This is of course not vital to gameplay though.
Any more, seriously tell me everything you would want to hear. I have it all, but I need direction. This was a wonderful start to test me, I'm ready for more. If you WERE coding this, if I was paying you a million dollars to make this for me (just as soon as I make a blockbuster film I'll let you know), what would YOU want to know from me. Fire away, or don't if you get bored with me.
In response to your final statement, I think that Raptor: Call of the Shadows' weapon shop system worked fine, although it did fall in the trap that Pixel_Outlaw mentions in that thread due to the shop always being stocked with everything and always having the best weapon, etc... You always end up just saving all your money for the deathray and then it's game over. RPG-style randomization of items means that there isn't always a "best" item though there can be better than what you currently have. Also, Raptor took care of the problem of money making by allowing you to replay earlier missions as many times as you felt. If you screwed up bad, you can always go back and make up some cash by replaying a mission you did decent on. I know it's not regarded as anything amazing, but I really like that game and it clearly has an influence on what I am making here.
Ghegs: One of my last posts mentioned that physical-ranged attacks account for approx. 1/8 of the enemy attacks in the game, also, getting hit does not mean dieing, it means taking some damage. So instead of a game where all of bullets that hit you have a 50% chance to kill you, you have a game where you can (and should do your best) to dodge 7/8 of the attacks that come at you and, based on your character build, a 50%-5% chance that the other 1/8 will hit you. And I'm certainly flexible on this aspect, but this will never be a one hit kill shmup, you will have to deal with damage coming at you whether it's run through a hit/miss check or not.
monkeyman: I realize this is very ambitious, which is mostly why I'm asking for help and other people to work with me. The less I have to learn, then certainly the faster things will go. But I hear ya. I realize that all of my concepts may not work outside the PC monitor in my mind, but I would rather find out for myself in practice what works and what doesn't. As far as "dice" rolling and RPG's, I think what you're missing here is that an RPG is not defined by the presentation of the game. That is the character building elements of an RPG are a framework that I believe can be effectively put into any genre of game. Typically it has been seen in turn based strategy games (Squaresoft games), third person real time games (Diablo, others). It is not a genre in and of itself, it must be given a body on which to hang. I'm hanging it on shmups because I really do enjoy them.
Pixel_Outlaw: Some of my response to your statements is simply to refer to above, the RPG as framework not genre stuff. I do understand what you're saying about simplicity and complexity, but I wonder if shmups MUST be simple. Or maybe I don't even wonder, I don't think that they have to be. I mean, the same thing was said about FPS' until Half-Life came along and showed how deep a story could be told in an FPS. Now that genre is full of complex games, many of which don't seem complex as you play them. Also, who said anything about players having scores?!
Motorherp: Aha! You're finally just saying what you mean! I'm sure I haven't considered everything that a coder needs to know, but I can promise you there isn't a question you can ask me about this game that I do not know, unless it's the complete storyline because I haven't decided that quite yet. I'll start by answering your example questions...
If melee enemies are a possibility (I would like them, but they are certainly not a necessity) they would need to be scripted to move within melee distance of the PC and stay there swinging their weapons until they are dead or at least for a certain interval of time. Ranged enemies only need motion scripting.
They attack by shooting brightly colored (corresponding to their element) round, triangular, or other shaped dots commonly referred to as bullets or missiles. Some enemies shoot these out in preset patterns to be dodged, while others target the PC's current position and fire at that position in regular intervals, updating the new position as the player moves, making it somewhat more difficult to dodge at times. Other shoot machine gun or handgun type weapons that are not displayed by brightly colored, but would simply be indicated by a "tracer" effect showing that such and such enemy is attacking you. Whether or not the PC takes damage, and how much, is determined by a cumulative calculation based on Base Vehicle Armor, bonuses received by items and skills, character level, and enemy level. The same calculation applies to melee attacks, in which the enemy approaches the PC and swings a weapon at them.
You can equip one weapon on the rider and one to three weapons on the bike depending on the base bike type. Vehicle weapons always fire simultaneously with one button press. There are two attack buttons which can be mapped to any available skills for either vehicle or rider based attacks/skills. These two skills may be used simultaneously, though some skills have their own firing timers.
Item icons: When you kill an enemy, the game "rolls" to see whether or not that enemy will leave behind an item. If the game rolls that the enemy is to leave an item, the enemy will leave behind an icon representing the type (weapon/armor/etc) and quality (plain/magic/unique). In order to pick the item up, you must move directly over the icon. If you miss them, you miss out on whatever random item it was. These are similar to the medals picked up for points in games like DonPachi, Dangun Feveron, etc... though not nearly as copious in number. *also* items are equipped between missions, I really don't think that stopping to go to an inventory screen in the midst of a battle makes much sense...
Quest item icons: If you get a quest in which you have to collect a certain item or number of items, you will briefly see an icon representing that item. I say briefly because when these icons appear they will quickly track to your location and be picked up automatically. Some quest items will only (and always) be dropped by a specific boss or enemy. If you make it through the mission area and kill the required boss, you will never miss the items.
The screen does in fact scroll, though I think dramatically it would be interesting to have the PC move offscreen (by slowing/stopping the scrolling) for something like a biker gang to be shown giving chase or some other scripted event. This is of course not vital to gameplay though.
Any more, seriously tell me everything you would want to hear. I have it all, but I need direction. This was a wonderful start to test me, I'm ready for more. If you WERE coding this, if I was paying you a million dollars to make this for me (just as soon as I make a blockbuster film I'll let you know), what would YOU want to know from me. Fire away, or don't if you get bored with me.
In response to your final statement, I think that Raptor: Call of the Shadows' weapon shop system worked fine, although it did fall in the trap that Pixel_Outlaw mentions in that thread due to the shop always being stocked with everything and always having the best weapon, etc... You always end up just saving all your money for the deathray and then it's game over. RPG-style randomization of items means that there isn't always a "best" item though there can be better than what you currently have. Also, Raptor took care of the problem of money making by allowing you to replay earlier missions as many times as you felt. If you screwed up bad, you can always go back and make up some cash by replaying a mission you did decent on. I know it's not regarded as anything amazing, but I really like that game and it clearly has an influence on what I am making here.
Yeah, I never think about stuff like that..sorry... In the future, I will format more aesthetically pleasing.unsane wrote:Hulkcore wrote:(wall of text)
Use quote tags.
In other news, I'm getting some books, learning C++, etc... yada yada yada. I'm still looking for help, would love to have anyone work on this with me, and would love to keep this thread going because I like the discussion.
In addition, I messed around with the 1945 clone Gamer Maker tutorial to test out my mouse/aiming thing. All I changed from their file was adding the mouse, so the design/graphics is not anything to write home about (especially the freehand cross hair that I drew...). Personally, I kinda like the mouse, it pretty much functions like I expected/planned. Feel free to let me know what you think of the mouse aiming. Controls are WASD for movements, left click shoots forward, right click shoots at cursor. You can shoot both at the same time and can hold down both, etc....
http://www.mediafire.com/?7uhyx0lfytt