Forcing Fake Hi-Res back to true Low-Res on a HDTV

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:51 am

Thought some might find this interesting, especially any resolution/video/monitor dorks like me.

Last year I got a HDTV and was AMAZED at what a difference it makes to this gen's visuals. However I was appalled at how it made old school gaming look like on it.... worse than a standard TV.

Long story short I discovered the XRGB that fixes all that by converting older resolutions to a resolution my TV understands. With this, it keeps the TV from having to do the scaling itself and making it ugly with filters and scaling ect. The XRGB can also add fake scanlines back in so it looks just like it did on a SDTV or arcade monitor.

Anyways... to the good stuff. Some folks may have noticed with new ports 2D games get fake Hi-Res instead of true Low-Res. Ibara and Mushi on PS2 are prime examples. They look worse, in my opinion with no scanlines due to the pixel art not being created with that resolution in mind.

Well I've found a device that will let me take that fake Hi-res signal and force it back to a true Low-Res signal. Then take that true Low-Res signal and feed it back to my HDTV with the XRGB to add back in those scanlines.

This may sound a bit confusing so here are some pictures to make it more clear.

SSF2X in fake Hi-Res

SSF2X forced back in true Low-Res

Vampire Savior in fake Hi-Res

Vampire Savior forced back in true Low-Res

and again once more....

Fake Hi-Res.....

True Low-Res

Now i can "fix" all those ports to console back to the way they were meant to be seen.

I know others have addressed this but i just wanted to show my 1st hand results for those that are sceptical of the results ect. Besides I think no one has pursuded this on a HDTV yet and as you can see it works.

I have thank Fudoh for enduring all my endless questions and introducing me to the emotia units....

For those interested here is the chain for PS2 ports:

PS3 (converts to 480p) > component to VGA transcoder > emotia > XRGB2+ > VGA to component transcoder > HDTV

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:41 am

I dread to think of the EM interference your setup must create. And the electricity bill.

Okay, at least you are able to get your games to work the way you want them to.

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:48 am

okay...now explain why I would want those ugly scanlines back? The picture looks better without those spaces. I mean, what is the benefit other than ub3r 1337 10wrez?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:53 am

So basically you're exposing a game to blurry upscaling three times instead of one time. Nice.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:04 am

Well I'm not getting any picture loss at all with this process. In fact it looks just like it originally did on a arcade cab. Alot of folks have complained about the lack of true low res ports on here. That's why alot have praised the job Arika did on their ports for ESPgaluda and Dodonpachi DOJ....

I think the games look better that way. The examples I gave are just what was handy at the moment and got the point across. I thought for pics taken with a dig camera close up they still looked sharp enough to show this process is not degrading the picture.

SSF2T and Vampire Savior don't look bad in fake hi-res to me, but other games do suffer more in my opionion and that's why i was interested in the process.

I'm am kinda suprised I got such a quick responce hating on true low-res. generally I see topics complaining on that issue.

So basically you're exposing a game to blurry upscaling three times instead of one time. Nice.

nope... the PS3 puts out a 480p signal then I convert it to VGA for the emotia to read and push into 240p, and then the XRGB fills in those blank "dummy" scanlines.

line doubling isn't blurry upscaling, that's why games look so good when put into a XRGB to a monitor. as long as the signal is fed threw proper cabling it won't lose quality with all the items in the chain having an amp to keep it strong.

bigbadboaz · Post by **bigbadboaz** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:19 am

Strider, I for one appreciate your posting this. I imagine at some point I would like to duplicate the process... I am a long way from having all that equipment, though.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:30 am

What I don't like about that first pic, is that it looks like gay porn.

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:45 am

I would like to see the effect from far away. If Strider likes his new found display mode and it makes him happy why not? The first is more clear while the second has sharper contrast.

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:52 am

Pretty ridiculous to go through all that trouble when you probably have a true low-res monitor lying around. Props for the dedication though.

D · Post by D » Wed May 30, 2007 6:26 am

Strider77, you have trully outdone yourself.
Thank you for educating us.
I guess some of us don't see the big picture. Those close ups are enough for me to realize that the end result (seeing the entire screen) is magnificant.
Everytime somebody does something trully great, people hate on it/don't understand.
Again, props. You don't take any crap, you want the best. I could've seen myself going this route (if I had some more cash lying around)
I'm envious.
All the haters need to quit hating.
It's something to be proud of.
I wonder if any lag is introduced though.
Strider77, it's time to make an all in one device just for this purpose.
Do you have more screenshots of the entire screen.
Perhaps you should give the shmembers some Ibara screenshots to calm them down.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:28 am

That was a great poem.

Inkvisitor · Post by **Inkvisitor** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:32 am

I give you an A for effort.

This HD era forces us to develop higher brainfunctions or something...

It's always nice to read posts that gives examples of "how to".

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:27 am

Strider77 wrote:Well I'm not getting any picture loss at all with this process. In fact it looks just like it originally did on a arcade cab. Alot of folks have complained about the lack of true low res ports on here. That's why alot have praised the job Arika did on their ports for ESPgaluda and Dodonpachi DOJ....

I think the games look better that way. The examples I gave are just what was handy at the moment and got the point across. I thought for pics taken with a dig camera close up they still looked sharp enough to show this process is not degrading the picture.

SSF2T and Vampire Savior don't look bad in fake hi-res to me, but other games do suffer more in my opionion and that's why i was interested in the process.

I'm am kinda suprised I got such a quick responce hating on true low-res. generally I see topics complaining on that issue.

So basically you're exposing a game to blurry upscaling three times instead of one time. Nice.
nope... the PS3 puts out a 480p signal then I convert it to VGA for the emotia to read and push into 240p, and then the XRGB fills in those blank "dummy" scanlines.

line doubling isn't blurry upscaling, that's why games look so good when put into a XRGB to a monitor. as long as the signal is fed threw proper cabling it won't lose quality with all the items in the chain having an amp to keep it strong.

I still don't quite understand why the uglier picture is somehow considered the preferred image other than personal preference. Not hating, its just that my eyes aren't lying to me. The Vampire Saviour pic looked pretty good just the way it was. Why not post up an example of a game that looks like crap in fake hi-res to better get your point across? Once again, not hating, i'm just trying to see what the big deal is. I don't understand how scanlines somehow= omg better picture.

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:39 am

I don't think pictures could really capture it, but fake hi-res = blurry mess.

D · Post by D » Wed May 30, 2007 9:50 am

Never_Scurred wrote:I still don't quite understand why the uglier picture is somehow considered the preferred image other than personal preference. Not hating, its just that my eyes aren't lying to me. The Vampire Saviour pic looked pretty good just the way it was. Why not post up an example of a game that looks like crap in fake hi-res to better get your point across? Once again, not hating, i'm just trying to see what the big deal is. I don't understand how scanlines somehow= omg better picture.

It's hard to explain. I guess you'd have to see at Strider77's house to witness or maybe he could make some comparison videos for non believers

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:51 am

While this allows you to get rid of the vertical blur, the problem is that there is also horizontal blurring (because the "fake" hi-res also multiplies the pixels horizontally, not just vertically), which of course remains when you re-introduce scanlines.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:28 pm

Never_Scurred wrote:okay...now explain why I would want those ugly scanlines back? The picture looks better without those spaces. I mean, what is the benefit other than ub3r 1337 10wrez?

Yeah, I think the "fake hi-res" shots look WAY better than the others. Granted, it's an effect, but I'd rather the graphics look clean. Maybe it's because I've been playing emus for 10 years minus scanlines, but I'd rather play the fake hi-res.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:33 pm

Yeah, but what if we HATE scanlines????

D · Post by D » Wed May 30, 2007 1:56 pm

Ceph wrote:While this allows you to get rid of the vertical blur, the problem is that there is also horizontal blurring (because the "fake" hi-res also multiplies the pixels horizontally, not just vertically), which of course remains when you re-introduce scanlines.

Good point, I thought I understood.
But now I have to re-evauluate everything again. Because the scanlines Strider77 puts on his hdtv are not scanlines, but actually rows of pixel who display black. So what Strider77 does is just blacken half of the screen/resolution/480p
So it's 480p with half of the image gone to make it look like a crt?
*confused*
fake scanlines, what's the point then?
It looks like crt, but it's the same upscaled blurry shit, only with half of screen gone/blackened.
I don't understand, PS3 has HDMI right? go with that.
PS2 has VGA (and component) go with that and then use the fake scanlines if you want, but your just losing 1/2 of the picture, which was stretched out in the first place! and blurry. If manufacterers used line doubling in games, then reviewers of magazines would call the games blocky and give it a low score.
What a mad world we live in.
I had such high expectations of Strider77's set up.
It seems I fooled myself

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:47 pm

Never_Scurred wrote:I still don't quite understand why the uglier picture is somehow considered the preferred image other than personal preference. Not hating, its just that my eyes aren't lying to me. The Vampire Saviour pic looked pretty good just the way it was. Why not post up an example of a game that looks like crap in fake hi-res to better get your point across? Once again, not hating, i'm just trying to see what the big deal is. I don't understand how scanlines somehow= omg better picture.

You need to see the two images in motion.

480i = Unstable and blurry picture, due to the image switching back and forth between to sets of horizontal lines.

240p = Very stable and crisp image and looks less pixelated.

The fact of the matter is, that low res 2D games were made for 240p, thus they look best in that mode.

Highres 2D games ( suc as Guilty Gear, Hokuto No Ken, etc) are made for 480p.

480i is just an "inbetweener" mode that only really came into use because you can transmit a realtively nice SDTV image with relatively low bandwidth. For videogames (and that includes 3D) it's basically just crap though.

Ceph wrote:While this allows you to get rid of the vertical blur, the problem is that there is also horizontal blurring (because the "fake" hi-res also multiplies the pixels horizontally, not just vertically), which of course remains when you re-introduce scanlines.

Yip, exactly.

People should just get two monitors/TVs, one 15kHz for all oldschool and arcade stuff, and one 31kHz for the slick 3D stuff, and be done with it.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:50 pm

Never_Scurred wrote: I still don't quite understand why the uglier picture is somehow considered the preferred image other than personal preference. Not hating, its just that my eyes aren't lying to me. The Vampire Saviour pic looked pretty good just the way it was. Why not post up an example of a game that looks like crap in fake hi-res to better get your point across? Once again, not hating, i'm just trying to see what the big deal is. I don't understand how scanlines somehow= omg better picture.

Although this has been discussed to death in the Ibara and Mushiemesama threads, I think whats confusing you are the static screenshots Strider77 chose to use in his examples. Non-interlaced lowres (240p) is prefered for scrolling shooter games compared to interlaced "fake high res" (480i). Trust me, there is a big difference in how the sprites look and move when large sections of the screen are moving at the same time. The crappines is only amplified if the screen is tated. Its hard to see this with static screenshots, but in Ibara, for example, you get a lot of sprite tearing and general blurrynes compared to the original 240p image of the PCB. I took some side-by-side screenshots of Ibara PS2 and PCB on a tated arcade monitor if you can search through that long ass thread again.

Given this, its hard to understand exactly why Strider77 thinks a 480p image from his PS3 is not good enough. Perhaps he is just wanting an authentic 240p look on his HDTV. I'd be curious if Ibara plays at 480p native on a PS3, and how that would look on a tated 31khz monitor.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:49 pm

I'm using an Emotia also, only on an SDTV. I'm glad I have it, but the results vary quite a bit. Mushihimesama and Ibara are improved quite a bit by it, and so are most of the games I've tried on the Capcom Classics and Taito Legends pack, but for some reason Street Fighter Alpha Anthology looks pretty terrible -- probably a combination of the game's scaling method (which feels a bit soft anyway) and the weird CPS2 resolution.

I will say, however, that MAME looks fantastic running through the Emotia, far better than it does with the component out on my video card. Neo Geo games look pretty much exactly the same as they do when running the MVS through component. It's very nice to have the H/V picture controls directly on the box as well. The only downside is that bright reds tend to suffer from some distortion/flickering, perhaps a flaw in the design of the unit. Strider, have you noticed that as well?

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:52 pm

That Air Force boy in the first pic is packin.

D · Post by D » Wed May 30, 2007 8:50 pm

shinsage wrote:That Air Force boy in the first pic is packin.

Jezus, will you guys stop discovering gayness. It's ruining my evening.

Again there seems to be alot of mixing different phenomena.
TWO things:
1 Interlacing
2 Upscaling
Both are bad, when combined they kill.
I will give examples:

1 First the Interlacing. We take a Dreamcast and the game: Ferrari F355.
This game's original res. = 640x480.
If you connect your dreamcast with a VGA BOX you will get a progressive signal if you connect it with anything else you'll get the interlaced mess, people endure who don't have vga inputs on their tv.

2 Upscaling is needed when the resolution of an arcade game, for instance Street Fighter III which uses the resolution of 384x224, does not match that of the Dreamcast console's 640X480. So upscaling occurs. When connected with a vga cable this is all that happens.

1 & 2 Street Fighter III, which is upscaled and connected through anything but a VGA cable. upscaling and interlacing.

Finally, not upscaling and no interlacing: F355 with a VGA cable = heaven

I didn't use this as reference, but it has some explanation (was posted before once)
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

So I still don't really know what these codes do for the Dreamcast version of SF TS

De-interlaced
After loading the GD-ROM keep pressing the Start button + L button until the Capcom logo appears on the screen.

Low-resolution/anti-aliasing
After loading the GD-ROM keep pressing the Start button + Y button until the Capcom logo appears on the screen.

Normal screen
After loading the GD-ROM keep pressing the Start button + X button until the Capcom logo appears on the screen.

Who actually knows, because I could take some guesses, but I'd like to know what is ectually happening. I know that the Dreamcast does not run in 384x224 if it could that would rock, but could probably damage some tv sets. But some of these capcom games do have an option to scale screensize. perhaps if you set it to low you could get the arcades original resolution. Then we could put our tv in Zoom mode and we could just have a big picture with original resolution! I'm going to try with some Mars Matrix, I know that when SF3 TS is connected with a VGA cable, that the screen scaling option is removes though

.
Let's get to the bottom of this. All in favor? Motion accepted.

Post by **nZero** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:12 pm

SFIII isn't 512x384. It and the other CPS-3 games would require a medium resolution monitor if that was the case.

D · Post by D » Wed May 30, 2007 9:31 pm

Disclaimer, not using a VGA cable, but a SCART cable (the next best thing)

As far as Dreamcast TS goes. I can say this. That the Y+START does something really bad. It downscales the image

I bet it goes from 384X224 to 320x240. I don't know of the signal is 320x240 or that a line doubler is used si that it displays 640x480 (every pixel is doubled)

This is ridiculous, look at Sean little icon on the character select screen. It looks like he has only one eye!

People, please don't use this mode! The screen is big though!

The normal mode is offcourse very blurry

But the L+START mode is great! the image is a little bit smaller, but Sean has 2 eyes and everything looks crisp. I suggest this mode!
Stil not sure what this does though. And am stunned that this is not the default mode

I just checked and in VGA mode the codes do nothing at all. VGA looks very similar to the L+START mode.
I'm going to play with RGB SCART with L+START and my HDTV in 14:9 mode, which zooms the screen a bit, while retaining the original aspect ratio.

D · Post by D » Wed May 30, 2007 9:58 pm

nZero wrote:SFIII isn't 512x384. It and the other CPS-3 games would require a medium resolution monitor if that was the case.

I don't get it either. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPS-3
CPS2 = 384 x 224, maybe CPS3 is also that then?
nice thread: http://forum.capcom-europe.com/viewtopi ... f689a90661
I stand corrected and so are my previous posts, thanks for pointing that out nZero. Anyway, back to SF3 DC. I did notice sprite tearing when for instance Sean was hit with for instance Ken's fireball. This happens in all three non VGA modes. In VGA mode there's no tearing at all. But my tv has no useful scalling modes when my tv is set on the VGA channel so SCART + L+START it is.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:59 pm

Those look pretty nice, Strider. I've got a 29" RGB TV I use for my old games, which is pretty much all I'm playing at this juncture. It is nice to know there's something that make them look tolerable if I'm ever without.

One thing though. They are definitely not running in true low res. They're running at 480p w/ fake scanlines. True low-res is 240p with native scanlines.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:59 am

One thing though. They are definitely not running in true low res. They're running at 480p w/ fake scanlines. True low-res is 240p with native scanlines.

yeah..... I am talking about the signal I am getting out of the emotia. It really is 240p; the process of getting 240p with scanlines on my HDTV really wasn't anything "new" to me just the emotia unit and using it.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:03 am

I don't understand, PS3 has HDMI right? go with that.
PS2 has VGA (and component) go with that and then use the fake scanlines if you want

I use HDMI and component with my PS3.... for 2 different purposes.

How can I get VGA out of a PS2? I am serious about that question.