"That life bar crap"-Can a good shmup have it?

[sfried]

Forgive me for making a separate post about something that might already have been addressed, but...

Having read this thread, I kind of did notice that fewer shmups are made using health bar method. Very nice introductory shmups used this, and there were a nice variety of them back then (good for getting people into regular shmups, and even then, a three-bar-structure can still generate enough tension). But now the one-hit-get-killed requirement sort of became predominant. Why the homogeneity? And couldn't more shooters implement a sort of one credit-one life three-bars-of-health system a la Radigy? (plus, perhaps, a sort of multiply the score by 3rds to create a sort of penalty for getting hit i.e. 2 bars = only 2/3rd's of your score is counted)

[P_HAT]

short - yes.

[Icarus]

Hai.

[Gorecki]

Guwange has a lifebar, and that's a good schchmup (top 25 be damned!).

In general though, if I get hit, I want to die messily. The more unforgiving a game is the more respect I seem to give it.

[Veracity]

Yes, and trying to design a game too much around a priori rules (in reference to the linked thread) is probably a bad idea. That said, I'm personally less likely to want to try it than a game with one-hit kills. This isn't really a question of difficulty, but clarity - faced with a mess of flashing lights, I find it easier to understand what's going on if getting hit is immediately fatal than if it reduces some arbitrary counter, often with less audio-visual feedback.

It may be worth noting, though, if it's not too obvious, that traditional 'lives' aren't really different from hit points if the player immediately respawns in place. All the Shikigami no Shiro games do this, but make enough noise about it that I don't think anyone could be confused over whether they've taken a hit. So maybe what I really mean is yes, but you'd better make sure the feedback is good - I don't want to have to keep glancing at a shield gauge to be sure whether I clipped a bullet.

[roker]

Lords of Thunder is one of my favs of all time

so I'd say a big: YES!

[Pixel_Outlaw]

As long as all patterns are avoidable, yes.

[the allett]

I agree with what roker just said

[ktownhero]

For me, the life bar (literally or metaphorically) only works with old school shooters where the hit box is huge. Like I don't mind the "life bar" style gameplay in Super Star Soldier, but Dodonpachi would suck with it.

[ktownhero]

Yes, and trying to design a game too much around a priori rules (in reference to the linked thread) is probably a bad idea.

That is the most wildly inappropriate use of "a priori" I have ever seen

[WarpZone]

A less obvious but excellent example of a life bar in action is the Gradius series' force field (particularly GV). Clarity is never an issue, because the shield's size visually depicts the remaining health, so it's unnecessary to look elsewhere or try and guess how much health is lost.

The force field also has a sense of dynamism that most life bars don't. As it serves as a physical extension of the Vic Viper, more health equals a larger hit-box, which has its own ramifications for passive/aggressive play, especially because hits lost are dependent on the severity of the collision; brushing a bullet has just a small punishment, while a full-on crash is instant death.

Additionally, the shield can be replenished frequently (usually every six power-ups), giving survival a feeling of tension and release as you scramble for a new shield or settle back into a more comfortable routine, sometimes "doubling" your health by preparing the power-bar for another force field.

[jp]

Lords of Thunder and Super God Trooper Zeroigar = yes indeed.


I'm sure there's more... but those are the two that immediately came to mind.

[Andi]

Having multiple lives with instant respawns is the exact same thing as a life bar. If you can get hit so many time before you get game over, it doesn't matter whether it's a bar or a life counter.

[Davey]

If you can get hit so many time before you get game over, it doesn't matter whether it's a bar or a life counter.

It's all psychological. For some reason, one hit deaths seem more harsh than three hit deaths, even if the total number of allowed hits is the same (for me, anyway).

I haven't played any shmups with a life bar besides Guwange. Do enemy attacks have varying degrees of damage? Like do bigger bullets do more damage than smaller ones, or direct hits do more damage than grazing? I think a shmup like that would lack that paranoid edge that comes from not being able to touch anything (whether that's good or bad would be a personal preference, I suppose).

[BulletMagnet]

Having multiple lives with instant respawns is the exact same thing as a life bar. If you can get hit so many time before you get game over, it doesn't matter whether it's a bar or a life counter.

Cotton 2 actually messes with this a little bit...while the main score mechanic is sealing up enemies and throwing them at each other for chains, you can also blast sealed enemies repeatedly to earn health recovery items: you get some points for this, but not nearly as many as you do when chaining, so if you want to get some life back you have to sacrifice some points. Same goes for the "tea time" bonus rounds: do you snag the cups to regain life, or try to avoid them for the secret bonus?

The interesting thing about Cotton 2 is that you can choose to focus on regaining life at almost any point, though obviously it's more difficult in some situations than others (what you want to do also affects your weapon choice, among other things, as well as your ability to score).

[Brett]

I like the life bar in Area 88/UN Squadron: after you take a hit, you're in "critical" mode for a while, and if you take another hit during that time you'll die. But if you survive it, your plane will stabilize and you'll be able to take another hit, although there is an upper limit.

This means you still want to be as careful as possible when you play -- I haven't run into a situation where intentionally taking a hit seemed like a risk worth taking -- but it's a little more forgiving than instant death.

[sfried]

It's all psychological. For some reason, one hit deaths seem more harsh than three hit deaths, even if the total number of allowed hits is the same (for me, anyway).

...I think a shmup like that would lack that paranoid edge that comes from not being able to touch anything (whether that's good or bad would be a personal preference, I suppose).

Which is why I kind of proposed the idea of taking off a 3rd of your score every time you get hit (and each time you do, it can be treated as a sort of death as Veracity said). The trouble is finding a kind of concept where point scoring is given relative priority as well.

Also, life bars eliminate the need for respawn "clearing" and the need for checkpoints. That whole part about psychology is exactly why some won't play a shmup: It's too harsh just to get a regular clear.

[Blade]

Some days, Change Air Blade just doesn't get enough lovin'.

[auryn]

1944 The Loop Master has a life bar, seems to work fine in that game... but I'll be damned if I can ever make it last 16 stages!

[shinsage]

NES 1943 had it too, I thought it was strange but I didn't complain.

[Pirate1019]

Meh, if the life bar is simply 3 hits and your credit is over, which is effectively the same as a one-hit death, 3 lives system, then I don't mind. Anything else takes a little getting used to.

[BrianC]

NES 1943 had it too, I thought it was strange but I didn't complain.

Not only the NES version. The arcade 1943 and 1943 Kai have them too. The really odd thing is that, unlike most shmups, the life bar automatically ticks down and needs to be refilled.

1941 also has a life bar. It's static, unlike the 1943 life bar, but the unique thing about it is that it can be extended depending on how you do in the levels.

[jeremycarrier]

Guwange has a lifebar.

Guwange kicks ass.

Close thread.

[JJG]

Does Border Down have a life bar or does it just let you scrape a bit before you die, can't remember?

[BulletMagnet]

Does Border Down have a life bar or does it just let you scrape a bit before you die, can't remember?

The latter.

[stuminator]

Lots of Capcom shmups in the late 80's to early 90's used life bars (Forgotten Worlds, 1943, 1943 Kai, 1941, UN Squadron, the borderliner Mercs) and it worked well in those games.

[Dann]

radirgy also has a life bar, as does steam hearts i believe

[Nakano]

Some of my favs like Area 88, Guwange and Mr Heli uses it, so definitely yes!

[CMoon]

These are just the exceptions. Everyone knows that most shmups with a lifebar are no good. Of course, there's probably a reason for this--most shmups with lifebars are not made in Japan. That is, they aren't from the major shmup developers we all love.

Seriously, a new shmup rolls around and it is by a company no one has ever heard of? lifebar = suck.

[SFKhoa]

A life-bar is acceptable as long as they don't sacrifice the hitbox size.