Bye Bye dualshock.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:48 am

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=ne ... &id=332037

What are Sony going to do?

You know this is Microsofts fault. Immersion went to sue Microsoft origonally, but Microsoft made a settlement payout on the grounds that Immersion would sue Sony instead. Immersion make products for Microsoft such as Direct X.

Apparently, its the dual motor patent infringement. GC uses a single motor so is not eligible for the same treatment. So expect to see PS1 and PS2 systems pulled off shelves shortly that contain Dualshock or dualshock 2 joypads.

Dirty lawyer tactics here i'm afraid. I would expect the price of extra joypads, cables and memory cards to go up to recoup the losses.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:52 am

Oh my god, I love the Duelshock controllers!! But what Sony is doing to use to replace the Duelshock controller?

The n00b · Post by **The n00b** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:14 am

MS paid, now Sony has to pay. Sounds fair to me.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:26 am

Microsoft paid a pittance though. Not only did Sony have to pay $90.1 million but they also have to withdraw all systems and accessories that contain a dualshock controller. Thats going to hurt big time, there must be 5-10 million dualshocks on store shelves around the world. Thats going to cost Billions.

Microsoft must be happy what they accomplished.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:41 am

Simple. Just make a three-motor system. And that should be it. But, why now? Why not when it came out? The dual shock came out in 1998. That's SEVEN FU**ING YEARS, for crying out loud!

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:52 am

I just read that too , here:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... nologyNews

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:05 am

But how do you know if something you've invented causes conflict with a patent?

The whole Patent thing should only concern end products and brand names, not the technology behind it. Microsoft windows uses ideas borrowed from 100's of places and it's not been sued over any of it.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:39 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:But how do you know if something you've invented causes conflict with a patent?

Read related patents.

Anyway, I read the news some time ago. A big win for Immersion. A fair loss to Sony. No gain (if not a loss) for the consumer.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:49 am

neorichieb1971 wrote: there must be 5-10 million dualshocks on store shelves around the world. Thats going to cost Billions.

World being the key phrase. Since the US is still unsuccessful in it's plan of world domination, this ruling is only applicable in the US.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:24 am

That's what patent lawyers are for. However, I'm not sure how the common man accomplishes such an act. Probably costs much $$$.

Where I work, we just submit the patent idea and the lawyer(s) take it from there. They research it for you and then tell you whether it is viable to continue or not. Or you can push to go forward.

My last submission came back with 2 results for possible prior art. It's absolutely amazing with the millions of patents, that they can find it. I don't know how they do it.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:28 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:Microsoft windows uses ideas borrowed from 100's of places and it's not been sued over any of it.

"Borrowed" is putting it very mildly.

EDIT:

Immersion, a California-based developer of tactile feedback technology, claimed Sony Computer Entertainment infringed on its technologies that make a game controller vibrate in sync with actions in games, the Japanese game maker said.

If that's the case, could they go after whoever made the Rez vibrator? Or could they have gone after Nintendo years ago when they introduced the Rumble Pak? Or the old Aura InterAct, anyone remember that thing? The objects weren't "controllers," per se, but they vibrated in sync with the game onscreen, same concept...

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:33 am

I think the patent is for vibration by 2 motors in tandem.

I don't believe anyone apart from M$ and Sony have used a dual motor feedback vibration method.

Origonally before Gran Turismo came out on Japanese import, there was a predecessor to the Dual shock. Can't remember its name now, but it used 1 motor and was considered too weak, hence the upgrade to 2 motors for the GT launch.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:41 am

They can appeal, can't they? This seems very extreme...

FatalError · Post by **FatalError** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 pm

The Dual Shock is the least of Sony's worries when it comes to this lawsuit.
The judge presiding over the case has also issued an injunction forbidding Sony from selling Dual Shock controllers, as well as "40 game software products".

Here's part of the actual text of the court orders including the list of games affected by this lawsuit (taken from Slashdot):

IMMERSION CORPORATION, Plaintiff, v. SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA, INC., SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT, INC., and MICROSOFT CORPORATION,
Defendants.

No. C 02-0710 CW

ORDER ENTERING PERMANENT INJUNCTION AND GRANTING DEFENDANTS' MOTION TO STAY INJUNCTION PENDING APPEAL

For the reasons set forth in its January 10, 2005 Order, and having entered judgment in favor of Plaintiff Immersion Corp. (Immersion), the Court hereby PERMANENTLY ENJOINS Defendants Sony Computer Entertainment America, Inc., (SCEA) and Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc., (SCEI) (collectively Sony) from manufacturing, using, and/or selling in, or importing into, the United States the infringing Sony Playstation system, including its Playstation consoles, Dualshock controllers, and those games found by the jury to infringe. [FN1: The jury found that the following games, in conjunction with the Playstation consoles and Dualshock controllers, infringed either the '213 patent, the '333 patent or both patents: A Bug's Life; Amplitude; Ape Escape; Atlantis: The Lost Empire; Bloody Roar 2; Cool Boarders 3; Cool Boarders 4; Cool Boarders 2001; Crash Bash; Crash Team Racing; Drakan: The Ancients' Gate; Emperor's New Groove; Extermination; FantaVision; Final Fantasy X; Formula One 2001; The Getaway; Gran Turismo; Gran Turismo 2; Gran Turismo 3; Grand Theft Auto: Vice City; Grand Theft Auto 3; Grind Session; ICO; Jak & Daxter; Kinetica; Kingdom Hearts; Legend of the Dragoon; The Mark of Kri; Medal of Honor Frontline; Medievil 2; Metal Gear Solid 2; Monster's, Inc.; Sly Cooper and the Thievius Racoonus; SOCOM Navy Seals; Speed Punks; Spyro: Ripto's Rage; Spyro: Year of the Dragon; Stuart Little 2; Syphon Filter 2; Syphon Filter 3; Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3; Twisted Metal: Black; Twisted Metal 4; Twisted Metal: Small Brawl; Treasure Planet; and War of the Monsters.] As described in the January 10 Order, no recall is required of products already sold, but Sony will pay a license fee on all products already placed in the stream of commerce.

You can read the entire order here.

The n00b · Post by **The n00b** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:52 pm

It's their technology, they can decide if they want to be M$ fanboys or $ony lovers. It's all their deal, stop the griping. As for the U.S. world domination comment, the U.S. is one of the biggest markets in the world. A U.S. court ruling will put you on firmer footing than none. It forces the EU and Japan to at least make the effort of investigating the complaint. It works the same way for the U.S. Recently, Mexico has been really protective of its tequila industry. Lawyers for Mexico have shut down tons of American distillers who thought they could make some form of tequila and sell it.

I'm kind of tired of people treating other countries like pirate coves. There are plenty of developed countries, with an interest in the patent system, besides the U.S. They have their own economic system tied to the outside world and their populations are not full of tribalistic cavemen.

magnum opus · Post by **magnum opus** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:52 pm

wait can they even make sony stop selling, for instance, GTA? sony doesn't make or publish it. but yeah the controllers are no problem sony eats some cash and releases a controller with a different rumble scheme. it the rest of this shit thats gonna be a problem.

FatalError · Post by **FatalError** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:08 pm

magnum opus wrote:wait can they even make sony stop selling, for instance, GTA? sony doesn't make or publish it. but yeah the controllers are no problem sony eats some cash and releases a controller with a different rumble scheme. it the rest of this shit thats gonna be a problem.

According to the order, Sony does not have to recall the software in question, but for every game sold that is on the list, Sony must pay a license fee to Immersion.

I don't know if it is a flat license fee per game sold, or a percentage based off the MSRP of every game.

I'd sure like to know how they came up with this specific list of games though.

magnum opus · Post by **magnum opus** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:06 pm

The n00b wrote: I'm kind of tired of people treating other countries like pirate coves. There are plenty of developed countries, with an interest in the patent system, besides the U.S. They have their own economic system tied to the outside world and their populations are not full of tribalistic cavemen.

They also have their own copyright and patent laws. However America has a tendency to use it's status as an economic powerhouse to enforce our laws internationally. I don't know the particulars but I know the EU has some serious problems with american software copyrights.

this isn't really the case here but criticizing american patent laws is certainly not baseless.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:15 pm

FatalError wrote:I'd sure like to know how they came up with this specific list of games though.

Probably because the Dual Shock feature is integral to the game or at least a large part. Ape Excape, Spyro 2 and 3, Syphon Filter 1-3 - I have all those and can tell you from experience that the twin analog joysticks are key. Are the games playable w/o the twin sticks? Yes. Do they suck w/o the twin sticks? Yes. Games like Cool Boarders (also referenced in the list) suck w/o analog control. Even if all the games listed don't make use of the "rumble" feature, the twin sticks are integral to properly play the game.

Personally, I'm with Specineff - Sony needs to get on the ball and make a 3-motor system for the rumble & twin stick feature so those of us who use the Dual Shock features aren't left in the cold because of it.

The n00b · Post by **The n00b** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:38 pm

magnum opus wrote:
The n00b wrote: I'm kind of tired of people treating other countries like pirate coves. There are plenty of developed countries, with an interest in the patent system, besides the U.S. They have their own economic system tied to the outside world and their populations are not full of tribalistic cavemen.
They also have their own copyright and patent laws. However America has a tendency to use it's status as an economic powerhouse to enforce our laws internationally. I don't know the particulars but I know the EU has some serious problems with american software copyrights.

this isn't really the case here but criticizing american patent laws is certainly not baseless.

You can also make a case for criticizing EU and Japanese patent laws. Frequently might makes right in these cases. However that still doesn't explain how Mexico is able to so successfully navigate the American patent system. I would say that we should leave this type of criticism to patent lawyers since they are probably the only ones who have the vaguest idea of what they are talking about.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:08 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:Microsoft paid a pittance though. Not only did Sony have to pay $90.1 million but they also have to withdraw all systems and accessories that contain a dualshock controller. Thats going to hurt big time, there must be 5-10 million dualshocks on store shelves around the world. Thats going to cost Billions.

Microsoft must be happy what they accomplished.

Thats because Microsoft settled, whereas Sony took their chance in court. They don't have to withdraw their controllers and systems. They got an injunction that allows them to sell their products normally throughout the upcoming appeal, they just have to give Immersion a chunk of their sales. It's not Microsofts fault Sony didnt' settle.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:10 am

The n00b wrote:It's their technology, they can decide if they want to be M$ fanboys or $ony lovers. It's all their deal, stop the griping. As for the U.S. world domination comment, the U.S. is one of the biggest markets in the world. A U.S. court ruling will put you on firmer footing than none. It forces the EU and Japan to at least make the effort of investigating the complaint. It works the same way for the U.S. Recently, Mexico has been really protective of its tequila industry. Lawyers for Mexico have shut down tons of American distillers who thought they could make some form of tequila and sell it.

I'm kind of tired of people treating other countries like pirate coves. There are plenty of developed countries, with an interest in the patent system, besides the U.S. They have their own economic system tied to the outside world and their populations are not full of tribalistic cavemen.

Agreed. Even though tequila is a mexican invention, IIRC, (I used to live only 40 mins away from the town that gives the drink its name) those actions seem a bit too extreme. That's like germans or russians shutting down beer or vodka manufacturers. Of course, foreign tequila wouldn't taste the same as the original one due to many factors, but it's not like people are going to forget about Cuervo and Sauza because of the alternatives.

jp · Post by jp » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:28 am

Good.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:07 am

jp wrote:Good.

that sure is a concise comment on such a complex issue. i applaud you sir.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:16 am

FRO wrote:
FatalError wrote:I'd sure like to know how they came up with this specific list of games though.

Probably because the Dual Shock feature is integral to the game or at least a large part. Ape Excape, Spyro 2 and 3, Syphon Filter 1-3 - I have all those and can tell you from experience that the twin analog joysticks are key. Are the games playable w/o the twin sticks? Yes. Do they suck w/o the twin sticks? Yes. Games like Cool Boarders (also referenced in the list) suck w/o analog control. Even if all the games listed don't make use of the "rumble" feature, the twin sticks are integral to properly play the game.

Personally, I'm with Specineff - Sony needs to get on the ball and make a 3-motor system for the rumble & twin stick feature so those of us who use the Dual Shock features aren't left in the cold because of it.[/quote

EDIT:!!! (this is my reply...the quote feature isn't working properly here)
Still, it sounds like someone(Immersion) is really trying to get rich quick here.
I don't feel like reading the whole thing, but this is about a controller featuring two sticks that vibrate? So you mean, everything relating to sex toys to Smash TV can jump in and sue Sony now?
(Smash TV was one of the older "two joystick" games as was Robotron, and sex toys have been "vibrating" for years!)

This is one of those

type lawsuits I think.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:28 am

Geez. I'll probably have to stock a few Dual Shocks depending on how this thing turns out. I know I'll be playing a ton of games on my ps2.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:20 am

They have Bloody Roar 2 in the list.

BLOODY ROAR 2 !

This game doesn't require a dual shock to be playable. Not at all really.

This list seems to be completely odd.

E. Randy Dupre · Post by **E. Randy Dupre** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:43 pm

FRO wrote:
FatalError wrote:I'd sure like to know how they came up with this specific list of games though.
Probably because the Dual Shock feature is integral to the game or at least a large part.

No it isn't. Dual analogue control is integral to those games, not the rumble feature. The only time that rumble is used in a way that alters how a game plays is when it's to signify a hidden item or something (like in OoT and Maximo 2, for example). And even then it's not exactly all that important.

Sony's first analogue PSX controller featured twin sticks, but not rumble. If they were forced to abide by this ruling, all they'd have to do is go back to something like that.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:13 pm

^^ Then they need to get on the ball and do a 3-motor rumble. As long as they don't have to get rid of the twin sticks - too many games use the analog control to have to give that up.

The rumble feature is actually something I enjoy to an extent, and I'm sure Sony understands that with most systems now having a "rumble" feature built in it would be foolish to proceed w/o a contingency plan for adding it back in.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:10 pm

"If that's the case, could they go after whoever made the Rez vibrator? Or could they have gone after Nintendo years ago when they introduced the Rumble Pak? Or the old Aura InterAct, anyone remember that thing? The objects weren't "controllers," per se, but they vibrated in sync with the game onscreen, same concept..."

Very good points Bulletmagnet, this sounds like a cheap money grab from Immersion's part to me.

In any case, I'm glad I already got my PSTwo!

I don't know how much this will hurt Sony, in any case-the PS3 is coming out next year, and may or may not have this function in it's controllers, and Sony can still appeal.