DoDonPachi speed - Saturn vs. MAME

it290 · Post by **it290** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:01 am

Hey all,

I've been playing DDP fairly regularly under MAME for about a month now. I've had the Saturn version for a while as well, but didn't play it very often because of visibility issues when in non-tate mode. Well, today I went out and bought a TV specifically for tate, and thought I'd test it out by playing some DDP. Upon playing the game, I realized that the Saturn version seems to run a good clip faster. I checked the game under MAME again to be sure, and that version was certainly slower. My PC is running the game at 100% all the time, as well. So I was wondering, is this just a MAME bug, or is the Saturn version really faster than the actual PCB?

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:40 am

I never actually did a side-by-side comparison, but it sounds interesting. I don't have my Saturn here atm but I will try it out.

You might want to re-title the thread, since people probably assume you're asking if the Saturn version is any worse, and everyone already knows the answer

gunbird18 · Post by **gunbird18** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:55 am

I've noticed that as well, it! Sorry I don't have the tech knowledge to explain why. But I guess I can at least confirm what you have observed. The Saturn version definitely runs a good clip faster! Must be all of the power in that precious black box!

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:59 am

Its okay, the PCB slowed down like a b*tch. MAME is probably just recreating the PCB experience to a T.

The saturn runs faster, and the PSone runs fastest still and even has a slowdown option in the options menu to give the authentic experience.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:15 am

It's not just during the slowdown, though -- it seems like the Saturn version runs faster even when not much is going on. I noticed that MAME says the game runs at 58 fps; I assume the Saturn version runs at 60.. maybe that could explain part of the difference.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:37 am

neorichieb1971 wrote: The saturn runs faster, and the PSone runs fastest still and even has a slowdown option in the options menu to give the authentic experience.

I really hate that slowdown button!! It makes me want to use it all the time, and cheat! That's why I never play the game that much.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:46 am

The Saturn version is a port, not emulated. Therefore the number of differences in playability and speed are probably numerous.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:25 am

I've played all the versions and Mame DDP is the slowest around, by far. PCB is definitely faster and should be everyone's first choice, playing for score on Mame is a big waste of time. Saturn is faster than PCB and Mame, and personally my choice since I don't have the board handy. I like it better than the PSX one which is quite faster, but if you want the hardest version, go for Raine, not a drop of slowdown in it.

Getting an ALL clear in Mame is the most bittersweet victory you could get, I wouldn't even bother. Basically, if you can't play the board, go with the Saturn (everyone will tell you the PSX is the best port, but they just don't know their DDP).

lmn4096 · Post by **lmn4096** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:51 am

NTSC-J: did you try DDP on previous MAME or recent ? because there is a big step with mame before 0.78 and after 0.78 until recent one.
and it's not only for DDP but all cave game under MAME.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:45 pm

I play DoDonPachi using MAME0X through the XBOX. I also own the original Saturn port as well, both seem to play about the same in my opinion...however, the MAME version has slightly more slowdown.(nothing bad though)
I even have a cd-r version for the PSX(for comparison purposes) The PSX version runs too fast I think. I'm willing to bet that the original PCB operates somewhere in between the Saturn port and MAME.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:19 pm

Thanks guys. Guess I'll have to stick with the Saturn version for scoring, then. My scores seem to have dropped by about 6 million points on average, but practice makes perfect.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:17 pm

I wonder if TATE has any effect...

tehkao · Post by **tehkao** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:38 pm

Basically, if you can't play the board, go with the Saturn (everyone will tell you the PSX is the best port, but they just don't know their DDP).

Care to elaborate why?...I missed most of the Saturn DDP vs PS DDP wars around here....

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:26 pm

Well for years people have been jocking the PSX DDP because of its smooth framerate, but if we're talking score competitions, you want the version closest to the original arcade release. Saturn DDP may have some pixelly explosions and some audio problems, but pound for pound, it's the closest port to the PCB. Plus, the PSX DDP has you choose the ship types via a menu screen beforehand. And that's just stupid.

I haven't played the most recent Mame, but personally, emulation no matter how spot on, always feels fake to me. I still buy my Fami/SuFami carts even after getting the roms just to do it "for real".

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:58 am

Not to fan the flames, but what about the PSX version with wait turned on? Wouldn't that be closer to the PCB?

MadSteelDarkness · Post by **MadSteelDarkness** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:53 am

I own both console versions of DDP, and must say I prefer the PSX version. The graphics are a bit better, and the sound is leaps and bounds ahead of the Saturn rev, which sounds pretty muffled throughout ("Dodododo..*muffled explosion sound*"). I actually like to play the PSX rev with "Wait Off", but as I've said before I am a bit of a masochist.

It amps up the challenge level quite nicely! The ship select screwup is annoying, but since I'm pretty much strictly a Type C kind of guy, I don't find myself ever having to change it.

The Saturn port isn't bad by any means, but pixelly explosions tend to distract me when half of the screen is filled with 'em. There is also the "bonus" of the "Saturn mode" in that version, but I've only spent a couple of minutes with it. Suffice to say, it's not anything to get excited about.

Obviously, the PCB would be the preferred route. But if you don't have a cab or supergun, either console version would do the trick.

everyone will tell you the PSX is the best port, but they just don't know their DDP

Heh, I must not know my DDP then, but I know what I like. And I like the PSX rev best, personally.

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:45 am

The original arcade PCB runs at something like 57.5fps (roughtly 58fps), which when compared to a Saturn's constant 60fps, is a bit slower. A lot of players say they don't notice the difference, but if you can chain competently, you'll notice a lot of problems adjusting to the chain timing from PCB/MAME to Saturn, and vice versa.

All Cave games that ran on the same hardware as DDP run at 57.5fps.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:54 am

Yup, the psx port is certainly a little better than the saturn port, but the saturn might have more of the slowdown the PCB has.

Make that two people who just don't know their DDP.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:56 am

it290 wrote:Not to fan the flames, but what about the PSX version with wait turned on? Wouldn't that be closer to the PCB?

Yea, the "wait" turned on will provide a simulated type PCB slowdown, but its still faster than the Saturn version. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to say that the Saturn version of Pachi is R-Type Final slow, it just seems "fair". Again, not much difference when played through MAME... MAME just slows down a tad more here and there.
The PSX version just seems "harder" for some reason(even with wait on)

BTW: The Saturn version was the first Pachi I ever played, and also the first one I 1CC'ed.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:22 am

If you want blazing fast DDP, that's fine, go with the PSX or Raine. I'm just speaking in terms of fair competition, you want the version most like the original.

It should be noted that the PSX version has very minor differences with chaining as well. I'm almost positive that the stage one chain worked a little differently on the PSX and initially it threw me off. I completely lost it in places that never give me trouble in other versions. To be fair, all the versions have weird quirks like this. I'm used to the Saturn rev allowing me to grab the power up right before the midboss without it breaking my chain (provided you're very close to the boss with your laser) even though the PCB always ends your chain if you happen to grab the power up before the midboss dies.

But these are very picky differences only DDP nuts notice. DDP is still DDP however you're playing.

And anyone ignoring the Saturn mode DDP is missing out. Differences include a decreased difficulty, no loop (which means you get to fight Hibachi after the last boss! badass), and an exclusive level that is graphically brilliant.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:41 am

I have noticed that the Saturn version seems to have a little less left-to-right space overall, or something. It's especially noticable on the first boss, as he tends to move one of his pods almost completely off the screen at times, which doesn't seem to happen in the arcade version.

As for the speed, I tried it in Raine (latest Linux build) and it seemed to run at the same speed as in MAME. Perhaps they've changed something in both emulators recently? I'm probably going to play the Saturn version exclusively for a while, since the difference in speed not only throws off my chain timing, but also bullet dodging.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:06 am

Are you playing in TATE mode? I've never noticed this "off the screen" type stuff.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:25 am

NTSC-J wrote:Getting an ALL clear in Mame is the most bittersweet victory you could get, I wouldn't even bother. Basically, if you can't play the board, go with the Saturn (everyone will tell you the PSX is the best port, but they just don't know their DDP).

What's the point of having the closest to the PCB version if the PCB is flawed? Not saying the DDP PCB is necessarily flawed, but if a better version, in many regards, exists via PS, then why would anyone not think that's the best. It be like saying a console port that runs at 60 FPS is inferior to the arcade original that runs at 30 FPS simply because the latter is the PCB (not that this situation exists). I have both the PS and SS versions, and like most people that have played both have said, the PS version provides a better and more challenging experience, which is always the best way to go.

MadSteelDarkness · Post by **MadSteelDarkness** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:33 am

NTSC-J wrote:anyone ignoring the Saturn mode DDP is missing out. Differences include a decreased difficulty, no loop (which means you get to fight Hibachi after the last boss! badass), and an exclusive level that is graphically brilliant.

Huh. It's true that I didn't really spend much time with it. I'll fire her up tomorrow and give the Saturn mode another go.

Then again, decreased difficulty isn't exactly a selling point for me

.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:37 am

And anyone ignoring the Saturn mode DDP is missing out. Differences include a decreased difficulty, no loop (which means you get to fight Hibachi after the last boss! badass), and an exclusive level that is graphically brilliant.

Hehe! Somehow I knew Kaneda would not join a thread on shmups.com without at least a little sarcasm

MadSteelDarkness · Post by **MadSteelDarkness** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:51 am

Neon wrote:
And anyone ignoring the Saturn mode DDP is missing out. Differences include a decreased difficulty, no loop (which means you get to fight Hibachi after the last boss! badass), and an exclusive level that is graphically brilliant.
Hehe! Somehow I knew Kaneda would not join a thread on shmups.com without at least a little sarcasm

Heh...really...

"...graphically brilliant"?

Ahhh...good times!

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:56 am

Nemo wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:Getting an ALL clear in Mame is the most bittersweet victory you could get, I wouldn't even bother. Basically, if you can't play the board, go with the Saturn (everyone will tell you the PSX is the best port, but they just don't know their DDP).
What's the point of having the closest to the PCB version if the PCB is flawed? Not saying the DDP PCB is necessarily flawed, but if a better version, in many regards, exists via PS, then why would anyone not think that's the best. It be like saying a console port that runs at 60 FPS is inferior to the arcade original that runs at 30 FPS simply because the latter is the PCB (not that this situation exists). I have both the PS and SS versions, and like most people that have played both have said, the PS version provides a better and more challenging experience, which is always the best way to go.

There exsist a similar argument in the classic car world. Some people who have cars(like mine) believe that they should be kept all original, while others, like myself(HotRodders) believe that the cars should be made better and faster.
All in all, its what you prefer and what you want your car to be.
I can appreciate an all original muscle car, but I'd rather drool over some suped up street car. I'm the opposite though, in regards to gaming...I prefer to play the game as close to original as possibe. Meaning "overclocking" is like HotRodding, and with video games, they should be all original.
So, if the PCB has slowdown, I want to play the game with that very same slowdown.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:33 am

Are you playing in TATE mode? I've never noticed this "off the screen" type stuff.

Yup, I'm playing in TATE. It's not totally off the screen, but it seems the boss definitely moves a little bit more to the left or right -- it's a bit harder to keep your laser trained on the pod in the Saturn version. Another example is on stage two -- I don't have side-by-side screenshots to be able to tell for sure, but if you check out the crater full of stars directly to the left of the flower building, it seems like there is a bit more crater there when you move all the way to the left.

What's the point of having the closest to the PCB version if the PCB is flawed?

Well, if you're interested in hi scores, it's just that the PCB is the standard, so it's obviously good if a port is as close as possible. Additionally, more challenging is not necessarily better. Cave tuned the game a certain way, and that is represented in the arcade version. Even if the slowdown was unintentional, it's part of the original game design. This is stretching the analogy a bit, but having a port that runs faster is a bit like some of the flawed US versions of games that Working Designs has released -- it's just not the way the designers intended it.

Speaking of slowdown in DDP, I think it's amazing that the game runs as well as it does, when you consider that it's running on a 16mhz 68000.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:59 am

MadSteelDarkness wrote:
Neon wrote:
And anyone ignoring the Saturn mode DDP is missing out. Differences include a decreased difficulty, no loop (which means you get to fight Hibachi after the last boss! badass), and an exclusive level that is graphically brilliant.
Hehe! Somehow I knew Kaneda would not join a thread on shmups.com without at least a little sarcasm
Heh...really...

"...graphically brilliant"?

Ahhh...good times!

You guys are dorks, what is not cool about a ruined city with lava flowing thru the streets. Plus, the chaining in the level is sort of DonPachi-ish, so it serves as a perfect bridge between the two games.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:49 am

I understand the argument about wanting the version most identical to the PCB from a purist standpoint, but I would think most people would favor getting a superior product to one that is more faithful to the original. That being said, sans the speed of DDP PS, that game is actually much more arcade perfect than its Saturn counterpart. But like Twitch noted, I guess it just comes down to personal preference in the end.