Anybody tried Raiden III's "Double" mode?

[fixjuxa]

Here's the thing about me. I suck at shmups. Bad. Never once 1CCed a shmup. Never. My highscore after putting some 60+ hours into Ikaruga? A shade under 8 million. I think I may have gotten an S rank on Chapter 1 a time or two. But I love'em anyway. There's something about dodging tons of bullets and blowing **** up in two dimensions that I just can't get enough of. Anyway...the point being this:

How the hell can anyone possibly play a shmup and control two ships at once with any kind of proficiency? I've seen that video of somebody playing Ikaruga this way on an arcade cabinet and it's mind blowing. It occurs to me that without an arcade cabinet this kind of thing might not even be possible to attempt because of the button configurations in console shooters. I'm trying to think of the shmups in my collection and I can't think of a single one that would be playable by holding two seperate controllers, one in each hand, at least not without buying a couple arcade stick style controllers. But Raiden III is unique, at least among the shooters that I've played, in that it gives you the option to play with two ships but with only one controller, which makes this particular test of skill much more accessible to the average gamer. So I'm wondering if anybody here has actually tried this mode, and if so, how successful you've been. Because I tried it and it was ugly. I was doing okay for a bit up until the ship I was controlling with my right hand ended up on the left side of the screen(vice versa for the other ship) at which point my brain ceased functioning completely.

[Dave_K.]

I've been playing Viper Phase 1 (arcade PCB in a cabinet) with two ships at once and find it very addictive. It definately took a lot of practice to get my brain accustomed to playing two ships at once, especially if the right hand ship accidentally difts over to the left side of the screen as you indicated. Its a challenge on a whole nother level that makes coming back to some of these games very enjoyable. Plus it looks killer to be able to pull off some complicated moves like in that Ikaruga double play video.

[icepick]

It definately took a lot of practice to get my brain accustomed to playing two ships at once, especially if the right hand ship accidentally difts over to the left side of the screen as you indicated. Its a challenge on a whole nother level that makes coming back to some of these games very enjoyable.

The concept seems kind of like playing DDR in double mode to me, although of course a lot more complex. I think that I would really like to be able to control two ships proficiently at some point; Having a single-controller option like the one in Raiden III seems to lend itself very well to the process.

Even though learning with arcade sticks would probably be best in general, I'd still prefer a sort of custom controller for double play. Maybe someday we'll have doublt play as a standard feature in shmups, maybe even for games supporting two players... something like two-player GigaWing 2 double play, for a total of four ships.

(Two ships alone can make things seem crowded, though. I also didn't really like the double mode in Gunroar, but it was a nice idea. Building a game from the ground up for double play could be pretty interesting, such as where the screen becomes divided by obstruction and each ship needs to destroy something on their side for a closed door to open.)

[PC Engine Fan X!]

There's the crazy four-player mode in the Dreamcast GD-Rom version of Gigawing 2 -- x's four individual players = insane shmup action! ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[iatneH]

I've tried it and I didn't think it was that hard to learn initially. I do it by staring at the middle of the screen most of the time so I can track both my ships wherever they are. I actually did my first double-plays on Ketsui, and I've tried Strikers 1945 III. I still get completely screwed up if 2P ship ends up on the left side and vice-versa though.

Raiden III's control setup is nice and effective, although you really need 2 joysticks to do it properly for anything else.

There's a difference between Doubles and 2P in DDR; the notecharts in Doubles use both pads but are designed for single-player. If you tried to play 2P by yourself, you'd end up on all fours 80% of the time.

[Blade]

I've had fun with it....with more vert shmups had this option, actually.

[j^aws]

Well, I was gonna start a new topic; but since thread necromancy is encouraged here, I'll throw my 2 cents:

IT"S FUCKING AWESOME!

... I've read random Raiden III is shit comments recently around here. And I can relate to things like the useless green lasers; slowass ships; simple scoring system et al for the Solo Mode... but they all 'click' and 'gel' extremely well when playing the PS2 Double Mode...

The slow ships are fast enough when you have two at your control covering the play area; the green laser can be paired strategically and balanced with another weapon on the other ship (the 2 ships act like fully controllable 'orbs'); speed kills can be done in 'style' with double ships...

Fun fact: Continually spinning both ships, 360 degrees about each other, and forming a double-helix weapon with the green or blue lasers, is one of the most satisfying weapon ever!

It does take a bit of getting used to but it's very rewarding. Kinda wished they bundled a limited edition, double-D-pad, Saturn style controller with it or something... heh, maybe Raiden IV...

[themachinist]

Actually, you can play "double d-pad" ish sorta on the regular pS2 controller. the face buttons sq, tri, x, circle can act as a d-pad in double mode, but they're all just spaced too far to be used as an effective d-pad. Actually you probably already knew that. I just use the analog cuz it's easier than trying to use the fake d-pad with my left thumb.

[Shatterhand]

Curiosuly, I tried it yesterday. Got up to level 2 boss, not bad I guess.

But yeah, that´s basically what I did, Red ship on left, blue ship on right. If they change positions I get completely lost. And I really enjoyed it, it gives a new height to the game. Single mode is not as enjoyable as this.

I think after the STGT 07 I may dedicate myself to either this, Gigawing Generations or Psyvariar .

[Pirate1019]

Anybody having trouble getting their brain to cooperate when playing doubleplay should try playing The_Design. I can't remember where I found it so I uploaded it to Mediafire.

I have yet to try doubleplay on Raiden III but I'm waiting until I'm good enough at 1 player.

I tried playing Ikaruga Double with two Gamecube controllers. That was interesting. I got to about halfway through stage two.

[JBC]

Ha! Yeah... i haven't done a 1 life clear yet so i won't even seriously attempt the double mode. I did test it out for fun a couple times though and lost a ship on the second level each time. Usually i make it to at least the fifth area without dying on the regular mode.

[Pirate1019]

Ha! Yeah... i haven't done a 1 life clear yet so i won't even seriously attempt the double mode. I did test it out for fun a couple times though and lost a ship on the second level each time. Usually i make it to at least the fifth area without dying on the regular mode.

Stage three beats on me like football playing roid-pumped masses of muscle and flesh while my skinny (almost) malnourished self is trying to go about my business.

Except I can run faster then RIII's ship.

[j^aws]

Re: Double-D-pad Controllers

... I had something like the Virtual Boy controller in mind but replaced with Saturn style D-pads and 4-shoulder buttons instead... make it happen for Raiden IV!

Twin analogue sticks with small deadzones are still pretty decent though; but lack that tactile feedback from D-pads... might try a twin arcade stick setup in the future; but the button placements don't look ideal though...

[-Bridget-]

Im capable of doing the double-play type of thing; I need a similar type of mindset for certain things I do in a few specific fighting games (dont ask me to explain that, it's complicated).


Raiden 3, though, isnt really the one for me to really go for that on. I just cant get used to the ships being THAT slow. Dont get me wrong, I like the game well enough, but I like to be able to DODGE out of the way, as opposed to remembering where the safe spots are in an attack BEFOREHAND. Controlling 2 massively slow ships is too annoying.


If I could find a better control option to use with other games, I'd do that.


I'd LOVE to try it for Giga Wing......

[j^aws]

... Dont get me wrong, I like the game well enough, but I like to be able to DODGE out of the way, as opposed to remembering where the safe spots are in an attack BEFOREHAND. Controlling 2 massively slow ships is too annoying.
...

I got the game for Double Mode only and played it without prejudice. Within the first few plays I reached stage 3 with mostly 'freestyle' dodging and adrenaline! ... I didn't need to know "BEFOREHAND" to "DODGE"; though it helps, like any other shmup... It's possible to freestyle dodge most of the first 4 stages. I've reached stage 5 which is currently giving me some pains though...

The bullets are fast but the patterns have HUGE gaps relative to your ships extremely SMALL hitboxes... and most of my deaths were about misjudging angles controlling both ships; it never was about the ships being "slow"... However, when I did play Solo Mode (which feels like a completely different game), the slowness of the ships were apparent: This is easily attributed to one ship needing to cover more ground than if there were two ships on-screen...

It actually 'feels' like the game was made for Double Mode, rather than Solo Mode...

[Shatterhand]

Yeah, the game is a lot more enjoyable in Double Mode.

[Mills]

there is a Youtube clip of a japanese shump master playing RAIDEN3 using two ships simultaneously. its a teaser for the Insanity dvd.

[-Bridget-]

... Dont get me wrong, I like the game well enough, but I like to be able to DODGE out of the way, as opposed to remembering where the safe spots are in an attack BEFOREHAND. Controlling 2 massively slow ships is too annoying.
...

I got the game for Double Mode only and played it without prejudice. Within the first few plays I reached stage 3 with mostly 'freestyle' dodging and adrenaline! ... I didn't need to know "BEFOREHAND" to "DODGE"; though it helps, like any other shmup... It's possible to freestyle dodge most of the first 4 stages. I've reached stage 5 which is currently giving me some pains though...

The bullets are fast but the patterns have HUGE gaps relative to your ships extremely SMALL hitboxes... and most of my deaths were about misjudging angles controlling both ships; it never was about the ships being "slow"... However, when I did play Solo Mode (which feels like a completely different game), the slowness of the ships were apparent: This is easily attributed to one ship needing to cover more ground than if there were two ships on-screen...

It actually 'feels' like the game was made for Double Mode, rather than Solo Mode...

Yeah, I think you're right, actually.


As I mentioned in another DP-related thread that I was just looking in, Raiden here sorta got me hooked on it.

Once I actually devoted some time (about an hour, lol) to trying out this mode, I started doing pretty good at it.

Right now it's the third boss that Im a little stuck on. The third part of it, specifically. Need to just find a better way to deal with it..... preferrably without having to bomb the heck outta it. Currently I can go entirely WITHOUT bombing up to that point (though I MIGHT use one on the 2nd boss if the situation warrants it).

4th stage isnt too bad, 4th boss is annoying.

So, those 2, gotta work on them.


I TRIED looking for some DP superplay vids of this game, to learn some tips for the harder bosses, but that didnt happen...... Couldnt find any.

I just haaaaaaaate those two bosses.

What's STUPID, here, is that if I use the "boss rush" mode, on the same difficulty (arcade), and go to the 7th boss, that one actually DOESNT give me as much trouble. There's exactly ONE attack it does that is annoying to me, so I use bombs there.

It's stupid that the 3rd and 4th bosses are harder than the final one.....



Now Im playing GigaWing (nearly beaten it!) and DDP in this mode too, thanks to Raiden.


You're right; this game really DOES feel like it was "made" for this mode.

This mode is where this particular shmup truly shines.

Now Im officially a fan

[j^aws]

...
Now Im officially a fan

Glad to hear that you're enjoying the game.

I've taken a little break from it after reaching stage 6; should be able to clear that stage with some more practice hopefully...

As for stage 3 boss being a bastard: I totally agree! I remember being stuck on that and looking for replays for tips but to no avail... solution? Make your own replays!... The game allows you to do that; so you can study them.

I can currently no-bomb the first 5 bosses; but 2, 3 and 5 can take a bomb each when I'm not taking risks... it's possible to dodge their patterns.

The most powerful weapon is the 'double-blue' lasers, maxed; with 'double-rockets', maxed. I usually use something close to that configuration to take the bosses down quickly before their patterns get nasty; it's very focused and lacks 'spread', but can be effective...

The 3rd boss is probably the hardest I've encountered in the game so far; mainly because it has support enemies that sneak into the screen to throw you off... Also, if the 7th boss is easier in Boss-rush Mode: Remember you have to get there with enough reserves to take it down!

[-Bridget-]

...
Now Im officially a fan

Glad to hear that you're enjoying the game.

I've taken a little break from it after reaching stage 6; should be able to clear that stage with some more practice hopefully...

As for stage 3 boss being a bastard: I totally agree! I remember being stuck on that and looking for replays for tips but to no avail... solution? Make your own replays!... The game allows you to do that; so you can study them.

I can currently no-bomb the first 5 bosses; but 2, 3 and 5 can take a bomb each when I'm not taking risks... it's possible to dodge their patterns.

The most powerful weapon is the 'double-blue' lasers, maxed; with 'double-rockets', maxed. I usually use something close to that configuration to take the bosses down quickly before their patterns get nasty; it's very focused and lacks 'spread', but can be effective...

The 3rd boss is probably the hardest I've encountered in the game so far; mainly because it has support enemies that sneak into the screen to throw you off... Also, if the 7th boss is easier in Boss-rush Mode: Remember you have to get there with enough reserves to take it down!

Bah, that sounds alot like Cave's way of making bosses: where there'll be like, 6 bosses followed by a "true" final boss if you're good enough, but it'll actually be the SECOND boss that's the most annoying by far....

Dunno what it is with Cave and 2nd bosses in their games.... lol.


Im gonna take another shot at Raiden tonight, I think.

SHOULD be able to get further.....

Been playing DDP in this mode, currently I can get near the 5th boss, and clear the first 3 stages without losing a ship (though that 3rd boss is a pain).

So theoretically practice in that will pay off in Raiden.


Of course, I SAY that, but then I'll go into it and likely still die at boss # 3, haha......

[spadgy]

Yeah, the game is a lot more enjoyable in Double Mode.

I tried my first ever double play last night with Raiden III, and it's amazing, the way the game feels designed around the mode, and the way you can do so many little trick moves and stuff.

Strangly, I'm a middling shmup player over all (my non-shmupping mates think I'm amazing. On this forum I seem pretty lame) but I was surprised how quickly it clicked. I got to level three of Raiden III on my third try, and hit over 4 million on my sixth go (using two sticks, but sadly two different ones). In Solo mode, in the two weeks I've been playing, I only hit over 6 million once!

So I'm really going to stick at this. I was really amazed how quickly I could steer each ship independantly, and I'd advise anybody not to be put off by the concept. After double play, solo felt a rather empty experience...

Anybody thing two identical sticks would be better than my VSHG and Hori FS3? Anybody ever made a custom reverse stick? Do they even sell 'left handed' sticks?

[mjclark]

Hmmm...I was wondering about this last week: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=22558 too....
...I think Raiden III absolutely rocks-it's simple solid gameplay and scoring remind me of Shienryu which is another one of my fave's.
A lot of people are down on these games cos they're vanilla but actually they're elegant luxury vanilla

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yeah, the game is a lot more enjoyable in Double Mode.

I tried my first ever double play last night with Raiden III, and it's amazing, the way the game feels designed around the mode, and the way you can do so many little trick moves and stuff.

Strangly, I'm a middling shmup player over all (my non-shmupping mates think I'm amazing. On this forum I seem pretty lame) but I was surprised how quickly it clicked. I got to level three of Raiden III on my third try, and hit over 4 million on my sixth go (using two sticks, but sadly two different ones). In Solo mode, in the two weeks I've been playing, I only hit over 6 million once!

So I'm really going to stick at this. I was really amazed how quickly I could steer each ship independantly, and I'd advise anybody not to be put off by the concept. After double play, solo felt a rather empty experience...

Anybody thing two identical sticks would be better than my VSHG and Hori FS3? Anybody ever made a custom reverse stick? Do they even sell 'left handed' sticks?

You'd need someone make a custom arcade stick with buttons to the left of the joystick layout for such dual-play purposes, spadgy. ^_~

General Consumer Electronics (GCE) once made a prototype left-handed control panel for it's Vectrex console. I've seen it for sale once on eBay and don't know if it got sold or not. The seller said that it was more easier to play with than the normal standard Vectrex control panel layout (four buttons placed to the right of the analog joystick setup). Would been interesting if GCE had marketed that particular left-handed Vectrex controller as most gaming console controllers placed the fire button(s) to the left of the joystick back in the late 1970's and into the early 1980's.

Wico branded joysticks were famous for endowing their 3rd-party produced console joysticks with both fire buttons on both sides of the joystick for righties and lefties from the get-go. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[croikle]

I wonder if you could just turn one stick all the way around, so the buttons are on the left, and then remap the controls so the stick works in that position. Usability would depend on where the buttons are positioned relative to the stick, of course.

One downside of having a special setup is that after training with it you won't be able to just walk into an arcade and perform the same thing easily, if that's part of your goal .

[I'm Alec]

I've never played Raiden III at all, and consequently the dual mode either.

I have played a bit of Batrider in Double mode though. Really fun stuff. Basically after I got my 1cc in Normal mode, I was thinking of stepping up to advanced mode, but figured, well I'll just do Normal Mode with two ships, thats advanced enough. Great stuff, but if my ships cross I'm toast.

I really don't even attempt this with games that have 3 or more buttons though, nor do I try this with games that require rappidly pressing A. Of course now my shooting machines have 1p panels on them, so I'm on dual play hiatus atm.

[lewisit]

now you guys made me curious

so: is it possible to change the controlls in the PC-version of RIII to this (using an original PS-analogpad w/ USB-adapter)?




[EDIT]

this sucks!

i nearly got it to work w/ only one pad:

left analogsick & shoulderbuttons for the red ship - right analogsick & shoulderbuttons for the blue one...

but the right stick doesn't move the blue ship for-/backwards only to the left/right!

(of cause i calibated the pad in the xp-options w/ no problem) what can i do?

[spadgy]

I wonder if you could just turn one stick all the way around,

Such a simple idea I didn't even think of that!

One downside of having a special setup is that after training with it you won't be able to just walk into an arcade and perform the same thing easily, if that's part of your goal .

Good point. Funny you should say that actually, as I suddenly realised there is a Raiden III cab in London. I always go to Casino arcade because that's where the most people and best shooters are, but tonight I'm going to visit Las Vegas Arcade in London and try my hand(s) at Double Play. See how I do in public.

So - does the PCB have a Double Play mode, and if so how do I set it? Or is it just two credits and playing 2P?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I wonder if you could just turn one stick all the way around,

Such a simple idea I didn't even think of that!

One downside of having a special setup is that after training with it you won't be able to just walk into an arcade and perform the same thing easily, if that's part of your goal .

Good point. Funny you should say that actually, as I suddenly realised there is a Raiden III cab in London. I always go to Casino arcade because that's where the most people and best shooters are, but tonight I'm going to visit Las Vegas Arcade in London and try my hand(s) at Double Play. See how I do in public.

So - does the PCB have a Double Play mode, and if so how do I set it? Or is it just two credits and playing 2P?

It would be spending two credits and playing both 1P & 2P on the ol' Raiden III cabinet. And if your amibdexterous, more power to you. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Sturmvogel Prime]

Well, i tried that mode, i was lucky enough to reach the 1st boss.

[maco]

It would be spending two credits and playing both 1P & 2P on the ol' Raiden III cabinet. And if your amibdexterous, more power to you. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

I'm sure there's away to do this using just one coin...

Edit:

And indeed there is.
Push up and press the A button on both 1P and 2P sides for about five seconds after inserting a coin.