Dreamcast VGA Boxes

[ktownhero]

I am in the market for a DC VGA Box.
The official Sega ones seem to be very rare and often pricey once found.
On eBay, I see a lot of 3rd party boxes at a good price.
Does anybody have experience with the 3rd party boxes? I am skeptical of some.

Here is a link to the current ebay listings, if anybody could give me some input on these 3rd party boxes I would greatly appreciate it:


http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dl ... amcast+vga

I already have a nice arcade stick built. I have a few extra monitors laying around, so I'd like to build a nice little temporary DC arcade setup for now until I can start sourcing for a cab later this year.

[rockaroller]

I am in the market for a DC VGA Box.
The official Sega ones seem to be very rare and often pricey once found.
On eBay, I see a lot of 3rd party boxes at a good price.
Does anybody have experience with the 3rd party boxes? I am skeptical of some.

Here is a link to the current ebay listings, if anybody could give me some input on these 3rd party boxes I would greatly appreciate it:


http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dl ... amcast+vga

I already have a nice arcade stick built. I have a few extra monitors laying around, so I'd like to build a nice little temporary DC arcade setup for now until I can start sourcing for a cab later this year.

When I still had my DC, I once had one. It worked fine, just as you would expect it to do. It even could boot-up imports/backups w/ the utopia boot disc. I think the name was "Treamcast" or so. Go for it, you won't regret.

EDIT: this one also works fine.

[Franz the Stampede]

This is a rather interesting topic. I have the original SEGA VGA box and a VGA cable (just one cable that has a male for DC, a female VGA and a very small box in the middle with a 3.5mm outout for sound) and the difference was really small if any.

I believe there is some sort of big misunderstanding about Dreamcast VGA boxes. The reason it's a "box" is to allow switching between a TV and a monitor without having to unplug anything. VGA boxes usually feature one one side
- VGA out with 3.5mm stereo out for sound

on the other
- S-video out for a telly
- 2 (red & white) RCA out for sound
- 1 (yellow) RCA out for composhit video

Therefore, the "box" is just to allow all these options. Correct if I'm wrong but being DC able to output VGA normally, the box does not do any upscanning, conversion, nothign special at all. That's why I think the quality of the box is not too relevant, the DC itself does the job, therefore one shouldn't necessarily expect a better quality from a VGA box over a VGA cable.

I reckon, though, that the sound output of the original SEGA VGA box is REALLy good quality.

[Specineff]

Agreed. The VGA boxes out there are also audio amps to allow for headphone output and what not.

This is a barebones VGA cord (which works perfectly, I can vouch for it) with a 3.5 mm stereo jack, unamplified. Unfortunately it's out of stock.

http://www.jandaman.com/games.mvc?p=dcv ... ry_code=DC

BTW, Jandaman has usually better prices than Evilbay, and top service. Highly recommended. They will NOT charge 20 bucks to ship a 12 dollar item. Go with them.

EDIT: A HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA!:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sega-Dreamcast-VGA- ... dZViewItem

[ktownhero]

This is a rather interesting topic. I have the original SEGA VGA box and a VGA cable (just one cable that has a male for DC, a female VGA and a very small box in the middle with a 3.5mm outout for sound) and the difference was really small if any.

I believe there is some sort of big misunderstanding about Dreamcast VGA boxes. The reason it's a "box" is to allow switching between a TV and a monitor without having to unplug anything. VGA boxes usually feature one one side
- VGA out with 3.5mm stereo out for sound

on the other
- S-video out for a telly
- 2 (red & white) RCA out for sound
- 1 (yellow) RCA out for composhit video

Therefore, the "box" is just to allow all these options. Correct if I'm wrong but being DC able to output VGA normally, the box does not do any upscanning, conversion, nothign special at all. That's why I think the quality of the box is not too relevant, the DC itself does the job, therefore one shouldn't necessarily expect a better quality from a VGA box over a VGA cable.

I reckon, though, that the sound output of the original SEGA VGA box is REALLy good quality.

Hey thanks for the great response (to this person and the others). I was thinking exactly what you wrote, but I'm glad to have some further corroboration. I think I like the idea of the VGA boxes with optional tv/audio outs though. I'm going to keep my eye out for one of those at a decent price.

[ktownhero]

http://www.jandaman.com/games.mvc?p=dcv ... ry_code=DC

BTW, Jandaman has usually better prices than Evilbay, and top service. Highly recommended. They will NOT charge 20 bucks to ship a 12 dollar item. Go with them.

E

Hey thanks for the link to that guy's site, he has a vga box IN STOCK for only $18 shipped! Ordered already!

[Franz the Stampede]

I think I like the idea of the VGA boxes with optional tv/audio outs though. I'm going to keep my eye out for one of those at a decent price.

Yeah, it's a nice option, but bear in mind you won't get anything better than S-video out of a vga box (for normal TV sets, of course). If you've used RGB scart with your DC, so far, and you are a "only the best is good enough" kind of person, you will notice the difference.

[iatneH]

A friend of mine bought a VGA box from Jandaman. Good service and pricing, it's just the shipping story was pretty funny.

I think Jandaman has a PO box in Point Roberts which is a tiny patch of US territory in Canada... well not really in Canada since it's US, but you know what I mean. Probably for customs reasons.

His home address is like 3 blocks away from my friend's house. My buddy put in an order and paid for the shipping and all, and then I think Jandaman must have walked over and delivered it by hand. So even though the shipping cost is pretty reasonable, he got a big profit off the shipping on that one

A different story of my own is that the famous (infamous?) eBay seller yaton6262 lives about a 45 minute drive away from my home. I've bought a few MVS carts from him off eBay, but at least he did send them through the post

[D]

I think I like the idea of the VGA boxes with optional tv/audio outs though. I'm going to keep my eye out for one of those at a decent price.

Yeah, it's a nice option, but bear in mind you won't get anything better than S-video out of a vga box (for normal TV sets, of course). If you've used RGB scart with your DC, so far, and you are a "only the best is good enough" kind of person, you will notice the difference.

I have one of those 99$ ones, haha
But, what makes the bga boxes special is that you can trick your DC into displaying so called non-vga games in vga mode. I unfortunately only have the cable.
There is a big difference between 480i and 480p. But if you indeed don't have an vga input on your tv, I wouldn't recommend it unless you wanna play on your pc monitor.
99 bucks? Was that already posted in the ridiculous ebay auctions thread?

[iatneH]

But, what makes the bga boxes special is that you can trick your DC into displaying so called non-vga games in vga mode. I unfortunately only have the cable.

It's still possible to force VGA mode using the cable, but there's some guesswork involved.

First you have to boot up the DC with the cable unplugged. You have to listen to the drive and plug the cable back in when the white screen with the "Licensed by" (SEGA logo) is displaying... or should be displaying, rather, since you can't see it when the cable isn't plugged in.

[iatneH]

The VGA cable trick has the same shortfalls as the VGA box trick, since it's basically operating on the same principle of shorting out the RGB+VGA flags after the disc has already been authenticated, so games such as Gunbird & Bangai-O still will not display properly.

[ktownhero]

Could you explain the trick?

[iatneH]

The trick is for games which do not support VGA mode, and it goes something like this:

This is for VGA boxes which have a switch for selecting TV output or monitor output.

Boot the game with the VGA box set to TV output. Then, after the game is authenticated, when the white screen with the Sega logo should be displaying, flip the switch to VGA output. The game should run normally and also be displaying on your VGA monitor.

It works the same way using the cable, but instead of flipping a switch, you plug in the cable.

[D]

The trick is for games which do not support VGA mode, and it goes something like this:

This is for VGA boxes which have a switch for selecting TV output or monitor output.

Boot the game with the VGA box set to TV output. Then, after the game is authenticated, when the white screen with the Sega logo should be displaying, flip the switch to VGA output. The game should run normally and also be displaying on your VGA monitor.

It works the same way using the cable, but instead of flipping a switch, you plug in the cable.

Wow, iatneH, thanks for that tip.
Being at work and all, so I can't test this right away.
Games like Tokyo Xtreme racer 2 and Ferrari F355 have wide screen modes. But when you boot these games with a VGA cable the options don't work anymore. If you do this trick, could it mean that the dc doesn't think you're running in vga mode and therefor have the widescreen option enabled? That would be so awesome!
Thanks, you rule

[Franz the Stampede]

I have one of those 99$ ones, haha
But, what makes the bga boxes special is that you can trick your DC into displaying so called non-vga games in vga mode. I unfortunately only have the cable.
There is a big difference between 480i and 480p. But if you indeed don't have an vga input on your tv, I wouldn't recommend it unless you wanna play on your pc monitor.
99 bucks? Was that already posted in the ridiculous ebay auctions thread?

on the other hand, there's a handful of games (mainly 2D fighters) who do support VGA box but look ugly as sin with it because they are in low-res. Sometimes interlaced can be good. Sometimes...

[tassian]

It works the same way using the cable, but instead of flipping a switch, you plug in the cable.

There're two "data lines" in the DC's A/V jack which determine the video output mode. There's actually a very clever "internal VGA mod" out there which lets you do a "VGA hack" that works with almost every non-VGA game and tricks it into VGA mode. The only exception I know of is Bangai-O and one other game. You can find the instructions for this mod under this link. I've modded two of my Dreamcasts with the internal VGA mod and the VGA switch. It works like a charm. Ok, you really need to be experienced with soldering but the mod (next to the VGA hack switch) is really worth it. The costs for the needed components are less than 15€. And you get real 480p natively without any upscaling. Playing Ikaruga in 480p on a tated VGA CRT just rocks.

[D]

It works the same way using the cable, but instead of flipping a switch, you plug in the cable.

There're two "data lines" in the DC's A/V jack which determine the video output mode. There's actually a very clever "internal VGA mod" out there which lets you do a "VGA hack" that works with almost every non-VGA game and tricks it into VGA mode. The only exception I know of is Bangai-O and one other game. You can find the instructions for this mod under this link. I've modded two of my Dreamcasts with the internal VGA mod and the VGA switch. It works like a charm. Ok, you really need to be experienced with soldering but the mod (next to the VGA hack switch) is really worth it. The costs for the needed components are less than 15€. And you get real 480p natively without any upscaling. Playing Ikaruga in 480p on a tated VGA CRT just rocks.

Don't mean to bust your modding balls or anything, but why mod something that you can have a vga box do?
I am not against modding or anything, in fact I encourage it, but what purpose is this mod then? Perhaps I overlooked something.
Oh and I have to say this with capitals.
INTERLACED IS NEVER GOOD IN ANY CASE, NEVER. INTERLACED IS GAY.

[tassian]

The internal mod has this particular VGA hack switch which distinguishes it from most VGA boxes. If you look at the diagram in the linked page you can see that there's a three way switch that connects to the two VGA select data lines. Most VGA boxes that I know of do one of the following two things: (a) connect both VGA select lines to GND and thus put the DC into normal VGA mode (those boxes don't have S-Video out or anything, just VGA + audio) (b) provide a switch which lets you select either VGA (both select lines are connected to GND) or pure video out (neither select line is connected to GND). The mod provides a third option where only one select line is connected to GND and one isn't. Please don't ask me what exactly this achieves, but when you start the DC with a non-VGA game in "VGA hack mode" and then switch to VGA after you heard the DC's swirl jingle, you have VGA mode in almost every case. I've had a 100% success rate except with Bangai-O. So, despite the fact that an internal VGA mod is very manly and extremely cool, the VGA hack mode is the key feature of this mod.

[zakk]

If I remember right, when only one of the select pins is grounded you get 15khz RGB.

This
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-h7-49-en-70-2a.html actually has a 3 way switch on it (assuming it's the same one I have, and it looks like it is). No idea where you can find them right now, though.

[tassian]

Yes, I believe you're right. One of the data lines is the 15kHz select line.

[iatneH]

http://www.gamesx.com/grafx/dricas.gif
I made a VGA cable following this a number of years ago. Only used 10 pins altogether on the connector. Skipped the IC, and just needed 3 capacitors for the RGB lines and 2 resistors for the sync lines.

Pins 6 and 7 were tied to GND right at the connector. It's not labeled here, but I believe pin 7 should be the RGB select.

[zakk]

Out of curiosity, what type of video mode do NAOMI games have?

I know you can play Under Defeat in RGB and VGA, but which type of video mode is closer to the Arcade NAOMI version?

NAOMI offers both. Obviously most serious operators run games in VGA.

[icepick]

So I guess VGA is better, but not all DC games run in 480p mode, so do they still run the games in VGA mode even if the game does not support VGA 480p mode?

If a game does not support VGA mode, then the system will give you a message about the software not supporting the video cable connected and bring you back to the main menu... so, no, games not supporting VGA/480p will not continue to run in VGA/480p mode.

Wouldn't RGB be a better choice in this case?

Yes, RGB would probably be the best signal if you didn't want to swap cables and/or displays for different games... but, VGA is incredible on games that support it. Therein lies the rub, or however that saying goes.

Furthermore, I can't say whether or not VGA support is tied with RGB support, as RGB support on displays seems practically nonexistant in the US. I feel like games that do not support VGA will also not support RGB, but then, RGB seems to be the standard in Europe, so why wouldn't the European Bangai-O support RGB? I'll have to look into this.

Ah, according to this page, indeed certain games have "RGB support removed":

NTSC-uk Import/Tech Import Hardware FAQ

I've heard a lot that the best all-around connection would be S-video, and this is probably why. Switching from VGA to S-video for games that don't support VGA is not a big deal though, although I always think about how I remember reading in the manual that one is not supposed to remove a cable from the AV port unless absolutely necessary, since it could be worn out. I don't know why I think that, but it seems like sound advice for any type of connection.

In this case, it's a simple flip of the switch on a VGA box, or... maybe have two DCs? Ha, ha.

[D]

vga for everybody
rgb for Europe
s-video for US
This is getting old.

[Franz the Stampede]

vga for everybody
rgb for Europe
s-video for US
This is getting old.

But it still doesn't explain why and how some guys came out with YPbPr...

[iatneH]

So I guess VGA is better, but not all DC games run in 480p mode, so do they still run the games in VGA mode even if the game does not support VGA 480p mode?

If a game does not support VGA mode, then the system will give you a message about the software not supporting the video cable connected and bring you back to the main menu... so, no, games not supporting VGA/480p will not continue to run in VGA/480p mode.

Hence the VGA bootup trick. Now, sometimes it will boot the games and get you past the message, but some games still don't display properly.

[Strider77]

couldn't i use a scart cable and rewire that for an xrgb (i have done this many times before) and then be able to play anything that way threw it (the xrgb).

[tassian]

Yes, that should work with all RGB enabled games (most NTSC-J games should be). However, this will obviously not give you the full quality of VGA enabled games that run in 480p -- then again, you can easily play those with a VGA box or cable anyhow.

EDIT: Doesn't the XRGB2 even support weird refresh rates etc. via RGB in? If so, maybe you could even integrate a switch into the modded scart cable that switches the output between VGA and RGB.

[Strider77]

an xrgb2 won't pass through progressive signals in the rgb port

[ktownhero]

Holy poop. I got that VGA Box today and WOW does it make a big difference. Now I fully understand why DC games are considered "arcade perfect." This machine was so far ahead of its time, it is ridiculous.