What does it take to appreciate Garegga?

[tehkao]

I've been trying to figure out the popularity of this shmup...and I just can't figure it out...

The graphics look average...even subpar...every stage looks like it only has 3 or 4 colors.

The boss designs are rather...uninspired. The 2nd boss is just a bunch of round things...the 3rd boss is like a big rectangle that shoots missles at you.

I must say the music is outstanding though. Probably one of the best shmup soundtracks I've heard.

Is there FAQ somewhere that "explains" the hidden beauty behind Battle Garegga? Because it just doesn't seem to be very "appealing" in a conventional shmup sense.

[brokendivide]

I don't think there is a general 'likable' shmup convention. A lot of people like cave games for example, and may not like slower things like R-Type. And vice versa. Tastes differ, so you may just not like garegga.

Though I think it just takes time to appreciate it. Like many shmups. Read up about it go back and play it and if you still don't like it after trying to get better at it, then well, maybe you just don't like it is all, nothing wrong with that.

Looking at the border down thread, some don't 'get' that game either. Seems like a similar thing here. Maybe.

FAQs in the strategy forum:

Icarus' ST

Rank

[Randorama]

Iblah

Gameplay?Have you ever heard of this word? I suppose not.

Is there FAQ somewhere that "explains" the hidden beauty behind Battle Garegga? Because it just doesn't seem to be very "appealing" in a conventional shmup sense.

There's an entire section called "Stretegy", which also has a thread dedicated to Garegga's mechanics. But well, please see comment above...

[CMoon]

For me, what I love about Garegga is what Icarus said in another thread--it is the freedom of Garegga. No game is ever the same, and there is a looseness to it that I love (this same looseness shows up in a lot of Raizing games (and surprise, Compile games as well) and it is part of what makes their games different. Although Garegga might feel like a manic, it doesn't use so many of the cave type walls of bullets but rather is sort of like Raiden on crack with millions of smart bullets with occasional walls of bullets. I really feel like Garegga is the logical extension of some of the older shmups but with the intensity of newer shmups. I've put a lot of time into this game, but am lacking the skill to beat it. Nonetheless, when I get up to level 5 on my 1cc, I feel that this game has a unique feel and fun factor that clearly places it in the top 10. There are a lot of other games that I love that it would be hard to say 'top 10' with certainty, but I think there is no question of Garegga. If I have any question about this game and Raizing it is how people vote Batrider or Souky over this. Souky is a great game, but not NEARLY as good as garegga.

[freddiebamboo]

I just HATE the rank system of the game

And obviously the bullets

It's testament to its gameplay tho that so many love this game despite it's failings

[D]

OK, which shmup (with 2D graphics) on a console looks better than Battle Garegga then?

waiting................


Offcourse you do have to play it TATE'd on a tv WITH an RGB cable for monitor style clear graphics.
This way the graphics are crisp like in the arcade.
I guess rgb is only available to us europeans via a SCART connector.

Japan has got the greatest games.
Europe has got the best picture quality.
US has cheaper prices.

[CMoon]

I just HATE the rank system of the game

And obviously the bullets

It's testament to its gameplay tho that so many love this game despite it's failings

Rank system aside, you can turn a lot of the bullets into orange balls.

I'm not sure I consider the bullets or the rank to be failings--they are both artistic choices and really, Garegga wouldn't be the game it is without either.

[Neon]

what Randorama said.

[Ganelon]

Rank system aside, you can turn a lot of the bullets into orange balls.

Well, most of the bullets in any case. Small missiles and anything larger are still left intact as what they are.

Anyway, Battle Garegga does help you train your eye and focus. Get used to the ordinary enemy bullets in this game and you won't have trouble seeing stray bullets anywhere else.

As for the visuals, the sprites themselves may be very well designed but colors are definitely drab. It's predominantly green/brown regardless of your output. There are indeed many shades of said green/brown but I think he's talking about color variety here, which Battle Garegga doesn't offer a lot of, similar to many other pseudo-modern shooters.

I just can't stand the default hit box. The small one makes the game a lot more interesting IMO.

[CMoon]

I just can't stand the default hit box. The small one makes the game a lot more interesting IMO.

Another vote for small hit box!

As far as colorful vs drap...there's lots of colorful shmups and lots of drab shmups. I mean, even the raidens aren't particularly colorful.

Actually, Ikaruga isn't colorful. Is anyone complaining?

[BulletMagnet]

I don't think you need to be crazy about a shmup to "appreciate" it: I consider Garegga as flawed as any other shmup, but I still appreciate it for what it does. Yes, the color palette is definitely stuck in the neutral-tone area, but there is also a ton of detail (some might say too much, since near-invisible bullets can get lost in enemy shrapnel and explosions), and the dreary environments give the game lots of personality; although I overall like the gameplay of the sequel Battle Bakraid better, even though the latter's graphics are more colorful than Garegga's, the environments are horribly generic, and the game, despite its strengths, never really has any discernable "aura" about it. Garegga is dark, dirty, and cold, and while it may not be "attractive" in the traditional sense, it's still quite immersive if you give it a chance.

I don't personally like the invisible bullets or ranking system either, but the former can be corrected in the Saturn version (if you can find/afford it), and the latter's more or less a personal preference in gameplay style. In spite of that, I can still play Garegga, as well as other Raizing shmups in its vein, and enjoy them, even if I don't rave about every fiber of their being.

[TVG]

OK, which shmup (with 2D graphics) on a console looks better than Battle Garegga then?

waiting................

waiting what? to post on the "post message" button?
that made no sense.

if ive made a thread for every game i dont like, man...

[tehkao]

and the dreary environments give the game lots of personality

I dunno...that kinda sounds like you're trying just a bit too hard to like something?...

I guess since we're all shmup fans here we try very hard to find the good in every shmup, but it just seems to me Garegga wasn't designed to appeal to "casual" shmup players.

[sven666]

i actually like the rank system in raizing games, i think it gives the games a strategic edge gameplaywise over the competition of mindless blasters (just an expression to prove my point)..

and whats this about the graphics.. garegga looks fuckin good man! just check out the detail in the stages.. dont forget, this game is pretty old so its unfair to compare it to more recent shmups...

[Rastan78]

Why do so many here have to be such damn connoisseurs. The truth is if 99% of us here were actually playing a game like Garegga in a Japanese arcade with skilled players watching, we would probably be laughed at. Sorry to Rando, DEL and others. I know there are those here with insane skillz, but you rarely hear them coming on to say, "Such and such game did not meet my expectations because explosions were a bit too pixelly, game used polys and not sprites etc. etc."

Just as a disclaimer, I do consider myself more of a casual player, and I'm not trying to say we all have to be playing like Yusemi or TAC to appreciate a game and form our own opinions. We just have to remember that games from companies like Raizing or Cave are targetted at people who are playing at a high level in the arcades trying to compete for high scores and master every nuance of the game. After all that's where the quarters (okay, 100 yen) come from.

So, the key to appreciating a game like B.G. might be to respect the fact that many aspects of the game are going over your head and that it's not that fun to play a game that is utterly destroying you (as it does to me also). The reward and fun comes from when you improve your score or learn to survive a difficult section. Not trying to flame here, just trying to say maybe approach the game with a little humility and just focus on rising to the challenge more so then analyzing the presentation.

[BulletMagnet]

I dunno...that kinda sounds like you're trying just a bit too hard to like something?...

Don't see why, an atmosphere doesn't have to be bright or colorful to be effective; heck, not all atmospheres ARE as such. If you're gonna do a cold, bleak industrial setting you're not going to throw a rainbow palette in there. Garegga isn't a "flashy" game, at least not to the extent of a lot of other shmups, and as such I think that a rather non-flashy setting works in its favor. Of course, personal taste, as always, is a big part of it, but I've never viewed Garegga's graphics (aside from the invisible bullets, anyways) as one of its weaknesses.

[tehkao]

Not trying to flame here, just trying to say maybe approach the game with a little humility and just focus on rising to the challenge more so then analyzing the presentation.

Well that's what I'm wondering...does Garegga possess some sort of challenge or gameplay that can't be found in any other shmup?

Because if there's another shmup with better presentation than Garegga(which isn't hard to find), as well as offering a great challenge and deep scoring system, why wouldn't I just play that?

[tehkao]

Ok I just read Icarus's faq...I think I can see the attraction of this game now...it does seem to have a lot of complexity hidden under the surface....

[thesuperkillerxxx]

Where to begin???

invisi-bullets? when was the last time you could see the bullet being fired from a gun? do you have a gun that shoots pink bullets? Can [edit]YOU change bullet colors in the real world?[/edit]

Poor boss design? I guess Black Heart is not the perfect nemesis boss that I thought it was... Glow Squid popping out of the rolling carrier is absolute perfect.

I am too disgusted to continue....

Battle Garegga is PERFECT

Yes I said Perfect

[CMoon]

Just as a disclaimer, I do consider myself more of a casual player, and I'm not trying to say we all have to be playing like Yusemi or TAC to appreciate a game and form our own opinions....

So, the key to appreciating a game like B.G. might be to respect the fact that many aspects of the game are going over your head and that it's not that fun to play a game that is utterly destroying you (as it does to me also).

I'm sure I am not a much better player than you, and I can get to level 5 on 1cc. What do you want out of a shmup? A lot of shmups require incredible skills to 1cc them and if I only limited my list of games I loved to ones I could 1cc it would be a very, very short list. Being able to get to level 5 is better than I can do in a lot of shmups.

I just don't get it...

[sven666]

I just don't get it...

so why not go with it.. youre all acting as if you overlooked the FUN "on/off" toggle switch

some people dont like certain games, plain and simple, i for one am not a big Cave fan which moste people think is crazy...

ED: brilliant! i quoted the wrong person aww fuck it, im sure my point will get across anyhoo..

[CMoon]

ED: brilliant! i quoted the wrong person aww fuck it, im sure my point will get across anyhoo..

[Icarus]

Given that the game is about eight years old, I'm not surprised the graphics look dated.

Given that the game is meant to give off an atmosphere of old prop-based war machines, rusting war factories, an almost alternate WWII-style historical setting (with a few jets and oversized tanks here and there), I'm not surprised that the game looks all dark, monochrome almost, and muddy.

Given that the game is designed to be semi-realistic in presentation, I'm not surprised that the bullets are small, and actually bullet shaped, as opposed to the clouds of pink death seen in a lot of recent games.

A lot of games might have nicer, crisper, more attractive presentation than Garegga, but I don't think any game lately has the same kind of "soul" that Garegga has. There's a feel to it that I just can't describe in words, but it is something that makes Garegga what it is, and I don't think the game would be the same without presentation of this kind.

I've already said a lot of things about Garegga in this thread, starting from this post, with reasons why I love Garegga. Reasons why I believe Garegga was designed the way it was. Theories and reasons to try and debunk the myths surrounding the rank system that many players either love, or hate. Please take a few minutes to have a quick read, and maybe contribute to the thread.

No one, not me, not any other member here, can make you love Garegga. The only way you'll find out for yourself what makes this game so beautiful is if you devote your undivided attention to learning it, forsaking all other games. I'll admit that Garegga isn't really designed with the casual shmupper, the player who likes a quick fix or a purer gaming experience in mind. Garegga is a game that is designed to appeal to players who are willing to spend a lot of time learning it, experimenting with it, studying it.

Part of it's beauty lies with it's depth. Garegga presents you with a few toys. First, it gives you a few means of scoring points - use Shot on this propellor gives you x points, use Weapon on this castle to release pink flamingoes etc etc - but you are given the choice of whether or not to go for them. You are set against a slowly inceasing rank counter, but are given a few tools to surpress it's increase, giving you control over how hard the game can get.
What Garegga is essentially making you do is come up with a strategy "on-the-fly" so to speak: the game is saying "I'm going to get harder as you progress, but I'll give you a chance. I'll give you a few tricks and tools to keep my difficulty from increasing too much. How and when you use these tools is entirely up to you." Very few games if any give you the ability to totally improvise as Garegga does.

The only thing I'll ask is, if you do decide to absorb yourself in the Garegga experience, try your best to make it to Black Heart (the stage 5 boss), and master him. Then come here, and let me know if the battles with Black Heart and his bigger brother Black Heart Mark2 aren't the most exhilirating, pulse-pounding battles you've ever experienced.

[professor ganson]

Icarus, this is very eloquent and thoughtful, actually. I have always been put off by the difficulty of seeing those small bullets, but I've been trying to give Garegga another chance recently and the game has really impressed. At first the look of the game disappointed me, but now I'm finding the overall aesthetic quite a draw, and you bring out nicely what is distinctive and interesting about its appearance. Still, I find it hard to progress because smoke and shrapnel routinely camouflage those slender but deadly bullets. Does this aspect of the game ever get easier to deal with with more practice?

[Rastan78]

I'm sure I am not a much better player than you, and I can get to level 5 on 1cc. What do you want out of a shmup? A lot of shmups require incredible skills to 1cc them and if I only limited my list of games I loved to ones I could 1cc it would be a very, very short list. Being able to get to level 5 is better than I can do in a lot of shmups.

I just don't get it...

Well, the thread was asking what the best way to appreciate Garegga was. I'm not trying to say there's some cut off point for how good you have to be to enjoy it. I'm not very good at Garegga myself. Usually get to about level 5, yeah I'll probably never 1cc. I think I'm talking more about the way people approach a game regardless of their skill level.

Going a little off topic, I remember when Capcom vs. SNK 2 first came out and you'd hear people bitching about how Morrigan's sprite had been reused, it's too pixellated and on and on. Then you see the guy who's been really working on his tactics with Morrigan and he's getting a win streak, breaking out big combos on people etc. Strangely, he doesn't seem to care that her sprite hasn't been redrawn and seems to be having some good competition anyway. I can't help but feeling like the guy who's always complaining about how a certain background was too bland or whatever is missing out on all the fun.

Yeah, if you've tried your hardest and a game just still doesn't do it for you, then move on to something else. Just don't forget that there's a lot of enjoyment to be had in the challenge and learning curve department, not just in graphics and soundtracks. Shooters are one of those things where you get out of it what you put into it. I think that applies whether you can easilly 1cc a game and are going for higher score or whether you're new at gaming and just trying to get a little farther each time. To me that's the whole point, playing instead of nitpicking every game that comes out and then only playing it for like one week anyway.

[Icarus]

Still, I find it hard to progress because smoke and shrapnel routinely camouflage those slender but deadly bullets. Does this aspect of the game ever get easier to deal with with more practice?

Definitely. Like I said before, the game requires your undivided attention, both while playing and in training your senses. If you learn what to watch out for, you can ignore all the other distractions. If anything, learning to play Garegga can (in some ways) improve your abilities in shmupping: since the bullets are a lot smaller and a bit harder to see, you're pushing yourself to learn to survey the ENTIRE playfield, to spot the threats quickly, and to recognise the patterns and safezones in seemingly difficult waves of shells, explosions and distractions. All it takes is a bit of practice.

Funnily enough, at one time I devoted almost a year to Garegga alone. At the end of that training period, I popped in Soukyugurentai during one session, and was instantly annihilated by a large round bullet. Training to spot small bullets means you will very often be thrown off by a huge round one (or a small pink one) when you make a gameshift

[professor ganson]

Encouraging and interesting remarks. Thanks much.

[raiden]

Still, I find it hard to progress because smoke and shrapnel routinely camouflage those slender but deadly bullets. Does this aspect of the game ever get easier to deal with with more practice?

of course it does. But there are a few things you can do to make it easier from the get-go:
- play in tate
- play in RGB
- sit close to the screen
- if it helps you, turn the red ball option on
- turn the wait option on
- use planes with the small hitzone. Later, you might want to switch back to the big hitzone to collect medals easier, but when starting out, the small hitzone makes it much easier.

[tehkao]

Wow, never before have I seen this much rabid fanaticism about a shmup. It's as if people would go to any lengths in order to "enjoy" it.

If only other shmups would get this kind of respect and treatment....

[Icarus]

Wow, never before have I seen this much rabid fanaticism about a shmup. It's as if people would go to any lengths in order to "enjoy" it.

It has nothing to do with rabid fanaticism, and everything to do with enjoying and respecting a game for being greater than the sum of it's parts. If players would look beyond the (admittedly) dated external presentation and go deeper, they would find gameplay complex and involving. It's at that point that Garegga sinks it's claws in and doesn't let go.

Then again, there are players who just want a pretty game to look at, and ignore deep gameplay. More power to them.