What you dont particualy like in shooters

SheSaidDutch · Post by **SheSaidDutch** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:15 pm

Sorry If this has been done before

I've been thinking and I just thought I needed to get this off my chest and see what everyone's opinions are on:_what you find maybe minor or rather big Annoyances in shmups, which could be anything from weapons, gameplay, graphic style etc.........

Cutscenes inbetween the levels- To me I see no need and It breaks the game up somewhat IMO

Too much anime- Thats in the game,I have a love/hate relationship with anime, I dont mind some minor but please not a full game.

Pre-rendrended/Digitalised graphics- I dont see the appeal myself, I'd take hand-drawn sprites anyday.

I'll probably think of more....

dboeren · Post by **dboeren** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:18 pm

1. Bullets that are hard to see (Raizing is a common offender here)

2. Missiles with smoke trails (Raiden Fighters 2 has these)

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:56 pm

Enemies that come up from the bottom of the screen

Far too confusing...

zimeon · Post by **zimeon** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:06 pm

When you lose all your power-ups when you die.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:14 pm

dboeren wrote:2. Missiles with smoke trails (Raiden Fighters 2 has these)

Just out of curiosity, why is that an issue?

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:14 pm

As I said in the "little things" thread:

Not being able to see your score at the end of the game.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:29 pm

In many verts the screen still scrolls horizontally when you move left and right. Annoying, as enemies often in the playing field are often hidden from screen, can sometimes fire at you even when they're not visible (though that's pretty rare), but it still makes it easy for you to ram into them or for them to fire point-blank at you. Not so bad in Cave games, but Raidens and many older verts have a playing field almost twice as long horizontally than the visible area.

In many older shmups (which I otherwise like) it's not too uncommon to be able to sit at the bottom/left side of the screen and just hold the fire button down for the first three or four levels, very little movement is required. Then if you die at a later level and lose the most powerful weapon in the game it's easy to lose your remaining lives in a matter of minutes.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:32 pm

Heh heh, guess my "little things" topic has a little brother.

1) Rank systems which I've heard referred to as "arcane" here on the board, namely a rank system which you are more or less required to make a conscious effort to control (usually by purposely doing worse) in order to have a shot at making it through the game. The concept in itself is distasteful enough to me, but the fact that it's almost never explained outright exactly what you need to do, leaving many players in the dark, irritates me even more.

2) Places in a shmup where something in the "foreground" completely obscures what's going on on the playfield: the overpasses in Batrider are one example. You think hard-to-see bullets are frustrating? Spots like this where bullets are literally invisible are simply the paramount in bad game design as far as I'm concerned. To a lesser extent I might mention the lightning flashes in Dimahoo stage 2, which more or less obscure the light yellow/white bullets for the instant they activate, which is more than enough time to kill you.

3) "Power down" items. Seriously, I have enough to worry about in avoiding enemies and bullets, now I have to avoid picking up certain items? Salamander 2 frustrates me to no end on this, since after you pick up 2 of an item (missile, laser, etc.) if you pick up a third of that item it powers you down. What happened to just giving me an extra thousand points or something? I could also mention Space Megaforce to some extent, because if you're stuck in a tight spot where you're more or less forced to pick up a weapon which doesn't work well for the area you're in, you'd better start praying (or bombing, or both).

4) Power-ups which REFUSE to come down to the lower half of the screen in a vert. A lot of Psikyo games drive me nuts with this: if I'm shot down and a couple of my powerups float over to the top of the screen, they STAY there, and unless I'm willing either to sacrifice a bomb or risk being mercilessly point-blanked, I'm probably going to be stuck with a pea-shooter for awhile. More than once I'll rush to the top of the screen in attempt to re-power myself while I'm still invincible after dying, only to be killed again just as my invincibility runs out.

Guess I'll stop here for now, since a lot of the other stuff I could think of would just be saying the opposite of something mentioned on the "little things" thread.

Strychnine · Post by **Strychnine** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:47 pm

Retarded ranking systems that force you to kill yourself.

Unbalanced Bosses and Levels; by which I mean that either the level is ridiculously easy in comparison to the boss, or the boss is ridiculously easy in comparison to the level. I am more forgiving of the former, cuz I mean, its the fucking BOSS.

Kiel · Post by **Kiel** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:47 pm

A weak power up system when even when you are maxed out your shot still seems underpowered.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:06 pm

Enemies that wander on from the side of the screen and instantly shoot you when they appear. See the Raiden series (mostly the earlier games).

SheSaidDutch · Post by **SheSaidDutch** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:08 pm

[quote="BulletMagnet"]Heh heh, guess my "little things" topic has a little bro

I was going to post in your "little things"topic, but I wasn't sure If some things I didn't like were "little things" or more a greater Annoyances

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:14 pm

Heh, no problem in creating a new topic, just be careful, as following my example too often can't be a good sign.

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:19 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
4) Power-ups which REFUSE to come down to the lower half of the screen in a vert. A lot of Psikyo games drive me nuts with this: if I'm shot down and a couple of my powerups float over to the top of the screen, they STAY there, and unless I'm willing either to sacrifice a bomb or risk being mercilessly point-blanked, I'm probably going to be stuck with a pea-shooter for awhile. More than once I'll rush to the top of the screen in attempt to re-power myself while I'm still invincible after dying, only to be killed again just as my invincibility runs out.

I actually don't mind this. In most shmups, the power-ups are basically given to you since there's no challenge in picking them up. The game may as well just power up your ship without having to throw power-up items at you, since they are impossible to avoid anyway. So if there's a little challenge in it I don't mind. Maybe I'll actually MISS one once in a while.

dboeren · Post by **dboeren** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:44 pm

2. Missiles with smoke trails (Raiden Fighters 2 has these)
Just out of curiosity, why is that an issue?

Because they usually obscure the screen too much. I guess I would have no issue with a small smoke trail, one that was thin and only X pixels long.

In Raiden Fighters 2, there are missiles that leave a smoke trail covering half the length of the screen. Also, some planes have a charged missile attack which spews out dozens of missile, and EACH ONE has a screen-obscuring smoke trail. That is one reason why for almost all RF2 ships I opt to take the laser powerups instead of the missile powerups.

How about:
3. Games where it takes too many powerups to be competitive

There are a number of games where after you die once, you will lose the rest of your lives very soon as you can't recover enough powerups to survive. Or games like Truxton where you only upgrade your weapons after every 5 powerups or something like that. It takes forever to get off the starting peashooter!

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:22 pm

Dying because you hit the 'background'.

BorderDown had a nice solution to this with a few warning scrapes before you actually blew up...

Stormwatch · Post by **Stormwatch** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:44 pm

Non-instant respawn - the reason why I don't like most horis. Border Down is easy enough to make it acceptable, but I can't bear playing R-Type and Pulstar after the first level because of that!

Devilsheep · Post by **Devilsheep** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:52 pm

Stormwatch wrote:Non-instant respawn - the reason why I don't like most horis. Border Down is easy enough to make it acceptable, but I can't bear playing R-Type and Pulstar after the first level because of that!

Haha I hate that too, but some games would be too easy without it.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:19 pm

Devilsheep wrote:Haha I hate that too, but some games would be too easy without it.

Or too hard...in some "non-respawn" cases the levels are designed so that there are at least a couple of powerups near the restart checkpoints for you to get back on your feet if you die...instant respawn would result in "Salamander 2 Syndrome," namely being stuck in an area where there's nothing to help you get back on track after dying once.

Devilsheep · Post by **Devilsheep** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:23 pm

Yeah that's true as well, good point.

I don't think I've completely finished playing Salamander 2 anyways...I'll have to see what you're talking about.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:39 pm

not having a Ranking option, so i can see the the high score table straight away. sorry if this has been said, didn't read the above.

shiftace · Post by **shiftace** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:01 pm

dboeren wrote:2. Missiles with smoke trails (Raiden Fighters 2 has these)

Heh... there's this weapon in Tyrian called Guided Microbombs. It's basically homing shots with a moderate fire rate. Thing is, they have smoke trails a couple times the size of your ship, and at max power they fire eight ways. At once.

I can't see a damn thing with that weapon.

Not even my own ship, when it's holding still.

And it's a weak weapon, to boot.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:05 am

I dislike it when games have scoring systems that are so complex and filled with so many little tricks that you can't zone in because you're thinking about scoring so much.

I also dislike rank systems that practically force you to suicide if you want to clear the game.

The Bullet Dodger · Post by **The Bullet Dodger** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:38 am

I wish I didn't have to get all the weapons and upgrades all over again when I die in the Gradius series (especially in Gradius V!). Such a pain in the ass!

black mariah · Post by **black mariah** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:38 am

I hate it when running into enemies kills you in manic shooters. Giga Wing is especially bad about this one. I understand why it's done, I expect it in trad shmups (1942, Raiden), but in manics it's just overkill.

whoisKeel · Post by **whoisKeel** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:52 am

black mariah wrote:I hate it when running into enemies kills you in manic shooters. Giga Wing is especially bad about this one. I understand why it's done, I expect it in trad shmups (1942, Raiden), but in manics it's just overkill.

That only bothers me when some of them kill you (air enemies) and some of them don't (ground enemies), it gets a bit confusing for me.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:54 am

Really slow ships
Invisibullets that aren't bright or are colored almost the exact same as your shot
Bombs that don't provide invincibility or have a delayed effect
No rapid fire
No sprite graphics
No anime intro

Super Mega C · Post by **Super Mega C** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:54 am

speed power ups

The one reason I don't really like Gradius or R-Type.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:28 am

Rank systems which I've heard referred to as "arcane" here on the board, namely a rank system which you are more or less required to make a conscious effort to control (usually by purposely doing worse) in order to have a shot at making it through the game. The concept in itself is distasteful enough to me, but the fact that it's almost never explained outright exactly what you need to do, leaving many players in the dark, irritates me even more.

It's remarkable the amount of people who complain about the lack of innovation or solid gameplay aspects in games nowadays, moan and complain when a company makes a conscious effort to try and create a game with deep, involving gameplay that forces the player to learn and exploit every aspect of it. Raizing seems to be the main offender here, and lately on the hardware side of the industry, I've noticed that Nintendo's DS has been attracting the same kind of opinion.

Yes, granted, even myself, a Raizing-fanboy, can find constant suiciding in Garegga and Bakraid very very annoying from time to time. Being penalised for powering up in Souky is baffling at times, and often lethal when I try to dodge a shower of powerups. If I want a Full Extend in Batrider, I have to miss all those Extends that appear, yet I have to kill myself to ensure I'm using the right ship at the right time to trigger the secret bosses? And when I try to keep track of all my items in Great Mahou, I crash into something. Heck, even the medal-juggling in Brave Blade can get really bloody irritating at times. And just how does the racing and the shooting fit together in Shippu Mahou? I could never make it past the third stage, shooting OR racing.

Even through all these gripes, I gave these games a chance, and tried to learn to exploit them, and found gameplay so deep, involving and rewarding that they quickly rose to the top of my rotation list. It was always inevitable that Raizing's games would get such a polar reaction - love them or hate them - but at least they tried to do something different with the games they created. I can't really say the same for the shmups that have appeared lately, by Cave, Takumi, Alfa System or anyone else for that matter, even though as a dedicated shmupper, I'll enjoy them anyway.

The only thing I can really ask is that players give these "arcane" systems a chance. Learn to exploit them, to develop tricks to work with them. Maybe then, you'll discover gameplay deeper than the Hyper system in Daioujou, the Kakusei system in Espgaluda, the cube chaining system in Mars Matrix, or the Tension system in Shikigami. And maybe after a bit more time, if you still hate them, then hey, I'll concede.

That wasn't a rant/comment aimed at anyone in particular, just an irritation I had to get off my chest.

...

OnTopic, what do I hate in shmups? Cutscenes. If there's more than a 15 second break in the action, then my concentration is lost.

gs68 · Post by **gs68** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:40 am

When you get a high score, then continue, but the game won't let you enter your initials for that high score. Very annoying and has me debating whether I should continue on and make it unknown that I set a high score, or end my game on the spot so I can enter my initials.

I also don't like...

- ships that move too fast (i.e. Gain's fighter in Shippu Mahou Daisakusen, your fighter in Parsec47, etc.). It gives me little control.

- games with too much emphasis on accuracy. Iridion 2 is the single worst offender of this. To get a good score you need to land most of your shots on an enemy. This makes all of the weapons except the forward shot and lasers obsolete, as they fire everywhere and reduce your accuracy.

- extremely large hitboxes. Iridion 2, again, is a major example. Sometimes you'll take unnecessary damage or get easily crushed between the bottom of the screen and a structure because of the hit area.