Danny's random monlthy MAME league...

[Danny]

Hello boys and girls!

Just wondered if anyone was intrested in entering a little league that I was thinking about starting up? Nothing to serious mind, it's really for the causal types really who perhaps want to extend there shmup taste pallets so to speak or generaly don't play shmups for perlonged periods of time.

I was thinking that each session will be divided in to 6 games which will be played over 6 months so that works out as 1 game a month. Each game will be played on MAME and will be chosen VIA MAME32's handy random select button one one of the smhup filters on coruse. I will flim the MAME selecting the game so that people can't say that I deliberatly picked the game or any of that nonsense.

Anyway if you are intrested please let me know by posting here. The league will start next month if there is enough intrest as it's already in the middle of the current month we are in now.

Thanks for reading!

[ArrogantBastard]

That would be fun. I was going to participate in the STGT, but I just don't have that much time and I can't dedicate that much time in one week to play a game.

I may participate in this one if it garners more interests from other shmuppers.

Edit: This is purely for fun, not for prizes, right? Because I don't want to have to worry about having to try so hard to win a prize. I'm doing this for fun and whenever I have time.

[benj]

Count me in. I thought about entering the other tourney, but one week seemed a bit short to produce a decent score (at least for me), and I'm not much of a team player.

And I agree with AB that there should be no prizes. They would only suck the fun out of it.

[Ibl]

I like tourneys that are for fun, so... I'm in.

[Danny]

This trouney is purely just for fun so don't worry AB, points don't win prizes on this league heh!

So far I've noticed that MAME has three differnt shmup catagories. "Slide" is Space Invader/Galaga style were you only move left and right, "Vert" generaly contains Shmups that rotate the screen ninty degress while "Hor" catagorie games keep the screen in it's normal position.

Anyway any thoughts on which of these lists I should select from first or should that be random as well. Was thinking of letting the people decide the type of shmup played every month but I have an inkling that hori's and slides would'nt get played since verts are generaly more popular?

[Danny]

Proposed plans for the "Just 4 Fun" League Project (proper name still pending...)

OK had a little think about this at work today and this is what I come up with. The plans and rules are not final yet but we've got two weeks essentaly to iron out the bugs before the league takes off.

1. Rules
These are the proposed rules to this league. This is intended purley for our own enjoyment and I think that I would speak for most people on this board in saying that it would be nice if every one took notice of these rules so that was can all havea good time. Don't worry if you are bad at shmups though, I'll be proping up the bottom of the table no doubt as well!

1. Cheating
NO CHEATING OF ANY KIND!! I know this sounds kinda obvious but you really have nothing to gain from cheating in this league. There are no prizes and if you are caught cheating not only will you lose the repsect of your fellow shmupers but you will also be banned from playing in this league again. So I ask nicely, please don't spoil the fun for others!

Cheating means not using the setting stated in the monthly challange, no exploting glitches or major score mechanic breaking gameplay loopholes (like juicing" the last boss from Blazing Star for example) and no using save states or any other kind of cheat devices or cheat codes. Also no modifyed pictures of high scores either. (more on that later!)

2. Submitting Scores
All submitted scores must be acomplished on the month of the game selection. This means any score that was not created during the month that the game is being played will not count! Saying that though if said score from other high score board did so happen to be from the same month (and year) as the league entry then it is OK to use it.

Futher more all entry's must have a orignal, unmodifed screenshot to prove that the person is not lying. No Screenie, No Entry! Now MAME has a handly little screen shot function and is used by pressing F12. This picture will be placed in the "snap" folder in .png format. Now for those of you how are going to complain, posting a picture is easy. You can upload your screenshots for nothing using imageshack.us. Hell you don't even have to register to use it so there is no reason why you should not use it.

2. Game Selection (Could change depending on people view on "Slide" type shmups!)
Game selection will work as the following. You, the game playing public decide what type of shmup you wish to play from the following three options above but not the actual game itself, that's rondomly selected by my MAME32 (ver 0.98) emulator. The winner of the poll situated at the top of the screen will be the first type of game played in the new league. While we are playing the first game the game for the second month will be selected but you, the game playing public will only get to decide from the two you did not select from the first month. Then the same selection prosses will be done for the 3rd, 4th, 5th month of the seasson. Here is an example of how this will work...

1. Vert type wins poll (that's my prediction anyway!) and becomes the first month game type
2. Players on the first month while playing the "Vert" type game will select from either "Hori" or "Slide" type shmups to play on the second month.
3. Poll winner at the end of the month will go on to be played at the second month.
4. The loser from month 2 will face of agasint the other shmup type which was not selected which was "Vert" type since you could not select it was not in month 2's poll and the winner will be played in month 3.

I feel that this is a fair system and give all types of shmups a fair chance of being picked since. (I know there are a lot of Vert/Cave/Whatever fanboys who will insist on playing Vert shmups every month which could get quite boring after a while.)

Anyway in all the excitment I bet your wondering how month 6's game is going to be chosen are'nt you? Well month 6's game will be the Shmup type that got the least plays in the sesaon. Since there are only two possable out comes with my game selection system it means that there will always be one game that is played te least, which means that all three genders will get played in one season.

Games that are randomly selected this season will be bared from the league for one season after the are picked. For example say DoDonPachi get's randomly picked in season one. It will not be allowed to be played again in till season 3 and if it is randomly selected again (chances are that will be quite rare!) then I will hit the random select button again till I get a game in that shmup type that is not in the "bared" list.

All games chosen will be from the orignal roms only and all "clone" roms will be filtered thus lowering the chances of games like space invaders being picked unfairly due to it huge amount of clone roms it has etc. Also if MAME does stumble across an abomination of a shoot-em-up and I mean it has to be the mother of bad shmups here were everything from gameplay to score mechinics etc is vomit inducing then, and only then will I hit the "random select" button again (and yes I will do my reserch before hitting that button!) Otherwise consider the choice of game as a learning experiance or something...

3. League Table Scoring
Well as have proberbly guessed a league would'nt be much of a league without a table. Well there will be a table in this game with a fully thought out scoring system. The maxium any player can score during one month is 1000pts. Everyone who is not in first place that month will have there scores worked out by what position they came in the league and how many people played that month in a formula. It does pay to play the game at least once and release just one score even if you hate the game or your score is just dire. After all this is being run only for our enjoyment.

One final thing, the score that the player get's everymonth will be hidden but your positions will not be. You will only get to see your final score at the end of the sesson with all your monthly scores which made it! This is to encourage people to continue playing even if they feel they are doing badly, plus it adds a little bit of drama and suspense in to the proceedings. Positon changes in the table will be marked in green up arrows and red down arrows. Green arrows means the player has moved up the chart and down means they have moved down the chart and if the player has no arrows then they have not move postion at all.

Anyway if you have any sugestion please let me know, after all best to get the problem solving over and done with now while there is two weeks to go.

thanks for reading!

[Daigohji]

*hops aboard*

I missed the STGT, so I'm not missing out on this. I predict that this will be the league EVAR.

[zakk]

I would honestly suggest against a straight random pick out of mame categories. There's entirely too many games that have completely broken game mechanics, are completely bad and unfun etc etc. I'm not suggesting you shortlist it or anything, but some cursory glances and info gathering to eliminate some of the horrible offenders would probably go a long way in increasing the enjoyment of the participants.



Also vague rules like "dont exploit gameplay loopholes" are only going to lead to drama. One person's loophole is another's perfectly legitimate scoring technique. Especially with the wide variety of games being used you're (or no one else, possibly) not going to even know what's a possible 'loophole' until the game is being played. And what if the guy who wins did it via some method which you then retroactively decide is a loophole? It's going to get ugly. I will admit I find your example of such a loophole disturbing which is why I even bring it up.

[benj]

My only suggestion would be to get rid of the "slides", since they're not much more than an impaired version of verts. Or drop the rule that says that we have to play one of them at the end of each season. Why don't we just alternate between hori and vert?

[Danny]

I hope to answer your questions as best as I can...

My only suggestion would be to get rid of the "slides", since they're not much more than an impaired version of verts. Or drop the rule that says that we have to play one of them at the end of each season. Why don't we just alternate between hori and vert?

That was one thing that was going though my mind today, dunno how everybody else feels about it since there might be some hardcore galaga or space invader fans on these forums who might enjoy them. (and if you are out there make yourselfs known) If there are a fair amount of people who would like to play the "slide" types then they have to stay, overwise I will reconsider.

Also vague rules like "dont exploit gameplay loopholes" are only going to lead to drama. One person's loophole is another's perfectly legitimate scoring technique. Especially with the wide variety of games being used you're (or no one else, possibly) not going to even know what's a possible 'loophole' until the game is being played. And what if the guy who wins did it via some method which you then retroactively decide is a loophole? It's going to get ugly. I will admit I find your example of such a loophole disturbing which is why I even bring it up.

A fair point. I suppose a rule like that would cuase a lot of hassle and I guess if someone is going to use that boss leaching trick of Blazing Star for several hours on end obviously has nothing better to be doing with there time. While using small gameplay tricks that may or may not be intended and stuff is encrouaged there is a line and someone has to draw it somewere when people are using such tricks. I guess a little background reserch on said bugs and then pointing them out to people so they do not use them should be OK but only in extreme circumstances you understand.

I would honestly suggest against a straight random pick out of mame categories. There's entirely too many games that have completely broken game mechanics, are completely bad and unfun etc etc. I'm not suggesting you shortlist it or anything, but some cursory glances and info gathering to eliminate some of the horrible offenders would probably go a long way in increasing the enjoyment of the participants.

Well I was actualy going to test the game a couple of times before posting but the problem with that suggestion is this. One man treasure is another mans grabage. I have unbeleavably low standards!, there I said it, you happy now? Seriously generaly I pretty much like everything that MAME can throw at me and I think I have only really truely disliked a few games. (Battle Wings some how comes to mind heh!)

The new proposal can cuase a lot of problems if say some really obscure game comes up and I give it a the go ahead remembering that I have really low standards when it comes to judging shmups since I no expert or anything. Some people say "yey" and then some people "ney", were does that leave me? There are way to many people on these forums to please everyone. I will re-roll the choice of game only on extreme circumstances (and I will do my reserch on this before re-rolling I promise!) but I think a lot of them will be getting the go ahead. This way we might even discover a gem or two along the way.

I hope that's helped... :S

any more suggestions please let me know!

p.s: Edited main rule set to reflect concerns...

p.s.s: Sorry to ask this but were would be a good start to learn about old shmup arcade games and which ones to avoid at all costs? thanks!

[Daigohji]

I hope to answer your questions as best as I can...

My only suggestion would be to get rid of the "slides", since they're not much more than an impaired version of verts. Or drop the rule that says that we have to play one of them at the end of each season. Why don't we just alternate between hori and vert?

That was one thing that was going though my mind today, dunno how everybody else feels about it since there might be some hardcore galaga or space invader fans on these forums who might enjoy them. (and if you are out there make yourselfs known)

I speak for the slides that have not the vocoders to speak for themselves. I'm not a hardcore fan of them by any stretch, but I see no reason to exclude them. Once you start down that road, soon you've got people complaining about everything that isn't DDP or Garegga. Let's keep it open to the ancient wildcards.

[benj]

I don't mind them being part of the poll, but I don't like that we'll have to play them at the end of the season.
I'd say we just drop the "least favourite has to be played at the end" rule.

[Danny]

I don't mind them being part of the poll, but I don't like that we'll have to play them at the end of the season.
I'd say we just drop the "least favourite has to be played at the end" rule.

The problem is with that is you know they are never going to be played EVER, which is a little unfair don't you think? I mean I had to make sure that Verts were frozen out every other month just so that at least some Hori's could be played. It's early days yet but at the moment I am unsure were ever to keep the rule in or not. Unless a lot of people demand it removed it will stay for the time being.

p.s: my prediction for the type selected in comming six months (with my rules in place)...

Vert > Hori > Vert > Hori > Vert > Slide

[CHI]

im interested.....
i only just got this mame32 working a couple of monthes ago so im still new to all this.....
6 games, a game a month..... thats cool, gives me enough time to get a decent score..... but by the end of this, i might be in another country.....
i will check this thread for updates.....

[Shatterhand]

if this starts AFTER the STGT is over, then I'll be in for sure.

Keep the slide option. Though yeah, it won't be good if it's the last game played. I'd rule out the poll and just go "Vert - Hori - Slide - Slide - Hori - Vert" order. There are good single screen shmups out there...

And IMO, let the random button decided! Unless the game has a serious scoring bug ( and I mean SERIOUS, like Soldier Blade or Time Pilot... I don't think Blazing Star last boss leeching is that bad, we played Soldier Blade in the currente STGT, and AFAIK no one managed to do it... it's freaking hard, and if someone can do it, it deserves the high score )., we should play whatever the random button decided. I am all for a COMAD SHMUP competition or something

Whatever game is picked, there will ALWAYS be someone complaining. So I say, we play WATHEVER the random button picks

[Danny]

Thanks for the positive feedback guys. As I said the shmup type selection is still work in progress but it all depends on what people want. I for one would love to play some old school slider shmups but I know they are not everyone's cup of tea.

I am also up for playing any of the games that MAME selects but there are some serious stinkers out there like B-Wings (known as Battle Wings in the west aprently). I mean common WTF! someone someware really droped the ball with that one or was having a really bad joke at the exspense of the poor arcade operator or arcade gae player because this game is dire. For a start the powered up version of the ship is huge, bigger than the player controled bi-plane in Ghost Pilots. Then there is the speed, SLOWER than Ghost Pilots!! Then there is also the crap level design, terrable migrain inducing sound and backdrops (that snot green colour is horrid!). Seriously I think so far that B-Wings is the only "black listed" game so far since it's a really crappy game, if you don't beleave me then try it out for yourself.

p.s: Here is the evidence, can I get a witness? (yes this was a video made by me within 10 minutes of my spare time lol)

[ahnslaught]

How about letting MAME select a few games from each genre, and then taking a poll? That way, the element of randomness will still be there initially, then it will be up to the participants to select which of the choices will be played.

[Daigohji]

p.s: Here is the evidence, can I get a witness? (yes this was a video made by me within 10 minutes of my spare time lol)

That sound effect when you get blown up is so familiar, but I can't remember what game it's from originally. Space Invaders, maybe? In fact, I think all of the sound effects are ripped from Space Invaders.

[Danny]

How about letting MAME select a few games from each genre, and then taking a poll? That way, the element of randomness will still be there initially, then it will be up to the participants to select which of the choices will be played.

Thats a good idea but the problem is that the lesser known games won't get a shot which is a little unfair. The whole point of this is so that perhaps we try new stuff as supposed to the same old Cave, Capcom and Raizing games etc.

[Danny]

p.s: Here is the evidence, can I get a witness? (yes this was a video made by me within 10 minutes of my spare time lol)

That sound effect when you get blown up is so familiar, but I can't remember what game it's from originally. Space Invaders, maybe? In fact, I think all of the sound effects are ripped from Space Invaders.

I thought it was more from the Midway games, perhaps Defender? Anyway I can gruantie that what ever the game that B-Wings stole some of the sound effects from they were not used as badly as they were in B-Wings lol.

Saying that I've been hitting the random select button a lot lately on the vert section and I have to say so far I've not found one game out of the 194 orignal roms that I got for MAME that I do not hate as much as B-Wing or even dislike which is cool I guess.

[sven666]

A fair point. I suppose a rule like that would cuase a lot of hassle and I guess if someone is going to use that boss leaching trick of Blazing Star for several hours on end obviously has nothing better to be doing with there time.

no offence but you obviously have no clue, do you know how HARD that scoring trick is to do.. not only do you have to get to the last form of the last boss (quite a feat on its own) but also keep dodgeing its crazy spreads for several hours on end.. i would hardly dismiss it as haveing nothing better to do with your time

[JJG]

Yeah that last boss on Blazing Star is rediculous!

[Danny]

A fair point. I suppose a rule like that would cuase a lot of hassle and I guess if someone is going to use that boss leaching trick of Blazing Star for several hours on end obviously has nothing better to be doing with there time.

no offence but you obviously have no clue, do you know how HARD that scoring trick is to do.. not only do you have to get to the last form of the last boss (quite a feat on its own) but also keep dodgeing its crazy spreads for several hours on end.. i would hardly dismiss it as haveing nothing better to do with your time

Yeah I do know how hard it is to do and yes I stand by my statement. I don't mean to be rude but Peplos is generaly disallowed anyway in any offical comptition due to that game design flaw, thus mastering that technique is pointless anyway. (hence the waste of time comment!) Although that is not to say that the people who can do it don't have skills or anything, after that boss does get medievil on your butt after awhile.

Seriously though do you think using a unintended gameplay mechinic which could potentaly give you infinate points (even though it's time consuming) and is frowned apoun by people who love the game is hardly what most casual shmupers would call fun? I mean if one person does it, then the next will have to do it so they can catch up and then before you know it potentaly everyone (OK not likely since Blazing Star is a very hard game but still) in the league will be sitting at that boss for hours juicing it for as much as they can. Hardly what I would not call that kind of thing suitable for a league aimed at causal players now is it? Now that not saying that practing on a shmup for hours is bad in fact I think it's great when people final learn to master the game but mastering such a techniques are frowned apon thus my stance.

Please don't take it to personaly but I feel really strongly about the crossing the line when it comes to this issue.

p.s: Noticed a flaw in my arugement somewhat. Game's that have "loops" (were you can play the game over and over again) are considered ok due to them being a part of the actual game design.

But I am not agasint all non-intentonal tricks that can be used. For (a non shmup) example Joust's "invincable Pterodactyl killing" bug was commonly known and used by top players, hell it's now even considered fair game by Midway who have made it an achivement on the Xbox Live version of Joust to kill the Pterodactyl which is quite funny considering they are supposed to be invincable.

[Danny]

OK on a slighty happier note (sorry about previous post people, don't normaly get shirty heh) I've done a lot of thinking today about the way that the games are selected and decided to give you a choice of sorts...

option a.
Keep the current selection process as it is. Allow people to choose from two types each month (the type is currently being played during that month will be taken out) apart from the 1st month which all three are selectable and 6th month were the least played gender gets picked.

option b.
Fixed rotation of the genders which will go like...
Vert > Slide > Hori > Vert > Slide > Hori
The poll will determin which games come first, second and thrid etc. then we will repeat the same fomula again for the second helf of the season.

Your feedback is welcome and thanks to everyone that has shown intrest so far!

EDIT: 11 days and counting!

[Shatterhand]

hey, couldn't you wait 'til the current STGT finished beforing starting this one ?

[Edge]

hey, couldn't you wait 'til the current STGT finished beforing starting this one ?

Yeah, I'd second that. You probably end with more participants after the STGT has finished. After it I might join as well.

[Super Laydock]

hey, couldn't you wait 'til the current STGT finished beforing starting this one ?

Yeah, I'd second that. You probably end with more participants after the STGT has finished. After it I might join as well.

You could still join. There's a month for each game, so if you only start playing after STGT 2k6 you still have 3 weeks to get a good score.

I might join in as well in, but am also thinking that participating in 1 tournament a year is enough. It might be overkill for me and take a toll aon motivation. I'll see after cave week though.

[Icarus]

I'm too knackered to join in another tournament, and will be taking a break from serious competitive play after Cave Week. I'd rather invest what energy I have left in my studies and playing the games I want to play, and might discuss the possibility of keeping namakoteam together with my teammates for the next STGT if Edge fancies it next year.

We have our title to defend, after all. ^_-

[sven666]

next year.

expect team sweden bigger, better and if humanly possible even more beautiful!

im gonna divert all my attention to my PCB collection so no more mame for me...

tho i must ask, what is a sliding shmup?

ed: cancel that, didnt see the poll

[Rob]

It would be a good idea to coordinate with other people who are planning a competition (that is, Nemo... and hopefully no one else?). While it's a funny thought to have competing competitions, I'm sure no one wants their efforts wasted when 5 people play along with each.