If U don't like X, U don't like shmups

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:41 pm

Before I discovered this very cool site (a few months back), I was naive. (Of course, I'm still naive; only a little less so.) I used to think:

If you don't like Souky, then you don't like shmups.
If you don't like Radiant Silvergun, then you don't like shmups.

I now realize that these claims are false. (Though I am still struggling to understand how they can be false!)

Perhaps we can get a true statement by making X a disjunction:
If you don't like A or B or C, then you don't like shmups.
However, I'm not sure what values for A, B, and C will make this true.

So I ask: What value for X will make the following true:
If you don't like X, then you don't like shmups.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:50 pm

if you don´t like dodging bullet, then you don´t like shmups.

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:23 pm

If you don't like pressing buttons, you may or may not enjoy shmups.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:35 pm

I cannot disagree with these clever responses, though I was hoping for a value of X that would make the statement informative or at least provocative.

Tar-Palantir · Post by **Tar-Palantir** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:14 pm

Video games
Shmups (the trivial solution)
Blowing stuff up/Shooting stuff down

Does a non-trivial solution exist

?

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:17 pm

Alas, humans often hope for things which cannot be... I believe that's one of their unique qualities.

I'm afraid that there cannot be a value for X which is not extremely-general, as I believe that the statement itself must be general. As you realize that your Soukyugurentai and RSG sample claims are false, so may be all claims upon a similar level.

I don't think that anyone is attempting to make snide remarks; It's just that there are so many factors to consider, and many additional personal preferences and behavioral traits beyond that. For instance; I disagree with "dodging bullet," because many gamers out there (usually casual) enjoy shmups for the purpose of 'blowing things up,' and, there are other games where mechanisms such as 'reflect barrier' are made to be used. Even incognoscente added 'may or may not' to the criteria, because perhaps sometimes people enjoy shmups as interesting to watch.

I saw this thread earlier, but didn't reply because it seemed as though it couldn't go anywhere... I continue to believe that is the case. If you, mr. ganson, wish to receive a solid, specific response... then, I'm afraid you'll have to ask a solid, specific question.

(Even 'blowing stuff up/shooting stuff down' might not be valid, since games like Psyvariar 2 focus on the buzz, right?)

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:19 pm

I think you're thinking too hard about this

The problems as to whether or not someone likes a certain shmup may not necessarily state that they dislike all shmups. I hate Silpheed: The lost Planet, but that doesn't mean I hate all vertical shmups.

I doubt there's any sort of equation for what people like or dislike...we're too diverse in our opinions to form any sort of theorem.

If anything this is the closest theorem I can come up with:

Let us designate Vertical Shmups as Type A

Let us designate Horizontal Shmups as Type B

Let us designate Shmups that fall into either category as Type C

Person X shows Person Y Type A Shmup, Type B Shmup, Type C Shmup:

Several possibilities occur:

50% chance of liking or disliking Shmup Type A

50% chance of liking or disliking Shmup Type B

50% chance of liking or disliking Shmup Type C

The results can be that Person Y likes only A, AB, AC, B, BC, or C, not necessarily ABC or None.

If you were to add the variables of "Style of Shmup" and "Gameplay" or even "Catering to Person X's Taste" to this equation, it may alter the percentages based on Person Y's personal taste, but in fact that is what determines whether or not he likes Type A, B, or C.

Anyway, it's all relative, you may like some, you may not. You may hate them all because they gave you a traumatizing experience (bizarre, but possibly true....shmups do involve military-type weapons).

In summary of what I'm saying.

O.o This is a wierd topic.

uwfan · Post by **uwfan** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:19 pm

All he is asking is for 3 games that between them are a wide enough disjunction [that is they cover a wide enough of variety of gameplay and design to be representative of the field in shmups in general] that if a person doesnt like A or B or C then we can logically conclude they will not like shmups.

My best effort would be:

If a person doesn't like DoDonpachi OR Raiden OR R-Type then we can logically conclude they will not like shmups.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:30 pm

Thanks, uwfan. That's the sort of thing I had in mind, and I find your selections interesting.

By the way, by "like shmups" I mean something like "REALLY like shmups." So someone who enjoys watching shmups (to mention icepicks example) is not going to count. I mean someone like US.

Post by **system11** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:07 pm

uwfan wrote: My best effort would be:

If a person doesn't like DoDonpachi OR Raiden OR R-Type then we can logically conclude they will not like shmups.

I can't believe someone is validating this nonsense.

zimeon · Post by **zimeon** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:20 pm

Fact:
If you don't like Radiant Silvergun, then you don't like Radiant Silvergun.
If you don't like DoDonpachi, then you don't like DoDonpachi.
If you dont like EspRaDe, then... [etc]

There are shmups, and there are shmups. The statement "if you don't like X or Y or Z, then you don't like shmups", is probably just some "are you a pureblood?". That sort of distinction is for me personally totally uninteresting.

However, I have to admit that I am intrigued by the possibility of stating three shmups, and having the whole community who call themselves shmup-interested agreeing on that they like at least on of those. This would be the only interesting direction of the thread, however it's probably impossible. I seriously though, doubt DoDonpachi, Raiden and R-type would be the three. I, for one, am more prone to like character-based shmups than high-tech shmups where you fly a ship. Admittedly, I can most certainly live with the fact that I am no shmuppet, but is that the point with this thread?

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26 pm

If you like flipping out, then you might be a ninja.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Specineff wrote:If you like flipping out, then you might be a ninja.

i completely agree with Spec

UnscathedFlyingObject · Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:16 pm

If you're not like me, you don't like shmups.

Unless you like dying.
Screenname speaking, of course.

-UFO

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:39 pm

If you don't like true low res, you don't like shmups.

Skyline · Post by **Skyline** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:30 am

If you don't like challenges, you don't like shmups.

...

If you don't like Radiant SIlvergun, you'd better sell that shit to me $50 shipped.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:40 am

I like video games as well as shmups...but I don't like your post.

Oh well, I'm off to make some corn beef hash now...
Cheers!

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:23 pm

I'm sorry this post turned out to suck. Fortunately, I won't have time to write any more sucky posts for a while, as I know have a stack of papers to grade.

Since I likely won't have time to return to this post, let me just leave you with some final, half-baked thoughts. Admittedly, I don't know much about first-person shooters. But if someone told me that they were a huge fan of such games, that this was what gaming was all about for them, but that they didn't like Halo 1 & 2, they didn't like any Doom games, they didn't like Half-Life 1 & 2, and they didn't like any Wolfenstein games---I would initially be quite puzzled. "Are you sure you like FPSs?" I would ask. "Maybe you just like some sub-genre, or maybe you just like one or two FPSs, and you're not really a fan of the genre."

Now I used to think that there were shmups that had the status of Halo, Doom, Half-Life, and Wolfenstein. As I said, I was naive in thinking that Souky and RSG had that status. My point in starting this post was to point out that it now seems to me, after visiting this Forum, that no shmups are obviously genre-defining.

So why is that? My guess is that the genre has been around so long and has so many good games that it is pointless to try to pin down certain ones as THE shmups that all others want to be. But, of course, this is a good thing.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:32 pm

Err, not all FPS fans like Halo, do they? I sure can't stand it...

Anyway, a 3-some would probably have to consist of a mixture of verts and horiz, manic and traditional, and maybe sci-fi, fantasy, and cute to satisfy a majority.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:25 pm

Ganelon wrote:Anyway, a 3-some would probably have to consist of a mixture of verts and horiz, manic and traditional, and maybe sci-fi, fantasy, and cute to satisfy a majority.

pervert

oh and actually, Halo can kiss my ass as well.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:14 pm

Well, I sure didn't think of it that way...

zimeon · Post by **zimeon** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:02 pm

Ganelon wrote:Err, not all FPS fans like Halo, do they? I sure can't stand it...

Of course not. Although I agree with Ganson that there are probably few people who a) consider themselves being FPS-fans, and b) don't like either Halo nor Doom nor Half-life nor Wolfenstein.

For shmups, what is it... Sokyugurentai, Ikaruga, Perfect Cherry Blossom and... Raiden? Or?

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:57 pm

Specineff wrote:If you like flipping out, then you might be a ninja.

If you like flipping your monitor, then you might be a shmuper

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:52 pm

what if someone likes quake 3, call of duty, CS and killzone but doesnt like doom, halo, wolfenstein and half life?

as you see, this topic is pointless, and keeping it going further doesnt make sense.

the real thing is: "if U dun buy X, Y & Z, U dun liek shumps lololoomsgfkapwnd"

zimeon · Post by **zimeon** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:09 am

Let's play a game then, to see if there is such a thing as four shmups to cover the whole population of people who claim to be a "shmup fan".

How many people here claim they are shmuppers and do not like any of the following: Sokyugurentai, Ikaruga, Raiden, Perfect Cherry Blossom?

(The selection is not based on anything but guesses.)

Rules:
1: If you claim to be a shmupper and like only one of the above, please state that one, since the list would be invalid if anyone wanted to remove that specific one. If possible, state any title you could accept that that one title could be replaced with.

Example: Of the four above, I like only Perfect Cherry Blossom. So removing that makes the list invalid, unless it's replaced by Princess of insects (Mushihimesama).

2: If you claim to be a shmupper yet dislike all of the four above, please exchange the one you seem fit for a game that summarizes your liking in shmups. Do only exchange according to the limitations stated in rule 1.

If we come to the point where rule 2 cannot be applied because of the limitations from rule 1, then the game is over and the experiment is a failure. For experiments sake, though, I think that we could accept a fifth game to the list. Six games, however, would probably be too much.

What do you think? If people want to participate in this game, I can keep tracks.

Current status:
* Sokyugurentai
* Ikaruga
* Raiden
* Perfect Cherry Blossom (Mushihimesama)

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:51 pm

zimeon wrote:Let's play a game then, to see if there is such a thing as four shmups to cover the whole population of people who claim to be a "shmup fan".

How many people here claim they are shmuppers and do not like any of the following: Sokyugurentai, Ikaruga, Raiden, Perfect Cherry Blossom?

(The selection is not based on anything but guesses.)

Rules:
1: If you claim to be a shmupper and like only one of the above, please state that one, since the list would be invalid if anyone wanted to remove that specific one. If possible, state any title you could accept that that one title could be replaced with.

Example: Of the four above, I like only Perfect Cherry Blossom. So removing that makes the list invalid, unless it's replaced by Princess of insects (Mushihimesama).

2: If you claim to be a shmupper yet dislike all of the four above, please exchange the one you seem fit for a game that summarizes your liking in shmups. Do only exchange according to the limitations stated in rule 1.

If we come to the point where rule 2 cannot be applied because of the limitations from rule 1, then the game is over and the experiment is a failure. For experiments sake, though, I think that we could accept a fifth game to the list. Six games, however, would probably be too much.

What do you think? If people want to participate in this game, I can keep tracks.

Current status:
* Sokyugurentai
* Ikaruga
* Raiden
* Perfect Cherry Blossom (Mushihimesama)

Jesus.

Anyway I've never even played Soky, Ikaruga, or Cherry Blossom, and I don't find Raiden all that special.

And I'm definitely a shmup-fan. I just don't have a Saturn. Must you have a Saturn to be a true shmupper? I don't think so.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:37 pm

this is silly and unuseful.

Anyway, I like both Souky and Raiden, and never played the other 2 shmups.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:39 pm

Nuke wrote:
Specineff wrote:If you like flipping out, then you might be a ninja.
If you like flipping your monitor, then you might be a shmuper

I might have to steal those for a future sig.

zimeon · Post by **zimeon** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:54 pm

sffan wrote:And I'm definitely a shmup-fan. I just don't have a Saturn. Must you have a Saturn to be a true shmupper? I don't think so.

Certainly not. I just picked some titles that people have been mentioning. I haven't played Sokyugurentai nor Raiden myself.

So... any suggestions for your own favourite shmup?

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:18 am

Gosh, I thought the topic title referred to the euro(trash)tastic X2 for PlayStation, so I was all prepared to say WELL I GUESS I DONT LIKE SHMUPS THEN!!!

Thankfully, that has been avoided.

In unrelated news, did I mention I have a Japanese copy of X2 for sale? ;P