XRGB-mini Framemeister

[tusecsy]

Hey FBX, why can't I use your profiles in 720p? They seem to work fine. Or do you mean I have to use a 1080p display specifically and 720p mode is fine in the rgbx.

Well the zoom settings most important to the profiles were designed for 1080p output, so I really can't see them being useful for 720p mode.

Scanlines are perfectly even, what else would be off?

[FBX]

Hey FBX, why can't I use your profiles in 720p? They seem to work fine. Or do you mean I have to use a 1080p display specifically and 720p mode is fine in the rgbx.

Well the zoom settings most important to the profiles were designed for 1080p output, so I really can't see them being useful for 720p mode.

Scanlines are perfectly even, what else would be off?

I don't know how zoom functions work in 720p mode, but the point is stuff like SNES 5x is meant to be 5x vertical on 1080p with 4 rows of graphics cropped from the top and bottom of the screen. If it did this in 720p, it wouldn't be 5x, and it shouldn't look perfectly even. In 720p, you want something like 3x vertical, which would be 672 and leave a black border on the top and bottom of the screen.

[tusecsy]

I don't know how zoom functions work in 720p mode, but the point is stuff like SNES 5x is meant to be 5x vertical on 1080p with 4 rows of graphics cropped from the top and bottom of the screen. If it did this in 720p, it wouldn't be 5x, and it shouldn't look perfectly even. In 720p, you want something like 3x vertical, which would be 672 and leave a black border on the top and bottom of the screen.

Ah I see, I'll mess around with it more tomorrow when I get time, but things did appear to look quite good in 5x 720p. definitely not 200% too big or something. I really wanna get full screen 5x + scanlines going, 4x 1080p just always looks too small to me and I hate the non-scanline look.

LOL at myself. I was setting the framemeister to 720p, then instinctively going this looks like crap i must have to load the profile. Then when I loaded your profile it would switch back to 1080p and look amazing. I was like damn I can hang with 720p! Anyway sorry to waste your time on that.

The random phantom scanlines do show up in 5x with austins scanline settings (really dig the 10/76 btw austin), but they're pretty faint and I can ignore them while playing for the most part. 1080p at 5x with scanlines is just so damn nice I can put up with it. Do the scanlines in 5x fuck up anything else picture wise or just those odd extra lines in there? Also what are the best settings you'd recommend to get the fattest line while getting rid of this problem, until/if Micomsoft fixes the problem. I know turning it up to 127 does it but I'd rather have no scanline than have them super thin like that.

side note... damn, playing mario all-stars for the first time like this is truly revelatory.

[austin532]

I really wanna get full screen 5x + scanlines going, 4x 1080p just always looks too small to me and I hate the non-scanline look.

The random phantom scanlines do show up in 5x with austins scanline settings (really dig the 10/76 btw austin), but they're pretty faint and I can ignore them while playing for the most part. 1080p at 5x with scanlines is just so damn nice I can put up with it. Do the scanlines in 5x fuck up anything else picture wise or just those odd extra lines in there? Also what are the best settings you'd recommend to get the fattest line while getting rid of this problem, until/if Micomsoft fixes the problem. I know turning it up to 127 does it but I'd rather have no scanline than have them super thin like that.

You can't get nice looking scanlines with 5x unfortunately. You get the phantom scanlines to appear as you said. 10/76 is good but you may need to boost gamma as it darkens the image.

I also find that playing early polygon games with a softer image plus scanlines really helps.

[tusecsy]

I really wanna get full screen 5x + scanlines going, 4x 1080p just always looks too small to me and I hate the non-scanline look.

The random phantom scanlines do show up in 5x with austins scanline settings (really dig the 10/76 btw austin), but they're pretty faint and I can ignore them while playing for the most part. 1080p at 5x with scanlines is just so damn nice I can put up with it. Do the scanlines in 5x fuck up anything else picture wise or just those odd extra lines in there? Also what are the best settings you'd recommend to get the fattest line while getting rid of this problem, until/if Micomsoft fixes the problem. I know turning it up to 127 does it but I'd rather have no scanline than have them super thin like that.

You can't get nice looking scanlines with 5x unfortunately. You get the phantom scanlines to appear as you said. 10/76 is good but you may need to boost gamma as it darkens the image.

I also find that playing early polygon games with a softer image plus scanlines really helps.

What are the best settings you can use on 5x that still gets rid of the ghosting problem, how high do the numbers need to be? I can deal with the ghosting really it's not too terrible while you're playing.

[austin532]

What ghosting problem are you talking about? Do you mean the phantom scanlines?

[tusecsy]

What ghosting problem are you talking about? Do you mean the phantom scanlines?

yah

[austin532]

The phantoms don't disappear until you reach 100 INT_SMOOTH but by then the lines are so thin that it's not even worth it. Trust me I tried and tried to see if there was a certain combination that would make them look decent but I couldn't find one.

[tusecsy]

The phantoms don't disappear until you reach 100 INT_SMOOTH but by then the lines are so thin that it's not even worth it. Trust me I tried and tried to see if there was a certain combination that would make them look decent but I couldn't find one.

bummer. i'll just put up with them until they hopefully fix it, i really can't stand 4x or 720p. thanks for the help.

[Cirventhor]

Just got a 50/60 hz (switchless) modded Super Famicom today.

60 hz looks awesome as expected, however when running in 50 hz the picture is notably worse (too bright), and for some reason the scanlines on my XRGB doesn't properly line up, even when the XRGB is set to 576p/50hz. There are 3-4 lines the are bright which ruins the appearance of the scanlines. Strangely my unmodded ancient PAL SNES doesn't have any of these issues, so I guess it has something to do with outputting 50 hz from an originally NTSC console.

Any ideas on how to solve the scanline issue?

[austin532]

Wish I knew the answer to that but I have no experience with PAL systems. Not sure which scanlines you are using but all of them ones I made were meant to be used with NTSC systems while in 1080p mode.

I've never seen it where 3-4 scanlines are brighter than the others. Can you take a pic? Curious as to what it looks like.

[Cirventhor]

Just to be clear - this is not a PAL SNES, it is a Japanese NTSC Super Famicom which has been modded to run PAL games in 50 hz through the switchless mod. As such it runs 60 hz NTSC games perfectly.

Uploaded a picture here (the warping is due to a curved TV): http://imgur.com/cbz5BsA

As you can see it's not as much a case of brighter lines than actual missing scanlines.

That being said, I figured out a workaround. Using the x1 setting on the XRGB, and setting aspect ratio on the TV to 4:3 (instead of 4:3 the XRGB) resulted in perfect scanlines. Odd, but it worked. I guess it's due to some wonky scaling of 50 hz signals on the TV.

[nissling]

The reason of lost scanlines is due to an odd resolution, like 289p or 287p. This is common for modified consoles. If you adjust the vertical screen size one step either up or down (depending on which resolution it is) you will most likely get rid of the issue.

[Cirventhor]

The reason of lost scanlines is due to an odd resolution, like 289p or 287p. This is common for modified consoles. If you adjust the vertical screen size one step either up or down (depending on which resolution it is) you will most likely get rid of the issue.

Thanks for the tip. Just checked and the mini actually reports 286p, so I adjusted vertical scan by -2 and got the scanlines to line up perfectly.

[austin532]

The reason of lost scanlines is due to an odd resolution, like 289p or 287p. This is common for modified consoles. If you adjust the vertical screen size one step either up or down (depending on which resolution it is) you will most likely get rid of the issue.

This was my initial thought as I've seen that screen many times and I know that PAL games run at 288p but since it was a modified NTSC system I wasn't 100% sure.

[blizzz]

You need a DFO (dual frequency oscillator) mod for the SNES and N64 generation to get proper 50/60Hz switching.

[FBX]

So this question is for those more knowledgeable on the subject of color output, but I've been noticing something about the current firmware of the Framemeister (and perhaps it was this way before):

I seem to get more properly balanced colors by setting the color output to "Auto" where it basically forces YCbCr 12-bit on my setup, along with "Full" for color range. Since the primary colors appear more balanced, I've been re-saving all my profiles using the new HDMI settings. Just wanted to ask if this seems the best method for others as well? Whenever I try RGB output, the green channel is much more intense than red or blue.

[Fudoh]

The internal processing is done in YUV422, so by choosing YCbCr output you're eliminating the conversion back to RGB at the end. Limited or full range doesn't apply to YCbCr though. That kind of output is strictly limited range.

[FBX]

The internal processing is done in YUV422, so by choosing YCbCr output you're eliminating the conversion back to RGB at the end. Limited or full range doesn't apply to YCbCr though. That kind of output is strictly limited range.

If you use "Limited" in YCbCr mode, it has this weird effect where brightness is turned up on the dark end of the spectrum, and it looks like crap. So it does something, but it's not good whatever it is.

Thanks for letting me know what the deal is with RGB output.

[Fudoh]

If you use "Limited" in YCbCr mode, it has this weird effect where brightness is turned up on the dark end of the spectrum, and it looks like crap. So it does something, but it's not good whatever it is.

that's probably a remnant of the RGB setting. It shouldn't do anything and you've seen yourself whatever it does, isn't right.

Since we're talking analogue input signals (which can be sampled either way) I don't see any problem with going for a YCbCr output instead of RGB. The problem with the shifted offsets between 240p, 480i and 480p component is likely due to counting in that nonsense 7.5 IRE offset the japanese used on analogue SD video signals other than RGB. Even today I see japanese Blu-Rays with catastrophic (as in non-existent) black levels due to this very misconception.

[blizzz]

I seem to get more properly balanced colors by setting the color output to "Auto" where it basically forces YCbCr 12-bit on my setup, along with "Full" for color range.

That's what I have been saying for years. You have to select Full on the Framemeister to get proper limited range for some reason.

[FBX]

I seem to get more properly balanced colors by setting the color output to "Auto" where it basically forces YCbCr 12-bit on my setup, along with "Full" for color range.

That's what I have been saying for years. You have to select Full on the Framemeister to get proper limited range for some reason.

It's weird because my old profiles had RGB output and "Limited" which seemed to give better results than "Full". However with YCbCr, obviously "Full" is the only way to go. It just seems like they changed something about all this the past couple of firmware updates.

At any rate, I'll have to keep an eye on these settings as new firmwares come out. You never know when Micomsoft will flip the table over on these functions and make them backwards from the last update.

[tusecsy]

I seem to get more properly balanced colors by setting the color output to "Auto" where it basically forces YCbCr 12-bit on my setup, along with "Full" for color range.

That's what I have been saying for years. You have to select Full on the Framemeister to get proper limited range for some reason.

It's weird because my old profiles had RGB output and "Limited" which seemed to give better results than "Full". However with YCbCr, obviously "Full" is the only way to go. It just seems like they changed something about all this the past couple of firmware updates.

At any rate, I'll have to keep an eye on these settings as new firmwares come out. You never know when Micomsoft will flip the table over on these functions and make them backwards from the last update.

Thanks for all the updated info, indeed it fixes the green levels which I didn't even realize were off.

Side note, Micomsoft.....interface 101, why can't I press up on the top option to jump down to the bottom, so annoying having to scroll down every time I wanna load something.

[FBX]

Side note, Micomsoft.....interface 101, why can't I press up on the top option to jump down to the bottom, so annoying having to scroll down every time I wanna load something.

You know what would be awesome? If Micomsoft assigned one of the remote buttons as "Load", where it brings up the profile menu on one press.

[tusecsy]

Side note, Micomsoft.....interface 101, why can't I press up on the top option to jump down to the bottom, so annoying having to scroll down every time I wanna load something.

You know what would be awesome? If Micomsoft assigned one of the remote buttons as "Load", where it brings up the profile menu on one press.

Let's not get crazy!

[austin532]

Side note, Micomsoft.....interface 101, why can't I press up on the top option to jump down to the bottom, so annoying having to scroll down every time I wanna load something.

You know what would be awesome? If Micomsoft assigned one of the remote buttons as "Load", where it brings up the profile menu on one press.

Let's not get crazy!

You know what would be even more awesome, if they released updates that actually did something and not make it worse.

[Shuco13]

However with YCbCr, obviously "Full" is the only way to go. It just seems like they changed something about all this the past couple of firmware updates.

At any rate, I'll have to keep an eye on these settings as new firmwares come out.

Or just keep an eye on what people write as soon as a new firmware is released. It's been discussed over and over and I've mentioned it several times in the past. The "limited" mode has always had its flaws ever since it was implemented. Therefore it...

...would be even more awesome, if they released updates that actually did something and not make it worse.

[FBX]

So I finished work on my first experimental 720p profile. I decided to start with the NES since it has 240 vertical res, making it scale perfectly to 720. I then applied AR to the horizontal using the formula documented on NESdev's Overscan page.

If anyone is hot for 720 profiles and has a NESRGB modded console, please give it a try and let me know how it looks.

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/720nesprofile.zip

[bonzo.bits]

Okay check and see in the Framemeister menu if there's an option under "DATA" that reads "CPU_UPDATE". If there is, turn that on (provided you have the card insterted with the latest firmware), and then see if that works to update it when you power off the Framemeister.

No luck with this. Nor with updating via USB. I'm not entirely certain of the correct process for USB updating.

The problem is the card, they're cheap, try another one. Could be you aren't getting the folder structure correct also. The root needs to be x:\XRGBmini\(system folders).

The more failures that occur, the more certain I am that it is the card. Unless both Windows and Android OS' are unable to access the root of the SD card, then the structure is correct.

The SD card slot on my laptop is busted so I've ordered a replacement USB card reader. Once that arrives I'll poke around in command prompt and make sure that the root as it is shown in Windows and Android is the actual root.

Yep, it was the SD card. Card reader was delivered today, card formatted to FAT32 and bingo! A bit odd if you ask me, seeing as the card remained in the card slot at the rear of the FM from when firmware was updated to 2.0 just over a year ago. And was already in FAT32 format when things went wrong with this current update. Maybe the Android OS did something weird to the card when I put it in my phone to DL the latest firmware...

Not much value in this post but might help someone at some stage

EDIT: Just did some testing. Results indicate that either the OS (Android 5.1.1) or the File Commander software I used to unzip from internal storage to SD card, have somehow rendered the card unusable to the firmware updating program.

Process:

Removed SD card from FM after updating firmware to 2.03.
Inserted card in handset.
Opened File Commander application and unzipped firmware 2.00 to SD card.
Removed card from phone and inserted in FM.
Unplug/replug power cable from FM - update was not triggered.

After this I used the laptop to reformat the SD card and add the unzipped FW 2.00 to the root.
Insert in FM. Unplug/replug and voila! Firmware successfully rolled back to 2.00.

TL:DR - If firmware update is not working for you, reformat the SD card and avoid using mobile handset to do so. And / or don't use generic SD cards. Something in the process I was using was preventing the FM from detecting the presence of a different firmware version.

[rtw]

If you have issues with SD cards use the official tool to reformat the card:

https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/

This tool is published by the SD Association and works 100%.