Strong aesthetic, weak gameplay

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ikaruga is an unplayable mess that has some graphics I guess.

On the chance you're not just trolling, really? I mean I know it's really overrated and the scoring system requires absurd precision chaining and surviving is pretty brutal considering you have no bombs to use to help with sections you get stuck on, but it's not like it's an 'unplayable mess'.

[Giest118]

My actual opinion is more nuanced and basically revolves around its design feeling extremely suffocating.

But yeah it's an unplayable mess that has some graphics.

[Cagar]

-

[Giest118]

In terms of survival, I've made it to the last phase of Tageri (I believe that's the stage 5 boss's name), and in terms of scoring, I figured out enough to S-rank stage 1 and B-rank stage 2. I don't remember the exact number of hours of gameplay.

The stages in Ikaruga are laid out such that you can do all the stuff and so that you can figure out how to do all the stuff. But doing all the stuff is complicated and furnishes you wish a case of sensory overload. So you can decide not to do it because fuck that, but then the game has this weird feeling where stuff is just kind of happening around you. There doesn't appear to be a middle ground with this game. You're either following the exact trail of pixels of movement that the developers laid out for you, or you're not in control. Which is... a strange dichotomy.

It is an interesting counterpoint to something like Battle Garegga. Where Ikaruga has its scoring path clearly and definitively laid out by the developers, Garegga is more just thrown together and lets the player do what they want with it. The games are on opposing sides of that particular spectrum of design philosophy. I'm not the biggest fan of either game, but I find Garegga preferable because it leans more toward the "freedom" side of things. Meanwhile my real preference lies more toward the middle, which is where a lot of Cave's library sits. Yes, Cave games require ridiculous precision for ideal scores, but they rarely have the same feeling that Ikaruga does where, if you DON'T follow the scoring route, there's this elaborate dance that's happening without you.

So yeah Ikaruga is dumb unfun garbage and nobody has ever enjoyed playing it.

That was a joke. You're a joke if you took it seriously.

[Cagar]

-

[Squire Grooktook]

I mostly play for survival whilst doing the crappy chains I know and I find it fun that way. Same playstyle as Dodonpachi basically.* Never really gotten that "too much going on" feel from learning the game.

Tageri is so fucking greattho. Best boss fight ever.

Also I like environmental hazards.


*I keep track of my score and try to improve it each time, but I don't really care about it too much. Dangun still the only danmaku I really care about my score in. Maybe Mecha Ritz and CRS68K too.

[Giest118]

Tageri really is an awesome boss, that much I will say without reservation.

[LordHypnos]

... Omega Fighter which looks horribly boring but plays like an absolute dream.

In some ways, Omega Fighter could actually be classified as a game with a strong aesthetic and weak gameplay.

It really was an interesting game thanks to its scoring system and slowdown abilities, as well as the setting (the entire game is vs a giant battleship). But yes, the powerup system does seem pretty poorly thought out - you have to dodge the max powerups (as your weapon is way too ineffective at max power), and the usual weapon to use is the straight shot... I think it's still a pretty good game but the weapon system could have done with some polish.

Yeah, It's definitely a case where the fact that it still manages to be really fun in spite of it's flaws (though the frustration did eventually get the better of me) really speaks to how good the actual underlying mechanics and design are.

[To Far Away Times]

There is something admirable about Ikaruga's design in how simple and congruent the whole thing is.

I think it's a very interesting and very well made game.

I tend to like "puzzle" shmups like R-Type and what not though.

[ciox]

Ikaruga is a top game, some day most will realize this.
I could try to accelerate the realization by making more videos showing how off the wall you can play the game, but that takes a lot of time, I have a bunch of stuff already (not that I needed more confirmation that the game isn't a rigid mess, my gut already told me this from playing) and I can't help but wonder why, in 16 years we haven't had anyone diverge just a little bit from the old strategies and do something like this instead of copying the age old strat and at most adding some flourish to it instead of starting over, in the east I guess they didn't bother recording it because it wasn't relevant, the game was already fun to optimize even with that set strategy in place, in the west it's more likely that they never found it or bothered to look for it before doing the old strat out of comfort, if people don't care to try to play different, why complain that the game is too rigid? This stuff even feels like low-hanging fruit to me as I haven't done any super deep analysis of the game yet

[Squire Grooktook]

One thing that bugs me the most about Ikruga condemnation is the emphasis on the upper echelons of scoring.

"It sucks a high level play, therefore it sucks."

Putting aside for a moment whether this is true or not, there are so many games in this genre that are well regarded (and rightfully so) without having deep or good score play.

R-Type is a masterpiece, and there's not much entertainment to be had in it beyond survival play. I could say the same for countless classic Taito, Konami, Seibu, Psikyo, etc. titles as well. Yet Ikaruga is shit because the uber pro-level super play gameplay is flawed (or so some people say).

A flaw is still a flaw of course, and if a game is encouraging you to do something not-fun at high level play, I'm not excusing that. But at the same time, I don't see it as just to toss aside everything else it does well just because of one aspect of the experience either.

Ikaruga's honestly a great fucking game to learn and work through like most oldschool shmups, and I don't think there's anything to apologize for there. I understand that there are some competitive level players who want to play everything competitively, but for me I don't see the need to view everything in the genre through that "I must superplay" lens. Sometimes its nice to play something for the sake of going on an adventure. DOJ and Ketsui will still be there when you get back.

"but but my replay value"

Score play isn't the be-all, end-all of replay value. Some games are exciting to revisit anytime, competition or not. And scoreplay is not the only way to keep revisits fresh and exciting either.

[Ebbo]

Ikaruga is great. However I think that being the poster child of shmup genre among mainstream audience hasn't done it any favors over time.

As for the actual topic at hand, I would have to go with Mushihimesama. It's a stunning game in terms of aesthetics but its gameplay and underlying systems leave me completely lukewarm. Certainly has its merits, it just has too many Cave pet peeves for my taste.

[Cagar]

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[Durandal]

Devil Daggers is objectively good

[PuToTyra]

Your failure to understand Touhou as a whole coupled with your idiotic views that aesthetics > gameplay just make you look like a moron tbh. I bet you don't even score.

I can 1cc some games on lunatic, so dunno about that...

However, I've only ever uploaded a video replay once, and it was only because someone asked me for it.
It's touhou9 1cc after over a year of not playing it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXYR5SL5pBk

it's not world's 1st place, so this score is not worth bragging about.

Also, you probably don't even know the shitstorm that some fans have risen when Reimu's skirt have been shortened for hopeless masquerade....

[AxelMill]

Your failure to understand Touhou as a whole coupled with your idiotic views that aesthetics > gameplay just make you look like a moron tbh. I bet you don't even score.

I can 1cc some games on lunatic, so dunno about that...

But you can't score, so your opinion on Touhou's aestethics is objectively wrong.

[Sumez]

[pegboy]

I'm huge into audio/visual presentation component of a shmup, to the point where I will nearly write a game off entirely if I can't get into the art direction. For instance I will NEVER be into Touhou, I cannot stand the aesthetics, they are game ruining to me and stop me dead in the water from ever getting into it.

I really need both aesthetics/presentation and strong gameplay or I'm pretty much never going to like the game. Strong gameplay does not mean "complex mechanics". The best games ever made are simple to understand and difficult to master. This goes for shmups too.

[Squire Grooktook]

Also, you probably don't even know the shitstorm that some fans have risen when Reimu's skirt have been shortened for hopeless masquerade....

Honestly sounds like Chris Chan and Sonic's arms.

For instance I will NEVER be into Touhou, I cannot stand the aesthetics, they are game ruining to me and stop me dead in the water from ever getting into it.

Further proof that I'm the opposite. Personally I pretty much hate every aspect of Touhou outside of the gameplay (hate the ugly 3d visuals and half assed "sprites", I find the dialogue horrendous and the entire cast hilariously unlikable, find the setting pretentious and boring, hate Zun's crime against man and nature art, don't even like most of the music too much), but they'll always be in my top 10-25 for the amazingly fun rng dodging alone. I can return to that anytime for an adrenaline pumping good time.

[pegboy]

Also, you probably don't even know the shitstorm that some fans have risen when Reimu's skirt have been shortened for hopeless masquerade....

Honestly sounds like Chris Chan and Sonic's arms.

For instance I will NEVER be into Touhou, I cannot stand the aesthetics, they are game ruining to me and stop me dead in the water from ever getting into it.

Further proof that I'm the opposite. Personally I pretty much hate every aspect of Touhou outside of the gameplay (hate the ugly 3d visuals and half assed "sprites", I find the dialogue horrendous and the entire cast hilariously unlikable, find the setting pretentious and boring, hate Zun's crime against man and nature art, don't even like most of the music too much), but they'll always be in my top 10-25 for the amazingly fun rng dodging alone. I can return to that anytime for an adrenaline pumping good time.

I can still play games with "simple" aesthetics (ChoRenSha for instance) but the creepy fan-service anime garbage is just so offputting and disturbing to me, I'm just done right from the start with that crap.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll be fair and point out for the millionth time that, as bad as Touhou's aesthetic is, there's no real fanservice. It's ugly, ugly dolls saying stupid, stupid shit at eachother before battles. It's a failed attempt at being innocently cute (in the classic Kikai Kakai kind of cute em up style), but sex is the furthest thing from the aesthetic.

[Shepardus]

Also, you probably don't even know the shitstorm that some fans have risen when Reimu's skirt have been shortened for hopeless masquerade....

To be fair Hopeless Masquerade wasn't ZUN's art, and IIRC he wasn't particularly happy with how short they made Mononobe no Futo's skirt in that game (I've tried to find a source for this though and couldn't find it, so maybe I'm just remembering things wrong).

[Bananamatic]

Touhou

creepy fan-service anime garbage

can we put an upper age limit on forum registration already

[PuToTyra]

Your failure to understand Touhou as a whole coupled with your idiotic views that aesthetics > gameplay just make you look like a moron tbh. I bet you don't even score.

I can 1cc some games on lunatic, so dunno about that...

But you can't score, so your opinion on Touhou's aestethics is objectively wrong.

And what's worse, I value aesthetic over gameplay! What the hell is wrong with me....

Also, you probably don't even know the shitstorm that some fans have risen when Reimu's skirt have been shortened for hopeless masquerade....

To be fair Hopeless Masquerade wasn't ZUN's art, and IIRC he wasn't particularly happy with how short they made Mononobe no Futo's skirt in that game (I've tried to find a source for this though and couldn't find it, so maybe I'm just remembering things wrong).

I know, but design is still his.
To be honest, Kokoro and later, Sumireko, gave me hope that Zun might be going back to his old character design style, but lolk proved me wrong.

I can still play games with "simple" aesthetics (ChoRenSha for instance) but the creepy fan-service anime garbage is just so offputting and disturbing to me, I'm just done right from the start with that crap.

For me, Touhou was the franchise that convinced me that not everything from Japan and drawn in "anime" style is creepy fan-service.

[pegboy]

Even if Touhou isn't creepy fan service, it still looks like absolute shit. Is that better?

[Ako]

Touhou

creepy fan-service anime garbage

can we put an upper age limit on forum registration already

no

[Nameschonvergeben]

time for another poll

[konmai]

everything from Japan and drawn in "anime" style is creepy fan-service.

If this is what you legitimately believed until that one dignified series descended from the heavens and showed you the light then you are a massive, ignorant moron. I'm not pulling any punches here.

the creepy fan-service anime garbage

Really curious where this is among a bunch of lowres sprites, bullets, talking portraits and photoshopped backgrounds. Maybe you just inhaled a bit too much of 2hu doujinshi beforehand.

[PuToTyra]

everything from Japan and drawn in "anime" style is creepy fan-service.

If this is what you legitimately believed until that one dignified series descended from the heavens and showed you the light then you are a massive, ignorant moron. I'm not pulling any punches here.

I also believed that Japan is a country full of mentally ill degenerates and Japanese media are all retarded.

[trap15]

So you are a massive, ignorant moron then, good to know.