Touhou 14 demo released: Something about a bomb

[chum]

Mystic Square gives them based on amount of point items, just like PCB and IN, so It's a form of scoring.

Touhou 3 gives you two extends (both score-based) and people hardly ever get the second one, esepcially not on low difficulties, because it requires too much scoring. Touhou 9 gives you a lot of extends, all score-based as well, and if you're not scoring you're not gonna get them all. Touhou 12.8 gives extends based on freezing, which is the primary scoring mechanic, so that's another scoring = survival game. To get resources in UFO, you have to use its primary mechanic, you have to fill up UFOs with items or you wont get many resources. In the end, the amount of games that require you to do some form of scoring to get extends is the vast majority. Of course the difference between scoring play (more active) and survival play (more passive) is pretty considerable in most of these games.

You can keep crying and using buzzwords like elitist and casual, but in reality you're just completely clueless... I know fully well how newcomers tend to play and think, I've been one myself. Besides, from what I've seen of this forum, people have always been elitist towards Touhou around here, saying all kinds of idiotic things about the games. If you can't handle that some fans (such as myself) stick up for these games and defend them with actual facts about the gameplay, you feel like you have to call us 'elitists', then you are a sad person indeed.

[O. Van Bruce]

I think lgb properly responded to that already:

FUCK THOSE DUMB KIDS, THEY DON'T PLAY GAMES. DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO CLAIM IT'S ELITISM, BECAUSE IT'S THE GOD DAMNED TRUTH. EVEN IF THEY MAKE IT OUT TO BE A MEME TOO, IT STILL ENDS UP BEING TRUE ANYWAY.

Yep, completely clear how high in his throne he feels. If it weren't for those "dumb kids" Touhou wouldn't be halve what it is.

Anyway trap15 try another way of calming yourself.

[Skykid]

Aww touhou players fighting with each other about touhou.

So kawaii.

[O. Van Bruce]

Chum, I do like Touhou, I started playing danmaku with Touhou and I still play touhou sporadically. I'm not a touhou hater but I can see flaws in the gameplay. It's ok if you find then "agressive"... I think that the game doesn't forces you to become aggressive, doesn't encourages you to become an scorer... given the huge quantity of Touhou players out there, why do you think that the proportion of scorers is so small?

Another issue is how I understand aggresiveness. Yeah, Touhou can be played very agressively but only when you are scoring and when you are playing on hard/lunatic. But the gameplay becomes very passive when you are doing a normal run and you don't want to die by a bullet you didn't see.

I've seem a group of "dumb kids" streaming on /jp/ trying to get their normal 1cc's and they behave very timidly during their runs. Very passively. And the games don't help then to become aggresive. To score like you described on your post.

[O. Van Bruce]

Aww touhou players fighting with each other about touhou.

So kawaii.

damm you

thoug I have to recognize this isn't as pointless as when the moeblob raging happens.

[Formless God]

At least it's mechanics talk instead of all the autistic shit that took up 90% of the SDOJ thread.

[chum]

Aww touhou players fighting with each other about touhou.

So kawaii.

12427 posts and still going. I'm glad you're sharing all your insight with all the others members of this community.

OVB, thanks for your calm response (no sarcasm) but I still don't really get your point, if you have one. Why do the games have to "force" you to become aggressive? I've said it before, Touhou isn't so different in this regard. How do you think I got my first DoDonPachi 1-all or my first Armed Police Batrider Normal Course clear? Certainly not by scoring, I just sat comfortably at the bottom of the screen, there was literally no incentive or reason to play "aggressively" in those games, because very few games actually "force" you to do that.

People are different. When I started playing Touhou, I quickly got interested in making that score count get higher, and looked for ways to increase it. Not everyone will care about that, no matter if they're playing Touhou or arcade STG.

[moonshine]

Aww touhou players fighting with each other about touhou.

So kawaii.

12427 posts and still going. I'm glad you're sharing all your insight with all the others members of this community.

Insight is kind of wasted here. Judging from the last three pages you already found that out.

[AntiFritz]

Chum, I do like Touhou, I started playing danmaku with Touhou and I still play touhou sporadically. I'm not a touhou hater but I can see flaws in the gameplay. It's ok if you find then "agressive"... I think that the game doesn't forces you to become aggressive, doesn't encourages you to become an scorer... given the huge quantity of Touhou players out there, why do you think that the proportion of scorers is so small?

Another issue is how I understand aggresiveness. Yeah, Touhou can be played very agressively but only when you are scoring and when you are playing on hard/lunatic. But the gameplay becomes very passive when you are doing a normal run and you don't want to die by a bullet you didn't see.

I've seem a group of "dumb kids" streaming on /jp/ trying to get their normal 1cc's and they behave very timidly during their runs. Very passively. And the games don't help then to become aggresive. To score like you described on your post.

Not taking into account the last few pages but I largely agree with this post. I've been playing touhou off and on for a few years now and I've never once tried playing for score. I've always felt that the game play never really encouraged me to and as I play for survival, never felt it to much benefit with that either (ignoring stuff like collecting point icons for extra lives because I don't see that as explicitly "playing for score").

But when I play other shmups I feel it's different. I can't help but try to point blank and use the correct shot types in Futari Original, or to use Kakusei in Espgaluda for example. Even when each touhou game has vastly different "gimmicks", I've never found that any of them felt "natural" to me. Never a piece of a larger puzzle, always seemed tacked on.

[Acid_Rain]

The ZUN is shining everyday.

sry.

[O. Van Bruce]

Why do the games have to "force" you to become aggressive?

because this:

But when I play other shmups I feel it's different. I can't help but try to point blank and use the correct shot types in Futari Original, or to use Kakusei in Espgaluda for example. Even when each touhou game has vastly different "gimmicks", I've never found that any of them felt "natural" to me. Never a piece of a larger puzzle, always seemed tacked on.

Touhou scoring isn't very fun until you reach a certain skill. Before that it feels like a drag or something problematic. There are other games that are fun just to score on then, even if you can't 1cc it. Have you ever met a Touhou player that started scoring before getting the 1cc? In contrast, how many people try to score, at least minimally in Cave games before getting the 1cc? As Cagar mentioned, there are moments in which Touhou becomes a drag.

People are different. When I started playing Touhou, I quickly got interested in making that score count get higher, and looked for ways to increase it. Not everyone will care about that, no matter if they're playing Touhou or arcade STG.

You are part of the minority that gets interested quickly on scoring. Most guys just want to get their 1cc's or only have fun with the games.

PD: I'm realy having a difficult time trying to express what I think because I must write in english. damm me.

[Cagar]

I think the greatest problem with touhou scoring being lame and uninteresting to big portion of players, is the fact that it has almost zero visual candy or some other greatness like flashing numbers, big shiny stars etc.
While in CAVE games you learn most of the scoring system if you just play for a hour or two (OR the game gives you tutorial, like espgaluda).
In touhou... well in touhou.. I think the only scoring system I understood 100% after 1ccing it was MoF...

TL:DR; Touhou doesn't have visual candy for scoring, and the scoring systems are too complex for beginners.

EDIT: And this comes completely from my own experience. I've seen people restarting stage 1 for score in cave games even if they can't reach stage 3 if they kept going, and I've seen people quit touhou after one run to stage 3 and calling it boring. Same people, I mean.
EDIT2: More than one person, and including myself. I know this doesn't apply for everyone

[Udderdude]

Why don't you kids like the toohoos :O

[chum]

But when I play other shmups I feel it's different. I can't help but try to point blank and use the correct shot types in Futari Original, or to use Kakusei in Espgaluda for example. Even when each touhou game has vastly different "gimmicks", I've never found that any of them felt "natural" to me. Never a piece of a larger puzzle, always seemed tacked on.

They are definitely not tacked on, but you are free to think whatever you want. I would ask people to get some experience or try to understand the games, watch some WRs and read the wiki... before they call the systems boring, at least, but I do know that is too much to ask for around here. I don't know your story (aside from what you mentioned about lack of experience) but by all means you're entitled to your opinion.

Touhou scoring isn't very fun until you reach a certain skill. Before that it feels like a drag or something problematic. There are other games that are fun just to score on then, even if you can't 1cc it. Have you ever met a Touhou player that started scoring before getting the 1cc? In contrast, how many people try to score, at least minimally in Cave games before getting the 1cc? As Cagar mentioned, there are moments in which Touhou becomes a drag.

People are different. When I started playing Touhou, I quickly got interested in making that score count get higher, and looked for ways to increase it. Not everyone will care about that, no matter if they're playing Touhou or arcade STG.

You are part of the minority that gets interested quickly on scoring. Most guys just want to get their 1cc's or only have fun with the games.

PD: I'm realy having a difficult time trying to express what I think because I must write in english. damm me.

Ok, if you're gonna drop the silly elitist comments (I hope you have) then I'll make this my last reply since it seems like we're actually getting somewhere.

In the end, opinions will be opinions, and facts will be facts, I've mostly tried to stick to facts when I defended these games, because really who the hell gives a shit about my opinion. What bugs me is when people have all these awkward opinions based on lack of understanding and knowledge. Personally, I did not try to score in most of my CAVE 1ccs. Guwange and EspGaluda (but only because of STGT) are the only ones I tried scoring in after I 1cc'd. To me the systems aren't more compelling in CAVE games, It's certainly not a solid fact that CAVE games are "better" like Cagar kept telling me. As far as scoring before 1cc:ing is concerned, I think the reason why people don't do that in Touhou is because clearing a Touhou game is a pretty trivial matter, while scoring is much, much harder. If Touhou only had the Lunatic mode, less people would be clearing Touhou, and by contrast you'd have a bigger percentage of players that tried to score, I think. It does depend on the game, scoring in CAVE games is more survival-oriented, while scoring in Touhou games is more risk oriented. It's pretty masochistic to even think about scoring EoSD, SA or UFO before you've cleared them (for Lunatic)

I always figured I was part of the minority because most Touhou fans aren't Touhou players, It seems to me that actual Touhou players often try playing for score or at least have some kind of knowledge. By that I don't mean STG players that try out Touhou once or twice and denounce them as boring or whatever else. The Japanese certainly seem to like games like MoF, PCB, IN and UFO for score. The royalflare Touhou leaderboards are much more active and competitive than the entire highscore section of this forum (all games) so if you or others think nobody cares about scoring in Touhou then you're quite deluded. Just saying.

Edit: forgot about the "aggression" thing you've been talking about. You still didn't explain that. Not many shmups force you to be aggressive, neither CAVE games (aside from Ketsui? anything else?) or Touhou do that. Touhou games are flexible because people of any skill level can enjoy them.

[Udderdude]

I think the issue here is that you're approaching this with the idea that the players are the problem for not finding the game fun or "doing research first", whereas a more realistic view is that the games don't do enough to draw players into playing them for score in the first place. ESPGaluda and Guwange's scoring actually tie together with survival quite nicely, as do most of CAVE's other games.

A well designed shmup is going to be exciting from the moment you start playing it all the way to getting a high level score .. Touhou games don't do that well at all, you have to look past the bland presentation and stages, and the fact that they're relatively easy to clear, if you want to get into scoring them well.

Although it seems there's a large following of people playing Touhou games for score already, this might be because of the huge size of the fandom ..

[chum]

I think the issue here is that you're approaching this with the idea that the players are the problem for not finding the game fun or "doing research first", whereas a more realistic view is that the games don't do enough to draw players into playing them for score in the first place. ESPGaluda and Guwange's scoring actually tie together with survival quite nicely, as do most of CAVE's other games.

A well designed shmup is going to be exciting from the moment you start playing it all the way to getting a high level score .. Touhou games don't do that well at all, you have to look past the bland presentation and stages, and the fact that they're relatively easy to clear, if you want to get into scoring them well.

Although it seems there's a large following of people playing Touhou games for score already, this might be because of the huge size of the fandom ..

Almost but not quite. I don't believe that people are wrong for not finding it fun. I don't find scoring fun or particularly interesting in some of the Touhou games. But, please, do some damn research before you start spouting nonsense. That's all I ever asked.

ESPGaluda and Guwange's scoring doesn't tie together with survival any more nicely than, say, IN's scoring. Overall, however, I think you are right that CAVE's games are more approachable right from the start. I'm kind of annoyed that Touhou always gets compared to CAVE though because the games are vastly different. But I ask, why is it "bad" for scoring to be a difficult, and different task? People love Battle Garegga around here, after all, and that's another game that will leave you asking "just why do I need to do this?" often, another game that you can't just start scoring in right away, because it is different, unapproachable, doesn't always make sense.

If you do get into scoring in Touhou, you will find that the stages are not nearly as bland as they may initially appear.

[O. Van Bruce]

"The scoring in Espgaluda, Guwange and Battle Garegga isn't tied to survival".

nope.jpg

I'd prefer someone to explain this instead of me. I'll do it later if no one does it.

[Giest118]

"The scoring in Espgaluda, Guwange and Battle Garegga isn't tied to survival".

nope.jpg

I'd prefer someone to explain this instead of me. I'll do it later if no one does it.

1) He didn't say "Battle Garegga" in that statement.
2) He said "any more than IN" immediately after your false quote.

You're welcome. You are free to dispute the post he actually made now.

[O. Van Bruce]

"The scoring in Espgaluda, Guwange and Battle Garegga isn't tied to survival".

nope.jpg

I'd prefer someone to explain this instead of me. I'll do it later if no one does it.

1) He didn't say "Battle Garegga" in that statement.
2) He said "any more than IN" immediately after your false quote.

You're welcome. You are free to dispute the post he actually made now.

forgive me but IN survival is barely tied to scoring. The only thing that relates both things are the point items and the strategical use of the cancelling properties of enemy familiars.

in contrast you need to use Kakusei in Espgaluda in order to survive and get enough score for your extends. It happens similarly on Guwang: you need to keep using your familiar to stop and cancel bullets or you'll be overwhelmed by the enemies, some of then you can't even kill with your normal shot.

I'll concede that I may have missunderstood the garegga part but that game doesn't even have a survival route: it's scoring or diying.

[O. Van Bruce]

before continuing, what are we debating?

- That Touhou has some flaws that should be adressed?

- That Touhou is boring compared to other games?

this has become a mixture of the 2 issues mentioned above. I started this by pointing that TD brought in some elements that would improve the gameplay (ZUN implemented then badly though). Survival became closer to scoring and the gameplay earned some dynamism. But when I mentioned that Touhou gameplay is slow and sometimes boring for a survivalist the discussion took a turn to the second issue. This was not my intention.

Let's concentrate in the first issue since it is the more valid for a debate.

[chum]

The aforementioned UFO and GFW do pretty much force you to make use of their scoring mechanics, or you will have a pretty hard time with them. Anyway, the point has never been "Touhou forces players to play a certain way just like CAVE games do".

Why is forcing players to play a certain way better than giving players a choice, or rather, why does scoring have to be completely approachable right from the start? In the end, it seems like all the whiners just wants Touhou to be more like CAVE. CAVE doesn't have a monopoly on shmups. If you really want a game which is as approachable as any CAVE game, play some damn MoF.

You still didn't explain the thing about aggression.

I started this by pointing that TD brought in some elements that would improve the gameplay (ZUN implemented then badly though). Survival became closer to scoring and the gameplay earned some dynamism

Ok... you're just beyond hope now

[O. Van Bruce]

Most players on UFO don't go all out and try to get all the red UFO's on screen, specially since tjey are to o abumdant throughout the game. You can actually have a full set of lives ju with the UFO's of the first 3 stages. So no real planning is needed to get a decent surplus of lives in the game + bombs in that game rapes the bosses.

GFW is an exception to the rule, yeah. I'd even venture saying it is the most fun to play gameplay system ZUN has created. Pity it didn't click with the Touhou fanbase and so few people outside it has played it.


So, may I inquire why am I beyond any hope?

[Erppo]

I'll concede that I may have missunderstood the garegga part but that game doesn't even have a survival route: it's scoring or diying.

what

[O. Van Bruce]

I'll concede that I may have missunderstood the garegga part but that game doesn't even have a survival route: it's scoring or diying.

what

getting game over, man.

[Erppo]

I'll concede that I may have missunderstood the garegga part but that game doesn't even have a survival route: it's scoring or diying.

what

getting game over, man.

No, I mean you're just making stuff up now. A normal clear of Garegga can very well have less than half of the score you could get if you played well.

[O. Van Bruce]

you need to score somehow to get at least some extra lives and then suicide safely to lower the rank. Also, you need to learn a lot of stuff related to the scoring to not let the rank go crazy.

there exists a no-miss no-bomb clear for garegga?

[trap15]

Proof of ignorance.

[O. Van Bruce]

Proof of ignorance.

Well I was under the impression that you needed to suicide whatever you wanted or not in garegga. That's why I asked if someone had done a no-miss no-bomb clear of garegga: Because I wasn't sure about my knowledge.

So, Trap, how do you get a survival clear on garegga? now that you claim that suiciding isn't neccesary. Or why are you calling me ignorant then?

Once again, calm down Trap.

[trap15]

Rank is vastly overstated in Garegga. Yes suiciding is important, no it's not something you have to go crazy on the scoring to accomplish successfully.

A survival run would mostly include just collecting medals. No need for all the crazy boss tactics and destructible scenery. Bomb when you like rather than at pre-defined points. There are a multitude of ways you can play Garegga with a sub-optimal score.

EDIT: And I won't calm down until people stop parroting ignorant ideas about how these games work. It's really annoying, and I'm sick of it.

[O. Van Bruce]

That's exactly what I said. You need some measure of conscious scoring. There is gray bettwen black and white. Anyway I'm sure that most people suicide before certain bosses to lower the rank before facing then for survival purposes.

And trap, you aren't angry about this discusion.