XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Das Muel]

Finally got my hands on a Mini a few days ago. Can't get over how good the de-interlacing is on this thing. I run 480i material in 480p to a PC CRT monitor and it perfectly recreates the softness (in the nicest possible sense) and beautifully saturated colours you used to get on good 60hz RGB Scart enabled CRT TVs back in the day, minus the nasty flickering. I actually prefer the original Xbox's RGB scart output to its 480p component output (with its comparatively dim, murky colours). Takes me right back to my first year at university in 2002, eating bacon sandwiches and smoking reefer in sub-zero temperatures while staring at Shenmue 2 in awe on my 21" Grundig. If only my Saturn didn't give me nasty jailbars, my setup would be complete. Here's hoping a C-sync cable solves the problem.

[Fudoh]

Can't get over how good the de-interlacing is on this thing

indeed. It's really great.

On your earlier posting you said that the jailbars only show up on some output resolutions. Can you elaborate on that ? Any examples (games) on which you see them and others where you don't ?

[Das Muel]

Can't get over how good the de-interlacing is on this thing

indeed. It's really great.

On your earlier posting you said that the jailbars only show up on some output resolutions. Can you elaborate on that ? Any examples (games) on which you see them and others where you don't ?

I get jailbars in the Saturn's most commonly used output mode (352x224p?). This includes Sega Rally, Nights Into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon series, CPS2 conversions etc. It also seems to affect the high res interlaced games (VF2, Last Bronx, Athlete Kings etc. 704x408i?). However, I DON'T get jailbars with the Sega Ages arcade conversions (Afterburner, Outrun, Space Harrier, Galaxy Force 2 - 320x224p?). I also don't get it on the Action Replay cartridge's menu, or indeed the Saturn's "Home" system menu. Presumably this material is rendered at a slightly different resolution (320x224p vs 352x224p?). The problem doesn't affect my Sony PVM, my old Trinitron CRT TV or the XRGB2+, but it does affect my Mini, XPC-4 and my LED TV. Weird.
If I adjust the "Skew" setting on the Mini, the jailbars roll to the side, but they are always visible.

I'm using an NTSC white model 2 Saturn (from Thailand. As far as I know it's basically a Japanese Saturn with a 220V power supply) with a Euro RGB scart lead. Clearly there's something peculiar about my setup as it doesn't seem to affect the vast majority of users.

[squall139]

hi,

nobody can help me for my problems (page 298) please ? on my samsung tv led, i don't like my picture on xrgb mini with consoles ps one and ps two. I became crazy. i regret almost this xrgb mini , this price was very expensive.... some people talk that xrgb 3 is better than my xrgb mini for ps one and ps2...

[hipstir]

hi,

nobody can help me for my problems (page 298) please ? on my samsung tv led, i don't like my picture on xrgb mini with consoles ps one and ps two. I became crazy. i regret almost this xrgb mini , this price was very expensive.... some people talk that xrgb 3 is better than my xrgb mini for ps one and ps2...

I felt the same way until I used FBX profiles. PM me if u still need help and his profiles are designed to be used with the 1080p resolution.

[squall139]

hi,

nobody can help me for my problems (page 298) please ? on my samsung tv led, i don't like my picture on xrgb mini with consoles ps one and ps two. I became crazy. i regret almost this xrgb mini , this price was very expensive.... some people talk that xrgb 3 is better than my xrgb mini for ps one and ps2...

I felt the same way until I used FBX profiles. PM me if u still need help and his profiles are designed to be used with the 1080p resolution.

thank you beforehand. You think the mini xrgb is really good on tv samsung led ( mine) with playstation and playstation 2 ? I begin to despair. Ok i send a PM for more informations.

[Andyp]

Hi, I have been having the same flickering screen issues with PAL ps1, ps2, GameCube and mega drive!

My other consoles work fine. Snes, pc engine, Saturn and dreamcast.
I have bought new RGB cables as I was using cheap ones but this hasn't made any difference!

Will the FBX Profile make a difference and is there a link to them? I've tried searching.

Thanks

Andyp

[axlblazeadam]

Hi, I have been having the same flickering screen issues with PAL ps1, ps2, GameCube and mega drive!

My other consoles work fine. Snes, pc engine, Saturn and dreamcast.
I have bought new RGB cables as I was using cheap ones but this hasn't made any difference!

Will the FBX Profile make a difference and is there a link to them? I've tried searching.

Thanks

Andyp

Not so hard to find, here they are: http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... ofiles.zip

Note that these are only for NTSC systems... They worked for me (i'm on PAL too), but you need to adjust the zoom settings to fit the screen.

[Pasky]

FBX, I noticed in the SNS5X profile that there's some pixel's being clipped off at the top of the screen in chrono trigger, quite a bit gets chopped off actually, were you aware of this?

EDIT:

Nevermind, read your instructions.txt, apparently it's known 4 pixels are cropped from top and bottom.

[FBX]

FBX, I noticed in the SNS5X profile that there's some pixel's being clipped off at the top of the screen in chrono trigger, quite a bit gets chopped off actually, were you aware of this?

EDIT:

Nevermind, read your instructions.txt, apparently it's known 4 pixels are cropped from top and bottom.

Correct. Use 4x if you want the entire picture, and it's also useful for scanlines.

[RushJet1]

I don't know if it's somewhere else in this thread, and I've looked but there are 200+ pages, so here's my problem:

Composite output on the Genesis to the XRGB-mini has colors flicker all over the place. I have both a model-1 and model-2 Genesis, and both exhibit the same behavior. I have a video of this in action (the title screen shows it off best). Please excuse the actual color temps as the settings were messed up when I recorded this, but it happens even when the colors look correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TUhzbCml3s

Any ideas why it does this with the XRGB? If I hook it up to my TV, the colors are fine but then it looks way uglier + more input lag than HDMI, so the XRGB is better.

[it290]

Hey guys. Sorry if this has been answered before, but there's a lot to scan through here. Hopefully, someone has tried this before and knows the answer:

I've had a Framemeister for a while, and just received a shiny PC Engine Duo R in the mail. I love the system, but the composite video output through the Framemeister has my heart hurting. I plan on doing an RGB mod, but given that I'll only be using the system through the Framemeister, is it necessary to add the RGB amp? Will I get a better result from doing so? I would prefer to avoid it if the picture quality won't be affected significantly.

[FBX]

I don't know if it's somewhere else in this thread, and I've looked but there are 200+ pages, so here's my problem:

Composite output on the Genesis to the XRGB-mini has colors flicker all over the place. I have both a model-1 and model-2 Genesis, and both exhibit the same behavior. I have a video of this in action (the title screen shows it off best). Please excuse the actual color temps as the settings were messed up when I recorded this, but it happens even when the colors look correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TUhzbCml3s

Any ideas why it does this with the XRGB? If I hook it up to my TV, the colors are fine but then it looks way uglier + more input lag than HDMI, so the XRGB is better.

The Framemeister picks up the finer details on how bad Genesis composite picture quality is. You need to get an RGB SCART or JP21 cable. If you go the SCART route, you'll need to get a SCART adapter for the Framemeister. If you go the JP21 route, it will work with the adapter that comes with the Framemeister.

Now the Framemeister does have some inherent flicker in solid colors, but it's nowhere near as bad as in that video.

[CkRtech]

I plan on doing an RGB mod, but given that I'll only be using the system through the Framemeister, is it necessary to add the RGB amp? Will I get a better result from doing so? I would prefer to avoid it if the picture quality won't be affected significantly.

You will still get a picture, but it won't look nearly as good as with an amp. Why would you not want to put an amp in there? Cost?

Also - If you haven't done so already, you'll want to mod it to remove the jail bar issue. Details are available here - http://etim.net.au/av-driver/pcebars/

[Elrinth]

Does anyone have really good settings overall or profiles for rgbmodded NES and or more consoles to get vibrant colors?
I feel the colors are washed out and dull all the time on my HDtv for all the consoles.

Now only console I have which isn't RGB, D-Terminal or HDMI is the Pc-Fx. <3 love the framemeister. Just ordered a PSP d-terminal cable aswell, just need to get myself the right model now aswell, as my old 1000-model doesn't have video output.

[FBX]

Does anyone have really good settings overall or profiles for rgbmodded NES and or more consoles to get vibrant colors?
I feel the colors are washed out and dull all the time on my HDtv for all the consoles.

You can't increase the saturation for RGB sources, only reduce it via the red-green-blue settings. Otherwise, you'll need to turn your HDTV's saturation up directly. The colors already should be quite vibrant as it is, so I'd say your display is to blame.

I've got a full assortment of RGB profiles for the NES here:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... ofiles.zip

You'll find 4x and 5x scale profiles, as well as 4L, 5L, and OS. The "L" profiles cover up the left side underscan that some of the Mega Man games and SMB3 make use of. The "OS" profile is good for Legend of Zelda or any game that uses graphic artwork all the way out to 240 lines.

[Shuco13]

You can't increase the saturation for RGB sources, only reduce it via the red-green-blue settings. Otherwise, you'll need to turn your HDTV's saturation up directly. The colors already should be quite vibrant as it is, so I'd say your display is to blame.

This is only partially true. The red-green-blue setting primarily changes color balance, as a sideeffect also brightness. Given the correct preset (RGB/AUTO and FULL/LIMITED control) I'd only use BRIGHTNESS and A/D level to adjust saturation and leave everything else untouched if I had no means to verify it.

[FBX]

You can't increase the saturation for RGB sources, only reduce it via the red-green-blue settings. Otherwise, you'll need to turn your HDTV's saturation up directly. The colors already should be quite vibrant as it is, so I'd say your display is to blame.

This is only partially true. The red-green-blue setting primarily changes color balance, as a sideeffect also brightness. Given the correct preset (RGB/AUTO and FULL/LIMITED control) I'd only use BRIGHTNESS and A/D level to adjust saturation and leave everything else untouched if I had no means to verify it.

Not a good idea messing with A/D. Adjusting A/D even slightly starts to crush colors together (SMW shrub greens for example). You never want to adjust that more than a few points, and leaving it at 128 is a safe bet. As such, brightness will not really help saturation. So as I said, there's no real way to increase saturation on RGB sources via the Framemeister.

Edit: But you are right in that lowering RGB values would seemingly just reduce brightness itself. In that regard, there's no way to safely reduce or increase saturation one way or another for RGB sources. It has to be done display-side.

[CkRtech]

Not a good idea messing with A/D.

Tweaking A/D can help reduce some of the visual impact of the framemeister's inherent noise in solid colors. I recall having to mess with it a bit to make Shining in the Darkness look a bit better (that is to say "less distracting").

[FBX]

Not a good idea messing with A/D.

Tweaking A/D can help reduce some of the visual impact of the framemeister's inherent noise in solid colors. I recall having to mess with it a bit to make Shining in the Darkness look a bit better (that is to say "less distracting").

It actually doesn't reduce it, but rather shifts it to a different tone/hue. So when you adjust it a few points to make a solid color seemingly become less noisy, the noise will just shift to another color in a different game or different stage of the same game. I spent hours and hours obsessively trying to hide it using A/D, but in the end, it will always show up in one game or another. For example, I remember finding a balance of A/D and Gamma that seemingly made Mega Man X noise free, but it ended up making A Link to the Past extra noisy. There's just no universal setting, and then I discovered going more than a few points up in A/D was crushing colors anyway.

All this is really moot though. The simple fact of the original request is there's no good way to adjust saturation for RGB sources on the Framemeister. You'll end up crushing colors if you use A/D, and the RGB values won't help either.

[CkRtech]

All this is really moot though. The simple fact of the original request is there's no good way to adjust saturation for RGB sources on the Framemeister. You'll end up crushing colors if you use A/D, and the RGB values won't help either.

I dunno. I will gladly crush colors if it helps eliminate noise on a particular game, but I mostly leave my settings alone and just play the games.

[RGB32E]

All this is really moot though. The simple fact of the original request is there's no good way to adjust saturation for RGB sources on the Framemeister. You'll end up crushing colors if you use A/D, and the RGB values won't help either.

If anything, that's where your monitor/TV settings come in handy. Based off of the cables I've built myself, the A/D level sweet spot for my SNES 1-CHIP01 is 131. I use the "Live Color" setting on my XBR8 to season different consoles accordingly. The SNES falls between low and medium (wide color on). The PCE systems on the other hand are a completely different matter...

[Shuco13]

It actually doesn't reduce it, but rather shifts it to a different tone/hue. So when you adjust it a few points to make a solid color seemingly become less noisy, the noise will just shift to another color in a different game or different stage of the same game.

Exactly. This is why it is completly useless for hiding noise unless you set it ridiculously high/low.

All this is really moot though. The simple fact of the original request is there's no good way to adjust saturation for RGB sources on the Framemeister. You'll end up crushing colors if you use A/D, and the RGB values won't help either.

As I've already said it has to be used in conjunction with the brightness setting. A correctly set TV is mandatory anyway.
In the end adjusting the A/D level +5/-5 doesn't do any harm if you know what you're doing. If you don't you better leave it untouched or you might indeed crush or clip your output.

[wyvernshill]

I think i might have a problem with my framemeister in general.

I bought it about a year ago, never used it much, just from time to time.
Lately it has happened a few times that i power on the framemeister but the tv doesnt show the blue screen but just displays snow (like the old CRT tv's that had no signal). The image keeps flickering but only gives snow.
Turning on one of my consoles doesnt do anything, the signal on tv keeps displaying noise, not even sound is processed.
Turning the power on and off of the framemeister doesn't help. I need to disconnect the power cord, then wait a few seconds and then it works again.
Mind you it only did it three times or so but it makes me a bit scared that my framemeister might be dying.

Did anyone else experience this and can i ignore it as something that "happens" sometimes or is there more to it ?

[Thomago]

Not a good idea messing with A/D. djusting A/D even slightly starts to crush colors together (SMW shrub greens for example). You never want to adjust that more than a few points, and leaving it at 128 is a safe bet. As such, brightness will not really help saturation. So as I said, there's no real way to increase saturation on RGB sources via the Framemeister.

Actually I think it's a *very* good idea to be messing with A/D. I always set it so that anything that should be pure white (e. g. the bright shine surrounding selected items in the PS2's memory card menu) actually becomes pure white, which, for all of my sources, means a healthy increase. Going above that will crush colors, but staying below that will crush colors as well as your monitor/TV won't display your source's full contrast range. And needlessly to say, maximizing the contrast range this way tremendously helps overall picture appearance.

[Thomago]

I might add that before calibrating A/D-LEVEL as described above the black level (BRIGHTNESS) needs to be set up correctly. For RGB sources I found the standard setting (25) to be perfect each time I tried (increasing it would always result in stuff that was pure black before becoming slightly grayish), but for Component sources an increase might be needed.

[FBX]

Not a good idea messing with A/D. djusting A/D even slightly starts to crush colors together (SMW shrub greens for example). You never want to adjust that more than a few points, and leaving it at 128 is a safe bet. As such, brightness will not really help saturation. So as I said, there's no real way to increase saturation on RGB sources via the Framemeister.

Actually I think it's a *very* good idea to be messing with A/D. I always set it so that anything that should be pure white (e. g. the bright shine surrounding selected items in the PS2's memory card menu) actually becomes pure white, which, for all of my sources, means a healthy increase. Going above that will crush colors, but staying below that will crush colors as well as your monitor/TV won't display your source's full contrast range. And needlessly to say, maximizing the contrast range this way tremendously helps overall picture appearance.

I determined going anything above 140 crushes colors visibly, so if you're going above that, you likely are crushing colors on your games. This is why I don't think it's a good idea to be adjusting anything beyond a few points in A/D because the default gives the widest range without clipping/crushing.

[Thomago]

In color bar tests and the like I couldn't make out any signs of crushed colors, but then again, I'm always using DVI output mode and a PC monitor... that might make a difference as well.

[FBX]

In color bar tests and the like I couldn't make out any signs of crushed colors, but then again, I'm always using DVI output mode and a PC monitor... that might make a difference as well.

It's possible. I just only tested HDMI mode myself using the SNES, which is much more 'sensitive' to A/D adjustments.

[it290]

I plan on doing an RGB mod, but given that I'll only be using the system through the Framemeister, is it necessary to add the RGB amp? Will I get a better result from doing so? I would prefer to avoid it if the picture quality won't be affected significantly.

You will still get a picture, but it won't look nearly as good as with an amp. Why would you not want to put an amp in there? Cost?

Also - If you haven't done so already, you'll want to mod it to remove the jail bar issue. Details are available here - http://etim.net.au/av-driver/pcebars/

I'd read somewhere that the amp isn't needed with the XRGB because the device compensates for it. I have no objection to installing one, just don't want to if I can get an equivalent picture either way.