XRGB-mini Framemeister

[bonzo.bits]

I'll give this a go. Any RGB-21 cables you would recommend?

I've purchased a few cables from Retro Gaming Accessories on Ebay. Good quality and performance.

[wyvernshill]

Lo everyone,

I applied the 2.00a update today and everything seems ok, i tried using the profiles fxb made for snes and they worked perfectly.
However i have a ps2 connected with d-terminal (component) and im noticing something very odd.

Rotating the camera produced a rather choppy image, it just wasnt smooth. Turning on the scanlines i can see the image is very flickery.
Its like the game runs half speed, dropped frames or something like that.

I use a sony tv on game profile, so i have no extras interfering with the image.
Changing image mode to movie or picture doesnt help.
Before the update i never had that issue.

Does anyone know how to fix it ?
Tv is at 1080p, framemeister as well and i tried the ps2 profiles for interlaced and progressive from fxb.

Thanks !

[FBX]

Lo everyone,

I applied the 2.00a update today and everything seems ok, i tried using the profiles fxb made for snes and they worked perfectly.
However i have a ps2 connected with d-terminal (component) and im noticing something very odd.

Rotating the camera produced a rather choppy image, it just wasnt smooth. Turning on the scanlines i can see the image is very flickery.
Its like the game runs half speed, dropped frames or something like that.

I use a sony tv on game profile, so i have no extras interfering with the image.
Changing image mode to movie or picture doesnt help.
Before the update i never had that issue.

Does anyone know how to fix it ?
Tv is at 1080p, framemeister as well and i tried the ps2 profiles for interlaced and progressive from fxb.

Thanks !

The flickering you are seeing attempting to use scanlines, as well as 'comb' artifacts you might see in fast animations is completely normal for 480i sources. Even when using the Framemeister's "NATURAL" deinterlace mode, it will never completely get rid of the combing effect. I noticed this myself while playing Capcom vs SNK 2. Now 480p PS2 games will look clean with my 480p PS2 profiles, but you need to know that:

A: The game supports 480p, as in this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... HD_support

and

B: How to enable 480p mode for the given game that supports it. This can be tricky to do when dealing with the Framemiester. For example in SSX 3, you have to hold triangle and X while the game is booting up until it asks if you want to switch to progressive mode. When you select "yes", you have to continue pressing the X button to confirm blindly because of the long delay while the Framemeister re-handshakes for the new red mode. If you don't keep pressing the X button while blind, the game will failsafe back to 480i and you have to reboot to try again.

As for the choppy slowness you described, I have no idea what could be causing that. Haven't noticed it on my end.

[wyvernshill]

First of all sorry i misspelled your name "FBX"

I understand its an interlaced signal, but i never had it flicker on my tv, not even when connected directly to my flatscreen.
Even the last firmware did not flicker for me (with scanlines on), granted i will not be using scanlines for the ps2 but it feels off.
The game where i noticed it immediately is Dragon Quest VIII (ntsc), when you open the party menu it fills the screen with a yellowish color. when you turn scanlines on i can see it flicker rather hard.

It's like the refresh rate is off, it's playable but its not like it should be. But the framemeister tells me the input signal is at 59.xx hz so it shouldn't be a problem.
As you know most ps2 games are just 480i.

I tried the PS2 through a RGB scart connection but it produced the same horrible flickering and on top of that a lot of noise/buzzing since the cable is not shielded.
Wierdly enough i couldn't hold a signal with the last firmware and the scart RGB, but with the new firmware it was rock solid.

Is it better to get a fully shielded scart cable for the ps2 or do i stick to component even if i'll never play in 480p ?

Thanks.

[jandrogo]

Anyone has tried the Framemeister with a Vita TV/Playstation TV?
Any pics to post?
Just curious about it, as I have a starting nice list of games to play with scanlines: Aqua Kitty Milk defender, Castlevania Dracula X Cronicles, etc...

[FBX]

First of all sorry i misspelled your name "FBX"

I understand its an interlaced signal, but i never had it flicker on my tv, not even when connected directly to my flatscreen.
Even the last firmware did not flicker for me (with scanlines on), granted i will not be using scanlines for the ps2 but it feels off.

Well I hadn't tried scanlines on 480i before 2.00a, so I couldn't tell you for sure if it's a firmware issue. However, the flicker only seems to be in how the scanlines are applied to the 480i source. So obviously you're not going to see any flicker when directly hooking the console up to your TV set. For now, the best recommendation is to not use scanlines for interlaced gaming sources.

Is it better to get a fully shielded scart cable for the ps2 or do i stick to component even if i'll never play in 480p ?

Thanks.

I suppose if you're not going to ever make use of the 480p feature on the PS2, then you might as well go with a fully shielded sync-on-luma RGB cable. I have both component and that cable, and I have to say the RGB cable is just a tad better for 2D games. For PS2 native polygonal games, the difference would be overshadowed by the aliasing issue, and my component profile makes use of focal blurring to soften those jagged edges. So here's my personal breakdown:

1. For PS1 emulation, use the Sync-on-Luma RGB cable.

2. For PS2 games that are predominantly 2D and 480i res, use the Sync-on-Luma RGB cable.

3. For PS2 games that are predominantly polygonal graphics or make use of 480p mode, use the component cable.

[wyvernshill]

Ok i tested a few things this morning before getting to work.

The flickering PS2 image with scanlines is only an issue on 1080p, the moment i switch to 720p everything is stable and non flickery.
So either my tv (Sony HX850) is trying to interfere on 1080p but it shouldn’t (i use the game profile and that applies no effects at all), or the framemeister is flipping over that particular combination of ingame resolution + 1080p + scanlines.
Granted i won't be using scanlines on 1080p ps2 material, but its still a weird behaviour.

Ok got another "problem", while using the SNES5X profile from FBX (tv on full pixel) i see that in some games (Chrono Trigger) the image "jumps" a few pixels up or down for a fraction of a second when displaying a dialog window.
It's not always an issue, but its enough to become annoying. Is anyone else experiencing this ?
I haven’t tried the 4X profile yet.

I use a 1-chip super famicom with an RGB scart cable

[NightSprinter]

The flickering most likely comes from the fact that Chrono Cross is one of the rare PS1 games that switches to 480i for menus. I remember this was one of the Mini's greatest weakness. How long does it take to switch from 240p to 480i for the menu?

[FBX]

Ok got another "problem", while using the SNES5X profile from FBX (tv on full pixel) i see that in some games (Chrono Trigger) the image "jumps" a few pixels up or down for a fraction of a second when displaying a dialog window.
It's not always an issue, but its enough to become annoying. Is anyone else experiencing this ?
I haven’t tried the 4X profile yet.

I can't imagine that being caused by my settings. That sounds like behavior coming from the SNES itself or perhaps your TV set having trouble with the feed.

Edit: Checked on my end and there's no jumping whatsoever. *shrugs

[BuckoA51]

I suppose if you're not going to ever make use of the 480p feature on the PS2, then you might as well go with a fully shielded sync-on-luma RGB cable. I have both component and that cable, and I have to say the RGB cable is just a tad better for 2D games. For PS2 native polygonal games, the difference would be overshadowed by the aliasing issue, and my component profile makes use of focal blurring to soften those jagged edges. So here's my personal breakdown:

1. For PS1 emulation, use the Sync-on-Luma RGB cable.

2. For PS2 games that are predominantly 2D and 480i res, use the Sync-on-Luma RGB cable.

3. For PS2 games that are predominantly polygonal graphics or make use of 480p mode, use the component cable.

For a hassle/swap free setup you can use an Extron RGB interface to convert between RGsB and RGBs, then you can have RGB cables for everything from 240p to 480p.

[TheShadowRunner]

For a hassle/swap free setup you can use an Extron RGB interface to convert between RGsB and RGBs, then you can have RGB cables for everything from 240p to 480p.

Still looking for an optimal solution for PS2 (hassle/swap free), I found this:
This dude modded the SCPH-10080 Multi-AV extender so as to replace the composite output on the side to Component.
http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~msx05612/kousaku/fmd20p.htm
With this device modded, one would have to plug a regular component cable on the side, to the D-terminal input on the Mini, and at the back of the extender just plug a regular RGB cable and connect it as usual to the front RGB input of the Mini.
With this solution, no need to swap cables anymore when changing between RGB and Component on PS2!
What do you guys think?
The real question is, is there any difference in picture quality when it comes to the Mini between:
- PS2 Component Multi-out -> directly -> to Dterminal input on Mini.
and
- PS2 Component Multi-out -> RGsB to RGBs conversion -> to RGB front input on the Mini.
If not, I think the modded Multi-AV extender solution isn't a bad idea at all..

[Fudoh]

What do you guys think?

I don't see the point, since you get both RGB and component signals through the RGB cable anyway, but you eventually still have to switch signals in the PS2's menu.

[TheShadowRunner]

What do you guys think?

I don't see the point, since you get both RGB and component signals through the RGB cable anyway, but you eventually still have to switch signals in the PS2's menu.

Of course you still have to switch signal in the PS2 menu, and to select the good input on the Mini.
But you don't need to swap cables anymore, you don't need to buy an Extron and power it up to convert RGsB to RGBs..

But there is a major flaw in this idea haha, wired this way there would be no audio for Component xD

Just out of curiosity though, I still would like to know this..
-----------
The real question is, is there any difference in picture quality when it comes to the Mini between:
- PS2 Component Multi-out -> directly -> to Dterminal input on Mini.
and
- PS2 Component Multi-out -> RGsB to RGBs conversion -> to RGB front input on the Mini.
----------

[austin532]

The flickering most likely comes from the fact that Chrono Cross is one of the rare PS1 games that switches to 480i for menus. I remember this was one of the Mini's greatest weakness. How long does it take to switch from 240p to 480i for the menu?

Trust me, there are plenty of PS1 games that switch to 480i for menus. It was and still is a major weakness for the mini that can not seem to be fixed as it's a hardware issue. I haven't timed it but it feels like it takes about 5 seconds to switch from 240p to 480i however it seems to take less time when switching back from 480i to 240p. Maybe around 4 seconds.

[BuckoA51]

Just out of curiosity though, I still would like to know this..
-----------
The real question is, is there any difference in picture quality when it comes to the Mini between:
- PS2 Component Multi-out -> directly -> to Dterminal input on Mini.
and
- PS2 Component Multi-out -> RGsB to RGBs conversion -> to RGB front input on the Mini.
----------

It's been well documented many times that the Mini's D-Terminal input kinda sucks, so yes, RGBs is going to be better.

[fafangus]

It's been well documented many times that the Mini's D-Terminal input kinda sucks

I'm using it from a XselectD4 (feed in 240p or 480p) and it looks like pretty well (?!!)
What makes you said that ? - maybe the little wavy noise ? I've got to switch to RGB in to see the difference...

[Fudoh]

There's massive difference in quality when processing 15khz signals (24op or 480i) on the one side and 31khz (480p) on the other hand. There's a problem with the horizontal input sampling when feeding 480p component sources. You get false contouring on vertical edges. The is visibly less pronounced when using RGBs instead. 240p and 480i is totally fine through component.

[fafangus]

There's a problem with the horizontal input sampling when feeding 480p component sources

Ah I know what you mean ^^
But for those I use the C2
Ok so I guess I'm connected the right way

[TheShadowRunner]

There's a problem with the horizontal input sampling when feeding 480p component sources. You get false contouring on vertical edges. The is visibly less pronounced when using RGBs instead.

Noted.

Ah I know what you mean ^^
But for those I use the C2 :mrgreen:

What's a "C2"?

[BuckoA51]

240p and 480i is totally fine through component.

I've not been keeping up clearly, weren't there colour problems with the component/D-terminal input. "Fiddly to get right" at best? Did they fix that then?

[12345]

It's just the preset which is not set correctly on D-terminal. You can get a very accurate picture by adjusting the "fiddly" values correctly. RGB-SCART isn't set perfectly either on default, admittedly better than D-terminal though.

You get false contouring on vertical edges. The is visibly less pronounced when using RGBs instead. 240p and 480i is totally fine through component.

Still looking forward to seeing this with my own eyes, so that I can judge (for myself) if it's worth it to switch the input or not.

[nissling]

What's a "C2"?

Crystalio II (aka. VPS-3100, 3300 or 3800).

[Fudoh]

Still looking forward to seeing this with my own eyes, so that I can judge (for myself) if it's worth it to switch the input or not.

Easiest test is with a DC, since it does output RGBHV and you just need a passive combined circuit to get it RGBs.

[TheShadowRunner]

What's a "C2"?

Crystalio II (aka. VPS-3100, 3300 or 3800).

Oh just 3000 ~ 5500 bucks, I see.

Joke aside, does a simple circuit exist to convert RGsB to RGBs?
I still would like to start off with a Sony AV multiout extender, maybe build the circuit in there, +5v is available within if needed..

[Fudoh]

CIIs are around $700-900 these days.

Joke aside, does a simple circuit exist to convert RGsB to RGBs?

not without a dedicated IC. And with simply RGB interfaces available at less than $20 I wouldn't exactly say that it's worth the effort.

[TheShadowRunner]

CIIs are around $700-900 these days.

Seems still waaay overkill ^^;

not without a dedicated IC.

If I understand correctly, to actually strip sync from G totally.. ok.

And with simply RGB interfaces available at less than $20 I wouldn't exactly say that it's worth the effort.

That Extron RGB 150xi hmm..

[fafangus]

I can judge (for myself) if it's worth it to switch the input or not.

I have to say it's better on "my setup" to run from dterminal with the xselect connected (in terms of equipments), also you could tune more finely the picture (I think and suppose... ), and have clearly no (less) artifacts (grain, noise...), but with a little trickery you also hook the xselect to the rgb input

I believed the mini's inputs were all the same in fact of quality of treatment (depending quality of the source)

For my part switching dterminal or rgb input, I have the same quality of picture (for 240p or 480i signals), just tune the brightness and gamma and others setting a little A/D...(but it could also came from your source, who's may differs from one to another)

CIIs are around $700-900 these days.

I agree, and it worth it, it's the day and night compare to the mini (for 480p and higher source)

CIIs are around $700-900 these days.

Seems still waaay overkill ^^;

Yes, at first you could think that, but if you in search for a high end solution to enhances - and get (probably) the best of your consoles, you should go further...
And there are not only Crystalios who provide great 480p upscaling - Optoma, or many Lumagen (at a really good price) could also do the job
For 240p Xrgb is the king, but for 480p it depends on what you want to reach...

[noonan2678]

I was going to list in the trading post, but will mention here also since it's relevant...

I have an Optoma HD3000 that I'd be willing to sell. It's basically brand new and CIB...perfect condition and very little use.
This is a great solution for PS2 @ 480p. Let me know if anyone is interested.

[FBX]

Small update in that I changed 'NESRGBOS' to a direct 4x-scale image so scanlines will appear uniform on it. This mode is only recommended for games like Legend of Zelda, where all 240 lines are used to display important graphics (i.e. symmetrical dungeon wall graphics).


Also I was getting annoyed by the Framemeister's seemingly random display order of all my profiles in the onscreen menu. So I set about trying to fix this, first by setting a staggered modification date, and then ultimately discovering that the order in which the profiles are placed on the microSD folder determines their viewing order. So what I did was manually move each profile from my computer and onto the microSD card in the appropriate order I wanted them to appear. That finally did the trick. Heads up for those wondering about this.

[amaradona]

Small update in that I changed 'NESRGBOS' to a direct 4x-scale image so scanlines will appear uniform on it. This mode is only recommended for games like Legend of Zelda, where all 240 lines are used to display important graphics (i.e. symmetrical dungeon wall graphics).


Also I was getting annoyed by the Framemeister's seemingly random display order of all my profiles in the onscreen menu. So I set about trying to fix this, first by setting a staggered modification date, and then ultimately discovering that the order in which the profiles are placed on the microSD folder determines their viewing order. So what I did was manually move each profile from my computer and onto the microSD card in the appropriate order I wanted them to appear. That finally did the trick. Heads up for those wondering about this.

All your profiles are shown in the xrgb's menu?
While I can save all of them in the sd card,only few of them are displayed when I choose load or load select in the mini.
I am using mac osx in case it would matter.