Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

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Durandal
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Durandal »

Despatche wrote:Durandal's writeup depends too much on two weak threads: that it's difficult to cater to people, and that such games are a dime a dozen. Neither of these are true at all. The problem with the first is that the people in this community worship "arcade standards" way too much and cannot even imagine something like "a game that doesn't have credits". Most basic thing in the world, would absolutely save this genre if it was researched. Suggest that and people flip the fuck out because they only want to see the completely wrong implications of it.

Credits outside of arcades, and the continue culture we have because of it, have done more harm to this genre than anything else in the world... yet the people who are supposed to care, you guys, seem to think that this is okay.

Just look at Durandal's suggestion buried in about the middle, it is flawless proof of exactly what I'm talking about. Too many people end up with that exact suggestion, even. It perpetuates the problem and insults everyone else who wants to play your game at the same time.
Doing away with creditfeeding is a catch-22, on one hand you have creditfeeders bitching the game is too short and too easy, on the other hand you will have people bitching the game is too cheap by forcing you to replay the whole thing over and over and that it is too hard with a poor difficulty curve, especially if there's no Practice Mode or Level Select feature. And then it'd be tough to assume everyone will use the practice mode, as that is usually where most people draw the line between games being work rather than fun. Normally the game should be enjoyable at a base level for people to consider seriously playing for ranks and score, at least that's what I heard for what people got into Assault Android Cactus. I don't know why there's such an insistence on allowing continues either, as I'd be completely fine without it.

You can always go for the go back to start option, but it will frustrate too many people if you don't define some kind of progress beyond score or skill gains, which is partially what allowed these roguelike games to thrive so much. Your run might suck, but you at least unlocked this item to be usable in future playthroughs. Alternatively, you can do with checkpoints and a high difficulty to pad the game length out with player deaths Cuphead-style, so even the common gamer has some goal to bruteforce his way towards.

I guess you can say who cares about casuals, but since we're talking about how high-production value arcade-style games are rather unviable in the current market and what prompted Housemarque to ditch it, ain't no shame to have a separate mode for people to whom the idea of restarting everything over is completely alien
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Special World
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Special World »

imo Mars Matrix and Ikaruga solved the creditfeeding problem years ago. I'm not sure why it's still an issue for developers.
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BurlyHeart
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by BurlyHeart »

In fairness they did make an attempt, with Veteran mode (equivalent to arcade I guess) having 10 continues max.... there is a trophy for this, as well as one for a 1cc on experienced (normal mode?). Though I do think they could 've done more.

Curious about the actual sales figures and what they consider a success. I'm still hopeful this is just a marketing ploy and they'll be back to the genre.

Some great replies in here and some not so great.Though that euro comment was just sad.
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Sumez
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

Yeah, people might not care too much about score nowadays (more precisely though, you can easily get people to care about score, but you need to get them into the game first), but for some reason people seem to care much more about the amusingly vastly more pointless achievement/trophy systems, which IMO solves the "1 credit" issue pretty well.
Though in-game recognition of one credit clears is obviously the best way to go if you want people to take the concept seriously. Maldita Castilla won't allow you to fight the final boss until you get there on 3 credits max, and makes sure you're aware of that - and once you do beat him it makes sure to point out that you didn't do it on one credit. It might not be "the arcade way", but it's completely valid and is super simple to do...
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Zaarock
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Zaarock »

Leviathan wrote:In fairness they did make an attempt, with Veteran mode (equivalent to arcade I guess) having 10 continues max.... there is a trophy for this, as well as one for a 1cc on experienced (normal mode?). Though I do think they could 've done more.
There's a true last boss (most elaborate boss in the game) and true ending if you 1cc the game on veteran, that's a lot of incentive. iirc they intended to have different credits music when you 1cc it as well.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Shepardus »

Leviathan wrote:Curious about the actual sales figures and what they consider a success.
SteamSpy estimates around 30k units sold on Steam (so not including PS4).
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qmish
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by qmish »

Sumez wrote:Yeah, people might not care too much about score nowadays
Why should they? I mean, not everybody cares about "leadership" "being first" "competition" etc.

:roll: time for a shitty joke that "shmups are for alphas" :oops: :mrgreen:
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

I'm the least competitive guy you could possibly find, and I still think scores are fun to play for.

PS: Yeah, I know you were being sarcastic :)
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by BurlyHeart »

Shepardus wrote:
Leviathan wrote:Curious about the actual sales figures and what they consider a success.
SteamSpy estimates around 30k units sold on Steam (so not including PS4).
30,000 or thereabouts. Is that bad? I don't really know, but doesn't sounds all that terrible.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by qmish »

They said sales are nearly same on both platforms.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/404540/d ... 1177054491

"under 100k copies in total" :roll:
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Sumez
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

Spent the last weekend at a private arcade where everyone were praising games like Defender and Robotron over and over. Most, if not all, of these people also play new games, too.

No one... no one had even heard of Nex Machina.

No wonder the game sold poorly. This should have been the game's primary audience.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by GSK »

qmish wrote:They said sales are nearly same on both platforms.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/404540/d ... 1177054491

"under 100k copies in total" :roll:
Nex Machina is a multi-platform game made by a relatively large team at a professional studio; it's entirely plausible that five-figure sales aren't cutting it and that their efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

You can scoff at those "low" figures for being much higher than those of the average Japanese or Japanese-style STG but all that does is highlight the complete lack of appetite for these games in general.
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Sumez
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

Well, following the upcoming weekend, they'll have 7500 additional sales no doubt. Nex Machina has had a slow start, but I think it will continue to get press for quite a while.
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CBM
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by CBM »

Sumez wrote:Well, following the upcoming weekend, they'll have 7500 additional sales no doubt.
Considering they are located in Helsinki (and the prices there) this will keep the lights on for about.. one week :wink:
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

How many people work there full time?
GSK
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by GSK »

Sumez wrote:How many people work there full time?
Over 50, I think, with around 30 on Nex Machina at its peak. They were working on another game called Matterfall at the same time and both the marketing and the release of both games overlapped quite a bit, which probably accounts for why neither one got a huge reaction.

I don't think any of their post-Resogun games have done nearly as well as Housemarque expected, but Nex Machina probably stings extra hard because they paid for this one themselves and because they went multi-platform thinking it'd help and it didn't, at least not initially.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

Holy crap. I can't even begin to imagine what all those people are kept busy with, 8 hours a day, for games with the scope of Nex Machina or Matterfall.
But I'm not gonna start trying to claim having that many people on board isn't justified, as I don't have any first hand experience with the business. I can, however, easily tell that Nex Machina needs to sell a lot to cover the expenses of so many people and an office space to house them.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by HydrogLox »

GSK wrote:both the marketing and the release of both games overlapped quite a bit
I can't be sure but I seem to recall coming across the suggestion that Matterfall was a Sony "backed" effort. So the "overlap" is between a Housemarque title and a Sony title.

Even with Resogun, Housemarque developed the concept and the PS4 version but the PS3 and Vita versions were done by Climax Studios - so Sony may have been in the driver's seat. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Sony published titles were "client projects" - so if there was a "marketing failure" for those titles, it could very well be Sony's. Nex Machina needed to be Housemarque through and through because they wanted to test the PC market again (Outland was their last attempt in 2014, porting the 2011 PSN/XBLA console version). Marketing not being their thing they may have hoped that mentioning "Eugene Jarvis" on social media often enough would create sufficient buzz.

But mainstream gamers probably aren't as aware of game developers and game designers. While lots of them may recognize "Super Stardust HD" and "Resogun" they wouldn't know anything about "Housemarque" or that the name "Eugene Jarvis" is associated with "Robotron: 2084". Keeping an eye on a developer or designer who created something in the past that you enjoyed doesn't seem to be a thing with the mainstream - they may just follow franchises.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by qmish »

HydrogLox wrote:
But mainstream gamers probably aren't as aware of game developers and game designers. While lots of them may recognize "Super Stardust HD" and "Resogun" they wouldn't know anything about "Housemarque" or that the name "Eugene Jarvis" is associated with "Robotron: 2084". Keeping an eye on a developer or designer who created something in the past that you enjoyed doesn't seem to be a thing with the mainstream - they may just follow franchises.
I always hated how people used to only know publishers and never cared for actual developers. Ignorance? :evil:
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by Sumez »

Mentioning Eugene Jarvis is a good way to get recognition, just like the absurdly good reviews the game has received is enough to get a lot of respect, and ensure sales with consumers who are already aware of the game. But it's not gonna spread the word.
Marketing a video game is tough, and when you have such a surprisingly large company to support (local triple-A developer Io Interactive was 200 people in 2014, before Square Enix dropped their support), you need one hell of a campaign, or at least something more accessible to the masses than Eugene Jarvis' name to get people's attention. Once again, Cuphead's gimmicky graphics is a good example. Hell, even Metal Slug would sell itself to most people using its graphics before they would go on to discover that the gameplay was also good.
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Re: Housemarque will no longer make arcade shooters

Post by DenT4F »

I'm a huge fan of their games but I think the big problem is that they focused too much on graphics, boosting the production costs. They would have sold just as well if they didn't care about making their games as flashy as possible. I could be wrong, just the way I see it.

I don't like how they make it seem like they're the only ones making arcade games but I think this was more of a tongue in cheek kind of thing. Everything they made reviewed very well but sales don't reflect them.. which led them thinking arcade games are dead. They know it ain't 100% true. Anyway, it's sad news but on the brighter side, they're still alive. I look forward their next game, it's a great team.
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