Strong aesthetic, weak gameplay

[Bananamatic]

he ignored my post so that means eschatos is objectively shit

[chempop]

Tatsujin-Ou

[Despatche]

Perhaps this is my fault for not titling the thread better and more carefully explaining my thoughts. "personal dislike" is exactly what I meant and what I was hoping for.

Basically, I just wanted to know if people had any examples of games that spoke to them on an aesthetic level but not on a gameplay level. Thought it would be interesting way of finding some not entirely well known sprite work or sfx or anything else like that, since the aesthetic would have to speak to them a lot in order to make them play it despite not enjoying the gameplay.

Objective worth, or even the reasons people subjectively like or dislike the gameplay is not what I'm looking for here.

Right, so this thread is the exact opposite of what it was stated to be, and is completely worthless due to being yet another round of wanking over sheer preference. Thanks!

The problem is that people do not know what simple preference and justified opinion are. When you make a thread like this, you get all these tired old memes like DFK laser wheels, or "you guys are crazy for dis/liking this game, but that's just my opinion :^) :^) :^)", or straight up lying about how a given game works. It's meaningless junk, it's amazingly dishonest as well as amazingly hostile, and it gets incredibly old hearing it year after year after year.

Just say "I don't like this game". You don't need to go on with those memes about Ikaruga being a "puzzle" game, or Garegga actually playing differently from its peers and working, or Touhou being filled with girl characters. Why is this so difficult? Why do people always need to make up or steal other totally-fabricated reasons as to why they like or dislike something? Just be honest with yourselves for a change.

I don't want people to personally like Ikaruga or Garegga or Touhou, and it's ridiculous that people always want it to come to that. All I want is that you guys be honest and respect Ikaruga, Garegga, and Touhou for being actually good games. I don't like Garegga, but I recognize that it's a great game with few peers.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm sorry, I made the thread while in a total rush to do school related stuff, I guess I just didn't put enough thought into the title or opening post :3

[Despatche]

That's great, but the endless confusion over sheer preference and informed opinion needs to stop either way. We still have this problem no matter what kind of pretense backs these threads.

[Bananamatic]

"good gameplay" is always subjective unless it's an ultra broken and awful game, especially in shmups that are almost never called "perfect"
unless you're as dense as an average harem anime protagonist you'd figure that one out from the thread subject and let people state their opinions without arguing with them or straight up starting a shitfight

tell me, does the ketsui empty lock improve the game by making the scoring system deeper and increasing the skill ceiling by a ton or is it just a "dumb glitch" that makes stuff way too complex and requires too much button pressing?

[Vludi]

When will we ever just delete the word "uninspired"? It means absolutely nothing.

Please familiarize yourself with Compile games, which are typically significantly less interesting than even little old Gekirindan, for multiple reasons.

It means something, I'll help you out
1. Characterized by a lack of excitement or liveliness; unexciting or uninteresting
2. Lacking or done without inspiration or enthusiasm

I think I've played a good amount of those, not even Compile games have a 1 minute transition in the first boss that you can't skip, basically Gekirindan has a ton of unnecessary waiting that just doesn't work on an arcade game, and the rest of the game wasn't that much fun to me either, it becomes pretty static really fast. Taito certainly has better games.

[Shepardus]

It bores me when people "appreciate" games as being "great" despite one's own personal dislikes. Everybody just says "this game's great but it's not for me" and envision this imaginary audience that may or may not even exist, which ends up being less insightful and just as subjective (just in different ways) than if they were to simply acknowledge their biases not as some fault clouding their better judgment, but as the only thing that ultimately matters.

tell me, does the ketsui empty lock improve the game by making the scoring system deeper and increasing the skill ceiling by a ton or is it just a "dumb glitch" that makes stuff way too complex and requires too much button pressing?

Start a poll for this plz

[trap15]

Tatsujin-Ou

Pretty much epitomizes the concept, really.

[Despatche]

Tatsujin Ou can be argued to have a decent pacing problem, but it's more than made up for by the hilarious amount of variety packed into the game.

"good gameplay" is always subjective unless it's an ultra broken and awful game, especially in shmups that are almost never called "perfect"
unless you're as dense as an average harem anime protagonist you'd figure that one out from the thread subject and let people state their opinions without arguing with them or straight up starting a shitfight

tell me, does the ketsui empty lock improve the game by making the scoring system deeper and increasing the skill ceiling by a ton or is it just a "dumb glitch" that makes stuff way too complex and requires too much button pressing?

No, we have some pretty reasonable guidelines for "good gameplay". People like to forget all about them, for some reason, even though shmups are a genre where these guidelines are incredibly important and pretty darned clear.

These aren't opinions. The shitfight is already here, with people slinging bullshit they don't understand about games they don't play. It has been for a long long time and it holds communities like this quite a ways back in simple discourse, let alone actually playing the damned games.

Please don't ignore what I'm trying to say and then use my posts as excuse of "shitstirring". The Ketsui empty lock is so far removed from this topic. Go back to your actual trolling, please.

It means something, I'll help you out
1. Characterized by a lack of excitement or liveliness; unexciting or uninteresting
2. Lacking or done without inspiration or enthusiasm

I think I've played a good amount of those, not even Compile games have a 1 minute transition in the first boss that you can't skip, basically Gekirindan has a ton of unnecessary waiting that just doesn't work on an arcade game, and the rest of the game wasn't that much fun to me either, it becomes pretty static really fast. Taito certainly has better games.

But, see, this effect is entirely different for different people, and has absolutely nothing to do with how the creator actually put the work together. The end result is a seemingly objective concept that is intensely subjective so as to be nothing more than an insult against the creator and every fan of that work. It's complete garbage, and doesn't really mean anything at all, no.

Yes, Gekirindan has a cinematic boss exit at the end of stage 1, which is a minor pacing problem. Gekirindan has actual problems, like the player 2 side and not having anything beyond its fairly simple five stages (just like Kyukyoku Tiger II), but you're just going to talk about irrelevant tripe like an animation.

Compile games don't need cinematic boss exits because entire stages are cinematic boss entrances.

[Vludi]

We are talking about video games here, thinking that everyone should value X game the same way and only consider the creator's view is ridiculous, besides if you think the developer's view was so brilliant at least give me some proof.
Pacing and difficulty curve aren't trivial elements for a game at all, cool cherrypick of only one of my points there.

And about Compile games, I think I'll just leave it there before the MUSHA rant

[PowerofElsydeon]

Hey don't just trash Compile
I ve had a change of heart and I agree that Musha is shity game with briliant aestettics
But Zanac is nothing like that
I know it doesn't have a worthy scoring system but besides that
It has to be the best NES shooter
If you didn't play Zanac;the harder modes of Super Aleste or maybe Robo Aleste don't just trash Compile like they're Games are just MUSHA like trash

[PuToTyra]

I play games such as touhou pc-98 to death, while completely avoiding touhou games from th12 onward-even tho their gameplay is more polished, they don't have have the charm of the previous titles and don't even feel like touhou anymore!

Why in God's name do we have this fake nostalgia for the "aesthetic" of the tEoSD trilogy above anything later? We're not even talking gameplay, because the tEoSD trilogy gameplay is exceptional stuff that the later games don't quite match. No, we're talking about aeshetic and about characters.

It's like the Pokemon genwunners, except even worse, because the absolute majority of the Touhou fans behind this didn't play tEoSD as a ten year old back in 2002.

You guys have to understand that you can have all the opinion in the world, but when it's supported by verifiable bullshit, the opinion in question becomes incredibly shady.

It's not fake nostalgia. True, I played Eosd for the first time in 2010, not in 2002, but it was my first touhou and danmaku game ever. It has a special place in my heart. And I didn't even play pc-98 games until 2012 or 2013, but I still like them more then newest ones(especially touhou3).

I genuinely think that Zun's artstyle got really horrible after touhou9, and lost much of what made it unique. The new characters introduced from touhou12 onward aren't as well designed or memorable as the older ones, either. They no longer look like Victorian dolls-what made me like them so much in the first place!-now they often wear miniskirts, sandals and walk with most of their skin exposed. The frilly hats disappeared, as well.

The magical charm of the franchise and the witty, unique dialogs are gone. The ambiguous, artsy backgrounds are gone, as well. Now everything is exactly, literally how it looks. The dialogs are all about memes and pandering fanbase. The music too, seemed to have gotten worse-I can't even recall any memorable track from last 3 official games, but perhaps that's because I simply don't play them. At all.

[Sumez]

R-Type III
The Games Paradise
Layer Section
...

Guwange :3




Parodius series is pretty good gameplay wise (maybe even better than Gradius) but I gotta admit I always play them mostly for the A E S T H E T I C's

All of these choices are stellar games for their actual gameplay, except maybe R-Type III due to some specific balance issues.

Again, we really need to keep small balance issues out of a thread like this. "Weak gameplay" does not mean a few specific memes or dislike, personal or otherwise; tt means the game doesn't work well on a fundamental level.

Does it really? As I already stated, that's not how i understand the OP.

For example, the obvious reference point that comes to me is Musha. Typically furious and flashy 16-bit Compile weaponry, designs, presentation, and audio. Not that much actually going on as a shooter though.

I agree that Musha's legacy owes a lot to its visuals, but it's a perfectly solid shooter either way, even if nothing particularly stand-out, and I'm pretty sure Squire doesn't think Musha "doesn't work well on a fundemental level".

While I'll gladly admit my post was pushing it, partly trolling, I do think that all the games I mentioned primarily stand out to me, due to their amazing aesthetics, and I likely wouldn't have spent as much time with them without that aspect. I do love all of them, and none of them are bad games at all.

[Shepardus]

I play games such as touhou pc-98 to death, while completely avoiding touhou games from th12 onward-even tho their gameplay is more polished, they don't have have the charm of the previous titles and don't even feel like touhou anymore!

Why in God's name do we have this fake nostalgia for the "aesthetic" of the tEoSD trilogy above anything later? We're not even talking gameplay, because the tEoSD trilogy gameplay is exceptional stuff that the later games don't quite match. No, we're talking about aeshetic and about characters.

It's like the Pokemon genwunners, except even worse, because the absolute majority of the Touhou fans behind this didn't play tEoSD as a ten year old back in 2002.

You guys have to understand that you can have all the opinion in the world, but when it's supported by verifiable bullshit, the opinion in question becomes incredibly shady.

It's not fake nostalgia. True, I played Eosd for the first time in 2010, not in 2002, but it was my first touhou and danmaku game ever. It has a special place in my heart. And I didn't even play pc-98 games until 2012 or 2013, but I still like them more then newest ones(especially touhou3).

I genuinely think that Zun's artstyle got really horrible after touhou9, and lost much of what made it unique. The new characters introduced from touhou12 onward aren't as well designed or memorable as the older ones, either. They no longer look like Victorian dolls-what made me like them so much in the first place!-now they often wear miniskirts, sandals and walk with most of their skin exposed. The frilly hats disappeared, as well.

The magical charm of the franchise and the witty, unique dialogs are gone. The ambiguous, artsy backgrounds are gone, as well. Now everything is exactly, literally how it looks. The dialogs are all about memes and pandering fanbase. The music too, seemed to have gotten worse-I can't even recall any memorable track from last 3 official games, but perhaps that's because I simply don't play them. At all.

IMO ZUN's art style peaked in Imperishable Night, but I have no idea what you mean by "walk with most of their skin exposed" - ZUN has been as reluctant to sexualize his characters in his games as always. Most characters still wear hats or some sort of headgear. "Memes" and "pandering [to the] fanbase"? Are you sure you're playing the official games and not some fangame? ZUN has never really inserted memes into his dialogue, it's the fanbase that generates memes out of the dialogue, and if anything that's way more common in the earlier Windows games. The stage backgrounds were never very "ambiguous" to begin with, except for IN stage 3 - it's only that way during spell cards, and that hasn't changed in later games. I agree, though, that the music hasn't been as memorable in the most recent couple games, with one or two exceptions (Sukuna's theme in DDC is really good).

[PuToTyra]

IMO ZUN's art style peaked in Imperishable Night, but I have no idea what you mean by "walk with most of their skin exposed" - ZUN has been as reluctant to sexualize his characters in his games as always. Most characters still wear hats or some sort of headgear. "Memes" and "pandering [to the] fanbase"? Are you sure you're playing the official games and not some fangame? ZUN has never really inserted memes into his dialogue, it's the fanbase that generates memes out of the dialogue, and if anything that's way more common in the earlier Windows games. The stage backgrounds were never very "ambiguous" to begin with, except for IN stage 3 - it's only that way during spell cards, and that hasn't changed in later games. I agree, though, that the music hasn't been as memorable in the most recent couple games, with one or two exceptions (Sukuna's theme in DDC is really good).

Cirno being baka, Meiling sleeping on duty? Sanae turned full airhead and one step away from the "slut" personality? And if you don't think that character's are getting more and more sexualized, you must be delusional! Even the old ones are getting changes to their design-notably Reimu, Youmu and Reisen getting shorter skirts etc, Hecatia who looks like hardcore bimbo, Sukuna whom I have defeated only out of spite for her disgusting character design(and never played DDC again after that)....

[LordHypnos]

... Omega Fighter which looks horribly boring but plays like an absolute dream.

In some ways, Omega Fighter could actually be classified as a game with a strong aesthetic and weak gameplay. The music is really good, and the whole thing where all of the stages take place in different parts of the ship is a really cool idea, while the power-up dodging that is a fundamental part of gameplay is incredibly frustrating. On the other hand though, if the powerups worked differently you'd have a really cool weapon system and really good stage design, and the pixel art sucks, so I can definitely see where you're coming from.

[ED-057]

troll answer: everything from Cave

real answer: Terra Cresta 3D and the Macross Saturn shmup

[PowerofElsydeon]

Divine Sealing

[Perikles]

Forgot to mention Psychic Storm the other day. It's definitely a solid game, but it's unfortunately extremely easy (you can transform your ship into a huge creature thrice per stage which grants invincibility for a prolonged time, there's a bomb meter that refills itself over time, you have a generous energy bar, game's not terribly difficult anyway) and without any higher difficulty setting or even a score. In other words: chances are you're going to clear the game on your first credit with no reason to revisit it again despite the sound craftmanship. The visuals, however, are great, both from a technical perspective and as far as the style is concerned, several bosses look like bio-monsters straight out of X-Multiply or another Irem game.

[Dinjoralo]

I'm gonna add Super Galaxy Squadron to this list. You've got really nice music and flashy pixel art, all wrapping up a shmup that is so freaking boring. There's a fire button you never have to stop holding down, two series' of linear power ups that are just for that one shot, and some kind of bullet blocker/screen clearer you fill up a meter for. That's it. You have fourteen ships, and they all play the same, with the only differences being what screen-filling spew of bullets they fire, their screen clearer/bullet blocker, and their speed. Combined with a extremely basic scoring system of "kill things fast for a multiplier" and very uninspired levels and enemies, and you have a thoroughly boring shmup.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

... Omega Fighter which looks horribly boring but plays like an absolute dream.

In some ways, Omega Fighter could actually be classified as a game with a strong aesthetic and weak gameplay.

It really was an interesting game thanks to its scoring system and slowdown abilities, as well as the setting (the entire game is vs a giant battleship). But yes, the powerup system does seem pretty poorly thought out - you have to dodge the max powerups (as your weapon is way too ineffective at max power), and the usual weapon to use is the straight shot... I think it's still a pretty good game but the weapon system could have done with some polish.

I'm honestly not crazy about the bomb systems in Garegga, Batrider, Ibara, etc. - you have to bomb strategically to score but effective scoring means often not having bombs to use for survival, so you often have to do one or the other. I much prefer games where there are other scoring mechanics in place that allow you to retain your emergency countermeasures for when you actually need them (Dodonpachi chaining, special abilities like Giga Wing, etc).

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm honestly not crazy about the bomb systems in Garegga, Batrider, Ibara, etc. - you have to bomb strategically to score but effective scoring means often not having bombs to use for survival, so you often have to do one or the other. I much prefer games where there are other scoring mechanics in place that allow you to retain your emergency countermeasures for when you actually need them (Dodonpachi chaining, special abilities like Giga Wing, etc).

Heheheh, off topic but that's actually my favorite type of offense/defensive balancing act for bombs.

Offense = use it asap everytime it recharges to end fights faster at the cost of your safety net.

Defense = Hold on to it for an emergency, at the cost of prolonging fights.

For me the pinnacle of this philosophy is eXceed 2nd. Not only because it pulls off the above well, but multilayers it with bomb recharging based off of Ikaruga's bullet absorbtion. That extra dimension adds a lovely risk/reward element to getting your bomb back faster, for offensive or defensive purposes. Dare you point blank enemies to double damage and rapidly absorb same-colored bullets for a bomb recharge at the risk of getting smacked in the face??

When still learning to 1cc, weighting the options mid fight of whether to preemptively bomb and end things faster vs hold on in case of danger is really fun. When you've mastered an started playing for score, going for non stop psyvariar style i-frame bullet surfing laser chains for massive time bonuses is one of the most satisfying feats of aggression I've seen in a shmup outside of Biometal.

[ratikal]

Metal Black is THE A E S T H E T I C stg. The gameplay is not amazing and very simple, but that doesn't stop it from being amazing from the music and presentation.

[copy-paster]

Pink Sweets.

Perhaps the most beautiful, fun, and heart-warming aesthetic Cave game ever made, the gameplay though is not that bad, but the rank system is sucks.

[Eaglet]

Metal Black is THE A E S T H E T I C stg. The gameplay is not amazing and very simple, but that doesn't stop it from being amazing from the music and presentation.

+10^6

I think the gameplay and stage design is quite fun as well. Can get really hectic in its places.

I'm honestly not crazy about the bomb systems in Garegga, Batrider, Ibara, etc. - you have to bomb strategically to score but effective scoring means often not having bombs to use for survival, so you often have to do one or the other. I much prefer games where there are other scoring mechanics in place that allow you to retain your emergency countermeasures for when you actually need them (Dodonpachi chaining, special abilities like Giga Wing, etc).

tbh the games play the same when it comes to survival. Bomb if you're in need.
For score play both games punish you for it though, with one (DDP-style) destroying your score.

[Squire Grooktook]

Metal Black is THE A E S T H E T I C stg. The gameplay is not amazing and very simple, but that doesn't stop it from being amazing from the music and presentation.

+10^6

I think the gameplay and stage design is quite fun as well. Can get really hectic in its places.

Agreed. I think it takes a while to click with people for various reasons, but as far as oldschool horizontals go it's actually quite nice and characterful if not among-st the best. I think its gameplay would be better appreciated if more people spent an honest amount of time with it. It's really quite good.

[Sakurei]

IMO ZUN's art style peaked in Imperishable Night, but I have no idea what you mean by "walk with most of their skin exposed" - ZUN has been as reluctant to sexualize his characters in his games as always. Most characters still wear hats or some sort of headgear. "Memes" and "pandering [to the] fanbase"? Are you sure you're playing the official games and not some fangame? ZUN has never really inserted memes into his dialogue, it's the fanbase that generates memes out of the dialogue, and if anything that's way more common in the earlier Windows games. The stage backgrounds were never very "ambiguous" to begin with, except for IN stage 3 - it's only that way during spell cards, and that hasn't changed in later games. I agree, though, that the music hasn't been as memorable in the most recent couple games, with one or two exceptions (Sukuna's theme in DDC is really good).

Cirno being baka, Meiling sleeping on duty? Sanae turned full airhead and one step away from the "slut" personality? And if you don't think that character's are getting more and more sexualized, you must be delusional! Even the old ones are getting changes to their design-notably Reimu, Youmu and Reisen getting shorter skirts etc, Hecatia who looks like hardcore bimbo, Sukuna whom I have defeated only out of spite for her disgusting character design(and never played DDC again after that)....

I can't remember the last time I saw someone who says they play Touhou but understand it so little. Reisen and Sakuya wear miniskirts and they were introduced early in the series. Similarly there are characters later in the series who show very little to no skin like Kagerou or Sukuna (whose only skin showing are her ankles and feet). ZUN has never and still does not sexualize his characters. Your failure to understand Touhou as a whole coupled with your idiotic views that aesthetics > gameplay just make you look like a moron tbh. I bet you don't even score.

[KAI]

I bet you don't even score.

[Giest118]

Ikaruga is an unplayable mess that has some graphics I guess.