DoDonPachi Resurrection - Steam Edition

[Xyga]

Live how this thread has slipped on a banana peel from the start.
...
whens sdoj

More seriously it's nice for people who haven't played every damn mode and remake of DFK, but personally I don't care much as my full 'set' is taking the dust on my 360.
[that was my most useful post of the day]

[Kaiser]

There is a symbiotic relationship between developers and the communities that play their games, and sites like this are supposed to mediate that relationship.

Degica have been keeping up their side of the bargain on this forum.

The problem round here is that there is a total lack of editorial control when it comes to keeping up our side of the bargain. When someone starts a thread like this which is supposed to be for people who enjoy the game, there should be a clear, enforced rule that if you haven't got anything constructive to add then you go elsewhere.

I'll be blunt. As a shmup developer who's selling 2 shmups on Steam already (Zenohell and Zenodyne R), I can tell you that your idea of turning this amazing forum into a DEVELOPER HUGBOX is BULLSHIT.

Why is it bullshit you ask? Well, i'll give you a good history lesson.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/402030/
^ This, is Zenohell, my first shmup people on steam, as every developer, I thought it was fine but people on shmups forums rightfully proved me wrong and here's how:

- They called me out on lack of level design
- They called me out on dragging-on gameplay
- They called me out on general lazyness of the gameplay
- They called me out on lack of content
- They called me out on lazy inconsistent visuals

Was I slightly pissy at first? Yep. Eventually I stopped defending my design choices and admitted the defeat. Was all the feedback constructive? No! But every piece of feedback is great no matter how bad it is because you will find that they are expressing their point, just not in the best way possible, having yes-men up your ass will destroy you and your games, so put those yes-men away and man up!

So what did I do? I simply had to make a better game to NOT get rid of the negative comments but rather, minimize the amount of them by trying to address all the issues step by step. And that's how Zenodyne R came to be.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/466820/
And here is Zenodyne R, my latest shmup release, is it perfect? No. Does it try to minimize the flaws Zenohell had? Yep! Does it have flaws of it's own? Yep it does and I've taken notes for my next shmup to try to avoid those flaws.

So the point is, a HUGBOX benefits no one, not the players and not the developers, because the forums are awesome as they are, I was able to see my own mistakes with Zenohell and try to avoid them in Zenodyne R.

Respect your own audience
---

EXTRA NOTE TIME:

Back in 2010 I think? There was a guy from the sine mora team called Reiker who was gathering feedback for the devs, but he dissapeared the day the game was released and NONE of the feedback was implemented, yeah this is not how you handle feedback, at all.

---

MODS: I suggest splitting this hugbox discussion into it's own topic.

[Van_Artic]

words

i feel you're being a lil delusional imo

wether we're happy or not with this port, its not gonna push cave into making something that is ACTUALLY NEW, we're gonna get yet another badly made port of a port that half of the forum already played on 360, it's not gonna sell that much anyways even if we get positive about it

we are a niche and we'll stay a niche no matter what

Spoiler

also we already have a DFK thread http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34936

[Bananamatic]

tbh I'm hype for dfk just to see what they'll fuck up this time

[Elixir]

STG4WD how about you stop trying to police peoples opinions and let free conversation take its course? we owe nothing to degica or cave and should be free to express both positive and negative opinions on the games.

See this is where I disagree.

If you look at more successful game genres, the blogs attached to them realise that they have a stake in the success of the games.

There is a symbiotic relationship between developers and the communities that play their games, and sites like this are supposed to mediate that relationship.

Degica have been keeping up their side of the bargain on this forum.

The problem round here is that there is a total lack of editorial control when it comes to keeping up our side of the bargain. When someone starts a thread like this which is supposed to be for people who enjoy the game, there should be a clear, enforced rule that if you haven't got anything constructive to add then you go elsewhere.

It really comes back to my question of 'what is this forum for'? I think it would benefit the community if there was a blog attached to the forum*, where comments below the line have less impact on the overall editorial tone of the site. Because if this place is as good as it gets for the English-speaking shmup community, then the genre won't be going anywhere any time soon.



*And a dedicated URL. The fact that this place is a sub-domain of another site is pretty lame.

You're trying to echo this nonsense again: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p1176162

Just hopping back in here to add my 2p worth to this thread. I’m doing this because

- I like the genre
- I like the fact there is an English language resource for it like this
- I think System11 has done a stand-up job taking things to their current position.

So here goes…

Like several others around here that I know of, I’m a recent arrival to the shmups genre, coming from a background in the FGC. My time in the FGC means I have a decent arcade stick and I like games with high intensity and technical challenge.

I am used to digesting info from the web in the form of blogs like Event Hubs and Shoryuken, which have grown from humble beginnings and made a big contribution to the growth in popularity of fighting games over the last 10 years.

Coming to the shmups forum, I have been constantly disappointed by the contrast vs FGC sites. The ‘forum’ format (as opposed to a blog) does not lend itself so well to tracking news and highlighting new releases, or to showcasing performances by good players. These things happen, but they happen way better with a blog.

It wouldn’t be so bad, but then there’s the shocking air of snobbery and elitism from some long standing members here. This manifests itself in various forms, such as negativity towards new developers, and hostility to any ideas aimed at trying to make the genre more popular like the FGC. There’s also too much chat about crusty old games (which I’m sure are great) at the expense of real promo for great new games, of which there are a few e.g. the Cave Steam releases which have had a fairly limp reception.

Quite honestly, I wouldn’t pay a penny for use of this forum in its current state. If I’m going to hand over cash, I would want it to be for a blog that is specifically aimed at improving the (woeful) fortunes of the genre, and welcoming new players. Fair enough if the forum is attached to the blog so that all the market place, technical info, strategy guides etc. are retained, but the front end should be an edited blog with pics and videos in each post, where everyone can have their little say in the comments.

I’m not interested in paying to fund some sort of retirement home for grumpy old gamers.

Give us real hype/hope, or get the cash elsewhere. NB the FGC blogs don't need to charge, because they are actually popular...

That’s my 2p worth.

Inb4 the WR1LCnolifebars fanboy rrrage erupts.

#kappa.

This isn't the FGC. Babby isn't going to have things run his way so feel free to leave if you don't like it.

[NickPalmerDegica]

anyone else feeling the dfk meh?

anyone else feeling the Bananamatic meh?



On a serious note: Discuss the game how you want. I'd much prefer people just talk about their honest opinions than feel like they owe us anything more than just the general respect you offer to anyone else.

Plus, any issues are things I can pass along to CAVE.

As for beta testing: I think that that is coming up soon, I don't have the exact date, but most of the International beta testing will be last pass stuff. We've been doing a TON of playtesting with JP high-level players, due to not having to translate their bug reports for CAVE. So our international beta testing will be a pretty short phase. We won't stop listening though once it is released. If anyone spots issues, please do bring them up.

Also: We have a new Shmup outreach guy that is going to be showing up soon! I'll still be around, but this guy is someone who knows the scene and knows the games in a way I just don't. In fact, you guys may even already know him. But I'll let him make the announcement when we get him set up.

[Eaglet]

Who could it ever be?

[STG4WD]

I've read all of the above, and I'm still not backing down (or leaving).

I guess Degica as a publisher and not a developer doesn't need there to be new games and a wider audience in order to hit their numbers.

However, for anyone who actually knows what a thriving genre scene looks like (hint: check the FGC) they know this isn't one. In order for it to be one, it needs better resources than this forum and its moronic inhabitants.

Spoiler

SHMUPS FORUM = MEH

[Squire Grooktook]

I think part of the problem is that you really don't know much about this forum.

There's a lot of positivity here and a lot of games and new releases have been celebrated. But you don't seem to post or read much (even when you're here) so you don't seem to be aware of it.

Also I was playing fighting games religiously before coming here, and a fighting game forum is still my second most active forum, and I don't recall "nobody is allowed to say anything bad about a new game" to be any kind of rule on any respectable fighter forum.

[STG4WD]

I don't recall "nobody is allowed to say anything bad about a new game" to be any kind of rule on any respectable fighter forum.

Any opinions are fine as long as they are constructive (unlike the second post in this thread).

Please point out where I have said otherwise?

[dunpeal2064]

Funny, BNM actually helped me a shit ton when I was working on DFK. If you actually get into discussing these games with any sort of depth, most folks here are more than helpful. I would agree that this is the best forum I have seen.

[Squire Grooktook]

Seems like you're implying that anything negative = not constructive.

Comes out pretty strong here imo.

STG4WD how about you stop trying to police peoples opinions and let free conversation take its course? we owe nothing to degica or cave and should be free to express both positive and negative opinions on the games.

See this is where I disagree.

If you look at more successful game genres, the blogs attached to them realise that they have a stake in the success of the games.

There is a symbiotic relationship between developers and the communities that play their games, and sites like this are supposed to mediate that relationship.

Degica have been keeping up their side of the bargain on this forum.

The problem round here is that there is a total lack of editorial control when it comes to keeping up our side of the bargain [Grooktooks note: we never had a bargain]. When someone starts a thread like this which is supposed to be for people who enjoy the game, there should be a clear, enforced rule that if you haven't got anything constructive [Grooktooks note: what is not constructive? Saying you don't enjoy a game or think its unbalanced?] to add then you go elsewhere.

It really comes back to my question of 'what is this forum for'? [Grooktooks note: same as any forum. Exchange of ideas.] I think it would benefit the community if there was a blog attached to the forum*, where comments below the line have less impact on the overall editorial tone of the site [Grooktooks note: you keep using the word "editorial" I don't think it means what you think it means, and I don't think that a forum is for what you think it's for.]. Because if this place is as good as it gets for the English-speaking shmup community, then the genre won't be going anywhere any time soon [Grooktooks note: You have no idea how helpful and friendly this site has been. Lurk more newbie.].



*And a dedicated URL. The fact that this place is a sub-domain of another site is pretty lame.

[Bananamatic]

Funny, BNM actually helped me a shit ton when I was working on DFK. If you actually get into discussing these games with any sort of depth, most folks here are more than helpful. I would agree that this is the best forum I have seen.

that's because people never ask for advice, they complain about laser wheels but never actually ask for advice on how to beat them

with the game already being out for 5 years on 360 and no gameplay discussion there is nothing to talk about besides port quality and shitposting, both of which lead to inevitable butthurt

[hail good sir]

Probably one of the only ones but I'm looking forward to having access to arrange A again since I sold all my 360 stuff, just hoping it doesn't get ignored with any testing that needs to be done.

[Obscura]

The reason there's not going to be much hype-talk about DFK is that there's not much to say about it (well, other than the stage 1 Ura requirements, which still haven't been fully hashed out as near as I can tell).

It's a fun fast/easy 1ALL, which everyone here probably did years ago. Playing it more seriously than that isn't worth your time, and everyone here probably realized that years ago. Some surprisingly good stage and pattern design (arguably the best of modern Cave), but with mechanics that stupid, it's hard to care.

[Bananamatic]

which are the stupid mechanics anyways

I can only think of the super weak bosses (in terms of patterns/difficulty, not the fact they are anime girls) and boss milking

[Obscura]

Autobomb that can't be turned off, hypermode bullet melting for looooong periods of time, Ura route. Laser cancelling doesn't add a lot to the game either, but it doesn't really detract anything.

[Bananamatic]

but if you're playing seriously then autobomb doesn't matter with a restart button, hyper cancelling makes you lose score and ura is no big deal once you learn how to play the game

and if ura requirements are still too much for you, then omote 2-all with the autobomb should be a decent challenge
i'd say omote 2-all with strong type should be somewhere below futari god clear difficulty

[Lyv]

Is Black Label somewhat fun to play for survival ?
Trying to find a reason to buy it...

[cave hermit]

Well I mean, the Black Label soundtrack is the hypest shit, and the manually adjustable rank is really cool.

Also it was done by Yagawa, so you must buy it or face the penalty of gratuitous bum-fuckery.

From what little I played of it in MAME, I felt like it addressed a lot of issues I had with 1.5, but I haven't played it enough to give a meaningful opinion on it in any case.

[Van_Artic]

and if ura requirements are still too much for you, then omote 2-all with the autobomb should be a decent challenge
i'd say omote 2-all with strong type should be somewhere below futari god clear difficulty

the very first credit i ever played in dfk got me to 2-5 omote

Is Black Label somewhat fun to play for survival ?
Trying to find a reason to buy it...

black label played for survival is the most boring thing ever
ironically it can kinda get boring when played for score too, cause its easy
never use red shot, turn autobomb on and you'll have little problems clearing it

[CloudyMusic]

the very first credit i ever played in dfk got me to 2-5 omote

You knew all the bee locations beforehand?

[Van_Artic]

You knew all the bee locations beforehand?

i had the superplay DVD before getting the port
even then when you align vertically to a bee that the laser didnt reveal yet, theres a visual cue i think

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

Feeling the DFK-meh as well. Heaps of bullet-cancelling, the loli bullshit and the laser wheels annoy me to no end. Feels quite bland in terms of presentation and theme as well, especially if you compare it to the other Cave games. Fuck that nonsense, there's tons of better, more interesting things to play, such as SDOJ.

Would probably have enjoyed Ketsuipachi if it had just put the Ketsui ships and mechanics into DFK without those fucking bullet cancelling hypers. As it is, it's pretty much an unplayable mess.

And why that nagging youth keeps trying to tell us what kind of attitude we should display on our own goddamned forum is completely beyond me... I imagine him being constantly annoyed in real life since nobody behaves the way he would like them to.

[Blinge]

Also it was done by Yagawa, so you must buy it or face the penalty of gratuitous bum-fuckery.

Hang on, I thought that's how he rewards his faithful?

[Bananamatic]

manually adjustable rank

you're really just meant to max it out and cancel everything, not "adjust" it, it doesn't punish you in any way
there isn't a whole lot of dodging going on in BL

[Lyv]

black label played for survival is the most boring thing ever

Also it was done by Yagawa

Damn, that's two major problems with this mode then.

I'll have a look at the arrange modes just in case ; thanks.

[CStarFlare]

the very first credit i ever played in dfk got me to 2-5 omote

I did the same, but 2-5 is where you resources run dry extremely fast. Not to overstate Strong style, but making it to 2-5 really felt like arriving at the foot of the mountain. Even if you're able to not totally piss away your lives and bombs 2-5 will drain them pretty quick.

I preferred Power Style generally - felt more like a real game, and didn't allow you to just fuck about for forty minutes before deciding you should fuck off. I just can't imagine how it feels to tackle the second loop with Power, and didn't care for scoring enough to try polish my first loop.

[Van_Artic]

Feeling the DFK-meh as well. Heaps of bullet-cancelling, the loli bullshit and the laser wheels annoy me to no end. Feels quite bland in terms of presentation and theme as well, especially if you compare it to the other Cave games. Fuck that nonsense, there's tons of better, more interesting things to play, such as SDOJ.

there's actually more underage girls in SDOJ than in DFK
and the ones in DFK dont really look like lolis anyways

just saying!

[Shepardus]

In SDOJ they're only really featured between stages and at ship selection, and the small operator portrait in the corner.