You really need to play Battle Garegga

[Shepardus]

Even if Garegga was an accident, Yagawa went on to create several other great games which show that he at least took the lessons he needed from Garegga.

[Squire Grooktook]

So do hundreds or thousands of others too. Recca is a nice game, but really it's nothing out of ordinary.

We'll have to disagree there.

For it's time, Recca was pretty innovative and out of the ordinary. It was practically bullet hell on the nes. Back when developers had barely even begun to conceive the idea in arcades,

Today? I still think it's 100% unique. The charge/bomb mechanic and options make it play like a sword and shield "paladin shmup" where lowering and raising your titanic guard tactically while modulating your main vs option shot rate is the key to success (and rewarded spectacularly with one of the flashiest weapons in the genre). And the games zakos and hazards have a manic "sanic speed" feel to them that very few games today try to approach.

It may not be perfect, but I think it's great, and I can't think of any other shmup that has the same playstyle or inimitable feel (I hear Pink Sweets tries to emulate it, but that games is, uhhh...). And playing it alongside its nes contemporaries, at any rate, feels like night and day.

[TransatlanticFoe]

The fandom is the worst thing about Garegga.

It's only high level scoring that needs the extensive guides - as explained previously, hidden rank is little different to other games of the time so it's still a fun and managable survival game. The pseudo-intellectual fan wanking over the rank design as though it's a higher plane of genius is what's insufferably tedious.

[Squire Grooktook]

>fandom
>shmup

pick one

jokes aside, most of it is just memes and in-jokes tbh. Most of the honest opinions expressed in threads like these are comparatively reasonable.

[phase3]

The fandom is the worst thing about Garegga.

It's only high level scoring that needs the extensive guides - as explained previously, hidden rank is little different to other games of the time so it's still a fun and managable survival game. The pseudo-intellectual fan wanking over the rank design as though it's a higher plane of genius is what's insufferably tedious.

Yeah, how dare some people converse enthusiastically about a shared love on one of the only forums on the Internet that warrants it. I don't mean to sound out of order, but I feel pretty sorry for you if you're so shallow and misanthropic that the way people enjoy something affects the way you enjoy it yourself.
Some people end up missing out on fun and cool things because they are so involved with such peripheral and innocuous things as "fan wankery."

[Xyga]

ha ha. Garegga. you don't have to understand everything about it - the genius and the bullshit - to acknowledge its awesomeness.

[Despatche]

So do hundreds or thousands of others too.

Horribly incorrect, especially shown in recent years. Individuals who are able to make cool games are prized commodities. Never mind that the vast majority of games are team efforts, though in the case of a game like Garegga, the programmer (not just the programming) is a very large part of it.

Recca is a nice game, but really it's nothing out of ordinary.

God, this sounds familiar. Shouldn't you be hating on this genre as an incestuous circlejerk of fake difficulty-laden trash?

It's also simply wrong. Even after you scrub out all the weird "holy grail" emulator-only fanboys (i.e. people who don't actually care about shmups), Recca is significantly different from all of its peers. It takes the basic formula of a Compile/Soldier game and thoroughly twists it on the same level that Sonic did to Mario.

Even if Garegga was an accident, Yagawa went on to create several other great games which show that he at least took the lessons he needed from Garegga.

This is another thing Cagar doesn't seem to get. The entire fighting game genre was a gigantic happy accident; noone really seems to mind, and the horribly busted The World Warrior is still seen as a brilliant work of art.

The fandom is the worst thing about Garegga.

It's only high level scoring that needs the extensive guides - as explained previously, hidden rank is little different to other games of the time so it's still a fun and managable survival game. The pseudo-intellectual fan wanking over the rank design as though it's a higher plane of genius is what's insufferably tedious.

To elaborate on what rentalcar said, let me tell you about a little thing called the "anti-fandom" and their "anti-fanboys". They have the same kind of feeling fanboys do, except they mindlessly attempt to deride and take away instead of praise and press. Other side of the coin.

When you try to call out the game's honest to goodness fanbase for actually caring about something, then proceed to go into an actual pseudo-intellectual rant about how terrible caring about anything is, you're being an anti-fanboy.

The best part is that I actually dislike Garegga. Actual honest to goodness preference. No weird justifications that just end up horribly wrong under scrutiny, no attempt to call the game out for a problem it doesn't actually have. I dislike playing the game. I am not a "fan".

[TransatlanticFoe]

The fandom is the worst thing about Garegga.

It's only high level scoring that needs the extensive guides - as explained previously, hidden rank is little different to other games of the time so it's still a fun and managable survival game. The pseudo-intellectual fan wanking over the rank design as though it's a higher plane of genius is what's insufferably tedious.

Yeah, how dare some people converse enthusiastically about a shared love on one of the only forums on the Internet that warrants it. I don't mean to sound out of order, but I feel pretty sorry for you if you're so shallow and misanthropic that the way people enjoy something affects the way you enjoy it yourself.
Some people end up missing out on fun and cool things because they are so involved with such peripheral and innocuous things as "fan wankery."

It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game. It's never enthusiastic converse, it's "this is the best thing ever and it's so deep, if you don't get it you're thick". Followed by "rank is stupid, you're all stupid".

[Jeneki]

This reminds me of several years ago, when I told a local buddy, "Garegga rank is a lie, it doesn't exist, it was made up by elitists to confuse newbies", and then showed him how to double-tap the fire button to max out the shot speed right away. After a few plays he figured it out.

[Cagar]

-

[phase3]

EDIT: And I'm literally judging Yagawa's design skills and creativity based on Battle garegga alone, not his other (or future) games. I'm not even sure what he he has done after that, and I don't know what lessons he might've learned. The title of the thread just happens to be "Battle Garegga is a work of sublime genius", which to me seems like a stupid statement when it's explained (even by the OP) with a gameplay style that was completely shaped by the players and not the creator, Yagawa.

Man alive. You'd have thought that I named the thread "Yagawa is God, Garegga is perfect, and anyone who may disagree is a subhuman cretin." If i'd had any inclination that it would have caused so much confusion and butt-flustering, I would have called it "CAUTION: I think Garegga is genius."
As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not a proponent of your Yagawa cult. In fact, Garegga is so far the first and only game I've played featuring his design. The current title isn't a great one, granted, but I wasn't aware that something so petty would be so deeply scrutinized. I genuinely apologize if I've somehow inadvertently annoyed any of you with my shitty thread title.

And besides, it's just opinions, innit?

EDIT: Maybe it would help if I elaborated on why I chose the title. It's because I wanted to express admiration for the game. Perhaps that will clear some things up.

[Cagar]

-

[jepjepjep]

I've given up playing Garegga for score. It's challenging enough for me to have fun just going for low-rank clears. For me, what makes Garegga so amazing is the "sekaikan". Yagawa gets all the credit, which he surely deserves admiration for, but the contributions of the artists and Namiki deserve accolades as well. It all comes together to create a really tremendous game. Batrider is a close second, but I don't think it quite reaches the heights of Garegga, it's a little too silly at times. I like MMP's system and mechanics probably better than those two, but the aesthetics don't do it for me. Ibara is pretty awesome, but I still don't think it reaches the heights of Garegga. Man, stage 7 is so epic with the opening music, then BH2 and Glow Squid.

I can understand not liking Garegga, it's unforgiving at times, the bullets can be hard to see, the rank can get stupid later on in the game. But if you can't appreciate Stage 7, I don't know what's wrong with you. Then again I also love SF2 World Warrior so maybe I'm the lunatic. That game was mind-blowing when it came out.

[phase3]

The fandom is the worst thing about Garegga.

It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game. It's never enthusiastic converse, it's "this is the best thing ever and it's so deep, if you don't get it you're thick". Followed by "rank is stupid, you're all stupid".

So, despite my better judgement, I've given this some thought.

What you're trying to say is the worst part of the game is the people who enjoy it. But, in the end, it doesn't affect your own enjoyment. Then what is it worth even mentioning, then? How can something be a problem when it's not a problem?

Also, are you sure you're reading the same thread as the rest of us? I have seen very little outside of civil and generally informative discourse, which is quite pleasant when something as divisive as Garegga is being discussed. Both "sides of the argument" seem to approach the topic with some element of insight, all of which is totally welcome. I think this whole "fan vs non-fan" narrative may be a bit overblown. In fact, it wasn't something I even considered until you came out swinging at some perceived enemy for no good reason. There is no objective right or wrong here, and as far as I can tell, no one is attempting to allege otherwise. Relax.

[Shepardus]

As with any piece of media or culture, the context in which a game exists is an important part of its being. I think Despatche was saying something similar, albeit for a different purpose. If you can't talk about the game with anyone without wanting to plug your ears and gouge your eyes out (not saying that's the case here) then I think it's reasonable for that to make it hard to enjoy the game despite it not being any fault of the game itself, unless you're a hermit and never make social contact with other people (though that doesn't sound so unlikely for shmup players).

[Squire Grooktook]

There's no stg in existence that has that as an issue though.

Except maybe Touhou.

And that's only when people are talking about the story.

But even that is minuscule. Shmups aren't exactly known for huge fanbases, so huge annoying fanbases aren't much of a thing either.

[Nameschonvergeben]

it's not the case for touhou thanks for aksing

[Sumez]

It is the case for Touhou.
At the risk of taking this thread into the same territory as a ton of other threads that died on this forum - The Touhou fandom genuinely prevents me from enjoying the games. As shepardus said, it's not the fault of the game itself, but it's a real thing for me. It bothers me when there's a huge weeaboo fandom surrounding a game, where most of the people involved don't even know anything about the games. And it bothers me whenever people see someone playing a game like Futari or EspGaluda and describe it as a Touhou game, or whenever someone sees a game of ANY genre with more than 10 bullets visible at the same time, and declares that it's inspired by Touhou.

Garegga has nothing like this.

[Nameschonvergeben]

if you think youtube comments are the touhou community then that's your own problem

[BIL]

Touhou players I've seen on here tend to be really cool, guys like chum and Sapz and moozooh. The games themselves are pretty innocuous stuff, very Kiki Kaikai.

The fandom is pretty awful but to be honest so are fandoms and people in general. I remember trying to get a more mainstream forum I once frequented into stuff like Gradius and Raiden, oh god it attracted poseurs and scrubs like lint on velcro.

[Sumez]

if you think youtube comments are the touhou community then that's your own problem

I have no clue where you picked up this idea.

[phase3]

If you can't talk about the game with anyone without wanting to plug your ears and gouge your eyes out (not saying that's the case here) then I think it's reasonable for that to make it hard to enjoy the game despite it not being any fault of the game itself, unless you're a hermit and never make social contact with other people (though that doesn't sound so unlikely for shmup players).

TransatlanticFoe has made it clear that it doesn't make it hard for him to enjoy the game, to which I would ask what's the point in getting so worked up over it, then. That is, unless he's lying.
When I play games, my tendency is to actually play them. If people enjoying something in a way you don't like winds you up to the point of distraction, I sincerely recommend you seek therapy. There may be something in it for you. A reasonable reaction to people casually chatting about something you actually like shouldn't be "wow, I really hate these people."

Anyways, back on the main topic:

For me, what makes Garegga so amazing is the "sekaikan". Yagawa gets all the credit, which he surely deserves admiration for, but the contributions of the artists and Namiki deserve accolades as well. It all comes together to create a really tremendous game.

Absolutely agreed. Garegga could easily have the same mechanics without the "sekaikan," or vice versa, and it wouldn't be near the achievement it is all things considered. Namiki's superb score adds enough to the game by itself to make Garegga a favorite of mine, but cumulatively it ends up standing alone in both it's unique style, and in its substance, as the favorite of my collection.

[TransatlanticFoe]

lol I think you are overestimating how much I am "worked up" about it. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game but it does affect my enjoyment of reading about the game, ergo this forum. Ergo done with this thread

[phase3]

done with this thread

That's a shame. Your insightful contributions will surely be missed.

[Squire Grooktook]

Touhou players I've seen on here tend to be really cool, guys like chum and Sapz and moozooh.

Zengeku was awful but at least his unintentional account suicide generated some hilarity.

I've seen enough.

[BIL]

Yeah, wasn't keen on him tbh. Quality headshot by bloodf though!

[Squire Grooktook]

Chum is indeed a favorite of mine. Much more likable than our local Cave superplayers ( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º)

I kid, I kid, you're all great <3

[BIL]

Any snow fairy that can withstand the bounty killing road of Gun.Smoke is A-OK with me. Those guys are hardcore, I was moved to pick up a few of their favoured touhous for future reference.

I knew I was forgetting something - pony pedo chap aside, I'd say codergames: daifukkatsu had the best account incineration of recent years. Dropped 'im like a sack of spuds.

"How do you do, fellow kids?"

[Despatche]

So do hundreds or thousands of others too.

Horribly incorrect, especially shown in recent years. Individuals who are able to make cool games are prized commodities. Never mind that the vast majority of games are team efforts, though in the case of a game like Garegga, the programmer (not just the programming) is a very large part of it.

I don't know if you can't read or if you just don't understand the difference between
"Know how to make" and "Is able to make/has made"

I could go on and on about the difference between those two things, but you don't want to hear it; you're just trying to press your highly specific point of "waah garegga sucks".

Alright, it's different than others, I'll totally give it that, but what I meant was more like "nothing out of ordinary in terms of fun." I could've made this clearer maybe.
Genres and their formulas are twisted all the time, and that doesn't guarantee a good or a special game, nor does it need a great designer or a mastermind to happen. Recca, to me, is just another take on the genre. Pretty nice one too like I already said, but I can't see how it's somehow... specially ingenuous? It's not well known at all. If someone could point me out some things about Recca that somehow completely changed the genre or left a big impact, I'd appreciate it. Obviously answers where Yagawa wasn't involved again, are preferred. EDIT: Okay, Squire already did to an extent

Thank God that "fun" is an entirely different thing for every person, then.

Friendly reminder that the genre was changed by a clone of a three-year-old game.

Yeah no idea of what you're talking about here. Why would you suddenly think that I hate this genre, and specifically for that reason?

You have that same mindset.

I'm guessing that by what you mean here by fighting game genre being a happy accident, is that cancelling moves to others in Street Fighter series was originally a bug.
Yes, unintended things are bound to happen in everything, and they very often shape the end result. The developers of SF noticed this move cancelling bug during development, but deliberately decided to keep it in the game. It influenced their design and they kept it. It became part of their official release plan. They acknowledged it, knew how it affects the game and how it's played optimally with it, they maybe even adjusted some moves because of it. Who knows? We don't, but we know for sure that they knew about it and decided to keep it.

Street Fighter II was never meant to be a multiplayer game. The multiplayer was a fun side mode that happened to get popular for reasons that Capcom was never able to understand, but were able to capitalize on.

Not one part of The World Warrior's actual gameplay was intentional design, except chip damage I guess (which is just an easy fix to a really dumb problem). It's also a horribly busted game, so the suggestion that an incredibly esoteric detail influenced development in any real way makes a million times less sense than the Super Metroid cult. Only the best from Cagar!

Now, can I still praise the developers for coming up with this idea?
-No, because they didn't. It was accidental.
Can I praise them for noticing it, seeing how if affects the game, and making the choice to keep it?
-Absolutely, that was a very smart choice. It's still a cornerstone of the whole genre, and it's all thanks to their decision to keep it instead of fixing it like some other unintended bug.

Can I praise garegga's visionary for the bugs, tricks and playstyles that he did not acknowledge or plan around during development?
-No.
Can I praise him for keeping these elements in his future games?
-Of course, but it doesn't take a genius or a masterful designer to keep something in your games that people liked, be it intentional or not. But the more important bit: Even at that point, I still can't credit him for designing the playstyle that the game was in the end played with, because they were out of his original scope. Like I said before, he even himself admitted that the rank system was just a method to get more coins from players - it wasn't designed to be completely manipulated by the players. That was not his intention nor the design purpose of that feature, so I can't credit him for it. It's simple, really. I can't believe that I had to write a post this long to express this. It's the same as if I called the inventor of toothbrush a pleasure device mastermind, because I use one to scratch my balls.
Is the next step of Yagawa fandom to say that he just lies, and secretly knew that players would completely figure out rank manipulation, milking etc. and that he adjusted the game and its systems based on that vision entirely? Time will tell...

EDIT: And I'm literally judging Yagawa's design skills and creativity based on Battle garegga alone, not his other (or future) games. I'm not even sure what he he has done after that, and I don't know what lessons he might've learned. The title of the thread just happens to be "Battle Garegga is a work of sublime genius", which to me seems like a stupid statement when it's explained (even by the OP) with a gameplay style that was completely shaped by the players and not the creator, Yagawa.

The only thing that was ever really argued was that the rank system was on purpose. Yes, some people are mindless fanboys, but a lot more are simply anti-fanboys who try to push that the game is a giant bug. Yes, it's totally reasonable that the full extent of rank was conceived to get more quarters... but Garegga isn't a quarter muncher. The absolute vast majority of Garegga was on purpose. Having to deal with the item schedule, invincible enemy parts, every single bit of scoring, and the way rank basically works were all on purpose. The only thing that wasn't on purpose was the full logical conclusion of how far you could possibly push rank, with all the routes we have in 2016. That is never on purpose for most games, even meticulously designed ones.

Despatche, I've noticed something. Each time you're arguing, you completely move the goalposts to your liking to almost the opposite ends of narrow and wide, even several times in a single post.
You might latch onto some word or sentence, blow it out of proportion COMPLETELY, and in the next paragraph you sum another whole subject to a vague small sentence similiar to "The entire fighting game genre was a gigantic happy accident" because hey, you just don't feel like elaborating because you know how little you actually thought about it.
I feel like I finally realized what's so annoying about your posts and why some people call you 'autistic'. You cannot keep the validity & accuracy of terms coherent, on about the same level as other people in the same discussion do. You just swing from wide goal to narrow so much that it's difficult to answer to, because it's so fucking hard to follow (if not impossible with the text you've given). You've several times wondered how other people are just idiots who don't understand you, and this is my answer to it. Seriously in my opinion you just need more social contact, and I don't mean this in a negative tone.

The master of goalpost adjustment and having complete meltdowns over the absolute strangest things in the world is accusing me of changing the goalposts. Not original, not funny, not interesting.

The nature of Street Fighter II's development isn't just well documented, I chose that example specifically to target you.

Noone actually calls me autistic except for weirdos like Xyga who legitimately think it's funny. I'm usually the one calling myself autistic, as a joke.

You're on record for going to the dark side, sir. I really don't want to hear you give me that classic 4chan-level projection. You aren't even good enough to be on the dark side, you've gotta resort to your old tactics.

You're "literally" nothing. You used to be a cool dude, but all you've done for the past few years is cause trouble in your sad little attempt to quit the genre. Some people may still respect you, but I do not. Noone ever really respected me (a few have... you certainly haven't), so that's not an issue.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd say codergames: daifukkatsu had the best account incineration of recent years. Dropped 'im like a sack of spuds.

"How do you do, fellow kids?"

Oh shit I missed this one. Beautiful.



Ingenious disguise.