Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

[lilmanjs]

I'm ashamed to admit that as somebody who makes mods/addons/TCs (whatever you wanna call it) for Wolf3d, I've taken years to work on my second thing. Playing too many other games. People hate me for not liking Doom, and I see its importance in gaming history, but I just don't feel it like I do with Wolf3d stuff.

[Lord Satori]

I wouldn't say I hate FPS's, I just hate the ones that contribute virtually nothing to the gaming world and become more meaningless with each new iteration. I think you know which ones I'm talking about.

It's cool to hate CoD and BF now, but that's short sighted because the games are still good. Just think of it as revisions and map packs. Would you want to play the same 16 maps for half a decade? No.

Bad excuse. It's easy to make map packs that are actual MAP PACKS and not as 60 dollar games. While they may be fun for a time, those games are basically glorified marketting schemes.

[Squire Grooktook]

I wouldn't say I hate FPS's, I just hate the ones that contribute virtually nothing to the gaming world and become more meaningless with each new iteration. I think you know which ones I'm talking about.

It's cool to hate CoD and BF now, but that's short sighted because the games are still good.

I think that's a matter of opinion. I've heard a lot of people make some very intricate arguments that many installments are not well designed games.

On the other hand, it's probably pretty subjective..

[system11]

I wouldn't say I hate FPS's, I just hate the ones that contribute virtually nothing to the gaming world and become more meaningless with each new iteration. I think you know which ones I'm talking about.

It's cool to hate CoD and BF now, but that's short sighted because the games are still good. Just think of it as revisions and map packs. Would you want to play the same 16 maps for half a decade? No.

Bad excuse. It's easy to make map packs that are actual MAP PACKS and not as 60 dollar games. While they may be fun for a time, those games are basically glorified marketting schemes.

People won't keep buying map packs for an old engine past a year, they want updated engines and play abilities too. Sometimes this works out better than others.

I don't understand all the hate, it's stupid. If they didn't exist nothing is going to magically come up with RADICAL NEW IDEAS to fill the void, someone with less practise will simply make CoD-lite. They're one of the few franchises (along with Battlefield) who actually release meaningful DLC too rather than cynically locking trivial or cosmetic things behind a DLC paywall on release day.

The only real evil being committed at this point is the increase of 'retailer exclusive' or 'preorder' content, but that's something which is affecting the majority of current gaming and not particular to the franchise FPS market.

[Squire Grooktook]

Most of the hate is that, even outside of a niche community like this, CoD has come to basically symbolize everything bland and unimaginative with modern AAA western productions. Realistic military fps etc.

[system11]

Most of the hate is that, even outside of a niche community like this, CoD has come to basically symbolize everything bland and unimaginative with modern AAA western productions. Realistic military fps etc.

Blame the media and customers. Companies make games which are safe bets, because development costs are so high. Costs are high because gamers are so demanding in terms of graphics, voice acting, soundtrack etc. High costs means high unit sales are required, in the millions - hence taking safe bets most of the time.

Oh, and people /like realistic military fps/. Everyone needs to just deal with it. This latest one adds exoskeletons for lots of jumping and boosting, but you can bet the classic mode is going to be very busy with people (like me) who want none of that bullshit.

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh, and people /like realistic military fps/.

They did, but it seems like the pendulum is swinging back now. Like I said, even outside of niche communities like this, it seems that kind of aesthetic and gameplay style has grown tiresome for a lot of people.

[drauch]

I'd be right there with you for arguing for the DLC if the games were longer than fucking 4 hours.

[ColonelFatso]

I played Tribes: Ascend on a damn near daily basis from mid 2012-mid 2013. The last time I had played an FPS like that was back in the days of CS 1.5, and it was nice to revisit the genre after a nearly decade long* absence.

I wanted so badly to like T:A, and for a while it worked. But while it is in most respects an excellent game and undoubtedly my favourite FPS of the modern era, it's not really a good Tribes game. Most of the freedom and wealth of options that made teamplay in Tribes 1 and 2 such a creative and fulfilling experience are missing from T:A, and dumb lazy shit like the jetpack physics, hard and soft speed caps, 140788 minute variations of the same gun for different special-snowflake 'classes', etc. began to irk me more and more until I called it quits about a year ago.

I'd still recommend it to anyone who loves Capture the Flag games as the best modern example of the gametype.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Conventions get exploited to death. Remember space shooters? What was the newest shmup you played really fitting the bill?

[BryanM]

Yeah, I do have a lot of latent jealousy inside about the matter. All the other genres went through their lifecycles all the way to the grave of the niche phase (including DIKU type MMO's), but sports games and the brown NFL Blitz style military shooter have proven rather robust. I can't really reconcile why - maybe they do appeal to people who don't play video games, so they don't get burned out on copy-pasta games like we do. Everyone knows That Guy who ONLY plays one type of thing, and no other types of things.

At least the endurance of Pokemon is understandable with people buying them for a new generation of kids..

if the games were longer than fucking 4 hours

dat art budget. It's fun paying more to get less, ne?

[system11]

Oh, and people /like realistic military fps/.

They did, but it seems like the pendulum is swinging back now. Like I said, even outside of niche communities like this, it seems that kind of aesthetic and gameplay style has grown tiresome for a lot of people.

You'd be surprised, the Ghosts sales were IMO an anomaly due to the switch of generations and the fact that Ghosts wasn't very good. BF4 was released long before it was ready and still did well. That said, AC Unity has a good chance at #1 this Christmas I think. I liked Black Flag but I'm not buying this due to 'forced parity' reasons.

[Xyga]

The future is loli FPS.

[Obiwanshinobi]

One bubble that might be about to burst are street racing games.
Maybe first person shooters and racers are such a safe bet for the industry because games got pretty good at creating those illusions. Nobody wants their once-suspended disbelief back.

[system11]

One bubble that might be about to burst are street racing games.
Maybe first person shooters and racers are such a safe bet for the industry because games got pretty good at creating those illussions. Nobody wants their once-suspended disbelief back.

It's a shame most of them are trash. Nothing has really touched Midnight Club 2. MC3 was 'ok' but CTF mode was ruined, MCLA was poor. The simple feature of being able to place checkpoints on the city map added so much to that game, but the handling was sublime too.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I ought to give L.A. Rush a chance one of these days (on PC, where I read crash scenes can be skipped). At least the game engine (one of reasons why I thought MCII on PS2 rocked so hard) seems promising...

[system11]

I ought to give L.A. Rush a chance one of these days (on PC, where I read crash scenes can be skipped). At least the game engine (one of reasons why I thought MCII on PS2 rocked so hard) seems promising...

I started with MC2 on PS2 and then migrated to Xbox due to population decline. The Xbox version was a better game, flawless 60fps.

[Obiwanshinobi]

NTSC version looked like 30 fps to me on PS2, but rock-steady at that. Immediate restarting was the selling point (just how huge, seamless game awaits after only one loading). Past that point the technology wouldn't need much further improvement for my money, making the genre safe bet for everyone. Now they can keep making those racers 'till the cows come home.

[quash]

I played Tribes: Ascend on a damn near daily basis from mid 2012-mid 2013. The last time I had played an FPS like that was back in the days of CS 1.5, and it was nice to revisit the genre after a nearly decade long* absence.

I wanted so badly to like T:A, and for a while it worked. But while it is in most respects an excellent game and undoubtedly my favourite FPS of the modern era, it's not really a good Tribes game. Most of the freedom and wealth of options that made teamplay in Tribes 1 and 2 such a creative and fulfilling experience are missing from T:A, and dumb lazy shit like the jetpack physics, hard and soft speed caps, 140788 minute variations of the same gun for different special-snowflake 'classes', etc. began to irk me more and more until I called it quits about a year ago.

I'd still recommend it to anyone who loves Capture the Flag games as the best modern example of the gametype.

The game definitely needed some refinement. I feel like with increased inheritance, a slightly faster overall pace and actual weapon balancing (not the variant BS like you were saying), the game would've been a lot better.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Do people play Tribes: Ascend with 360 controllers? Can developers get away with - even PC-exclusive - games unoptimised for that nowadays?

[Vexorg]

When it comes to FPS games, controller players and KB/mouse players just don't mix, since controller players are generally at a major disadvantage. I remember reading an article from some developers who attempted to balance the two for one of their games at one point, and ultimately gave up on it because even average skilled KB/M players would consistently destroy high-level controller players.

[BryanM]

Hahaha, that reminds me of the time I made my first Breakout clone.

Thinking of it more as batting a tennis ball against the wall with your hand (or air hockey), I made the paddle linked to your mouse cursor position. This gave you infinite speed - no matter how fast the ball was or how small the playing field, it was almost impossible to die.

In retrospect it's rather telling how little I like breakout clones that I didn't realize limited paddle velocity is absolutely essential for these types of games. It's... pretty fundamental.

Someone playing an FPS with infinite turning velocity like with a mouse versus someone limited with the straightjacket of a stick... yeah. Like a seal versus a polar bear. All you can do is cripple the guy on the PC, and all you end up with is an FPS that's viewed as bad.

This is kind of making me sad about how there's basically zero AAA joypad games made for the computer that aren't just console ports..

[Xyga]

I love playing FPS on a console with a gamepad.
With shitty graphics, shitty framerate, alone.
PSX DOOM has to be my all-time favorite, similar games were called 'DOOM-like' at the time, when people started to call them 'FPS' I had already lost interest in the genre.
I've played it on PC with enhanced everything and full controls, even the same sound, light effects etc, but it bored me.
Wish I could play BD on my PS1. *sigh*

[Xan]

I love PSX Doom too, definitely prefer it over the PC version. The creepy ambient music and colored lighting make for a nearly perfect experience IMO.

[drauch]

Ya'll some squirelly mofos!

[system11]

New CoD arrived today. Graphics are great, controls are really tight. Can't speak for the MP maps yet. I suspect it will do well.

[Lord Satori]

I don't think there's anything that could make that franchise NOT do well. One of the most recent ones was a bug ridden abomination, and here are, so of course it will do well.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Hahaha, that reminds me of the time I made my first Breakout clone.

Thinking of it more as batting a tennis ball against the wall with your hand (or air hockey), I made the paddle linked to your mouse cursor position. This gave you infinite speed - no matter how fast the ball was or how small the playing field, it was almost impossible to die.

In retrospect it's rather telling how little I like breakout clones that I didn't realize limited paddle velocity is absolutely essential for these types of games. It's... pretty fundamental.

Shatter and BreakQuest did mouse controls well (although I suppose Shatter is easier played this way, it's by no means broken).

Someone playing an FPS with infinite turning velocity like with a mouse versus someone limited with the straightjacket of a stick... yeah. Like a seal versus a polar bear. All you can do is cripple the guy on the PC, and all you end up with is an FPS that's viewed as bad.

Apparently the only difficulty tweak Halo took to put a good fight against m&k-wielders was turning auto-aim OFF. The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay got arguably too easy on PC, but Halo is challenging enough.
Speaking of which, what console games allow users to disable auto-aim? World War Zero is one, as I read some PS2-gen CoD is.
Oh yes, the canyon stage of XIII wasn't popular with console gamers, but on PC it made for some the greatest fun I've had with this kind of game.

This is kind of making me sad about how there's basically zero AAA joypad games made for the computer that aren't just console ports..

Crimson Skies and and Moto Racer detect analogue gamepad as joystick and are pretty playable this way. Both from the time and age when I doubt it was intended.
Then there are games like GTA when on PC I control dudes with m&k but control vehicles with a joypad. For some reason I didn't bother using pad at all in Total Overdose, but it's a TPP shooter disguised as a GTA clone.

[Sinful]

I don't hate, but I don't play them either.

Don't invite me to play one though, or I'll get angry.
You don't want to see me angry.

What a-boot 3rd person shooters?!


In reply to this topic, I have to say I really didn't get into this genre yet. Sure I played Goldeneye N64 just like everyone else, but once I beat that game and had some brief multiplayer at that too (which didn't last long at all cause I only enjoyed the complex stage), I never bothered with that game ever again. In fact, I only played it cause it was James Bond and it was pretty interesting playing along watching the movie... I also don't quite get why this game is still so highly regarded as a classic. As I didn't think that then, nor now.

Never played Doom/Quake or Duke Nukem 3D back in the day.

The closest I came to this genre is via Mass Effect series and especially the multiplayer of part 3 (which at first I was very upset they were wasting their time with multiplayer instead of more single player work being done, only to find out I enjoyed and played way, way more multiplayer then single player)... In fact I'm in multiplayer of that game right now, after my second break from this game. I also finally unlocked everything in this game too.

But I don't know if I want to play any other 3rd person shooters either? Only got into this series because the lore and setup behind this series basically rivals Star Wars... only too bad the original lead writer left during part 2, as I've now given up hope of this series too... gameplay in part 3 multiplayer was very good for quite some time, until... I got good enough at the game too see it could of been balanced much better. Sigh. But for a Western developed game, they did a pretty good job anyways. Especially before the DLCs kept adding more and more things by a new dev team to keep breaking the game more and more.

[*]Vanquish is a single-player TPS but you have to approach it with an "STG attitude" to get the most out of it - probably explains why the mainstream never really warmed up to it.

Isn't that game like the only fps developed by a Japanese dev team? Would explain why it may be the only fps done right. Western devs just don't get proper design and balance from what I always see. So no surprise to hear you say that.

[Squire Grooktook]

Vanquish isn't a first person shooter, it's third person shooter. It was made by Platinum Games, the same guys who did Bayonetta and other 3d action games that have a similar arcadey mindset.

Play Doom and Quake also. Very arcadey as well.