Are some western shmup players lazy when it comes to shmups?

[sethsez]

The comparison is illogical, of course, but those percentages tend to be higher, for the sole reason that there's much more of a "gray area" of good but not outstanding (i.e. top ten) players in Japan.

Well, yeah. It's more popular in general over there than it is here, so there are going to be more good players. But most players are just that... good. Not great.

Additionally, people here hate Garegga for the same reason most Japanese gamers hate FPS... it simply doesn't click with them and mesh with their playstyle.

Most people hate Garegga because the game is a fiend from hell bent on world domination of the reactionary shmup fun...in their mind."It doesn't click with me" too sucks as a definition, there's no mystic power but your (free?) will in charge of such an issue...or: you may not like a game, but in this specific case, most hate-mongers have proved to go witch-hunting, instead of just saying, "meh, i don't like it". Personally, i'd rather go to a dentist every day than play Ikaruga, but the said game is still a work of genius. Also, you're the one with willpower and personal tastes, you're the one not to like things and not things to click with you:let's be in charge of our lives

I hate Ikaruga as much as I hate Garegga. I don't think either one sucks, but I don't enjoy playing them, so I think "it doesn't click with me" is a perfectly valid reason for me not to play it. It's not a comment on the quality of the game itself.

As for making myself like a game... why? There are plenty of games I can enjoy without forcing myself to enjoy them, and I don't consider Garegga (or any game) to be on a level of genius that I should force myself to gain an appreciation for them. This ain't Ingmar Bergman or Proust, where advanced appreciation can be intellectually stimulating. These are, at the end of the day, still relatively shallow pieces of entertainment. I might try to make myself like James Joyce in an effort to broaden my intellectual horizons, but I'll be damned if I'll do the same for Dan Brown.

Likewise, I don't get any enjoyment out of futzing with ranking systems, especially in vertical shooters (I prefer horizontal), so I spend time getting better at the Darius series instead. It's still hard work, but it's hard work I enjoy doing. And of course, this again applies to games in general.

All Dariuses have a nasty rank system, but beside that, the work would be easier if you could have help, no?That's why i write guides, to help out people.Again, i think that a few western players sitting down and cracking out an engine would get more or less the same results as players from any side of the world...One factor may be personal taboos: i think that westerners have a slightly higher tendency not to exploit bugs or hacks.Say "autofire" and many players will frown, i bet.

Heh, westerners love exploiting bugs. Once again, watch a FPS speedrun. If it can be abused, it'll be abused. I agree they're not as fond of hacks, though.

And yes, Garegga could be made easier. With practice, I could get better at it. But the issue isn't ease, or ability to get high scores. The issue is enjoyability. If I don't enjoy the core gameplay, then even if I'm very good at it and can beat it with one hand tied behind my back, I still won't like it (believe me, I was forced to do this a lot when I was a kid and couldn't buy games on my own). That's what it all comes down to... you admitted to hating Ikaruga, but why haven't you sunk 200 hours into it yet? For the same reason. You'd rather play Garegga. Nothing wrong with that. Same thing applies to games in general, and why I continue to feel that western gamers ignore the genre because they simply don't care much about it, not because they're too lazy to really get into it.

[Randorama]

"It doesn't click with me" too sucks as a definition, there's no mystic power but your (free?) will in charge of such an issue...

I think he's basically saying the same thing as you are, when you get right down to it...I guess it depends on who's saying it, but at least for me saying that something "didn't click" isn't saying that some supernatural force "made" me dislike it, just that certain parts of it didn't appeal to me, although they did appeal to others. Like you with Ikaruga: you acknowledge the game's appeal, but parts of it just "didn't click," so to speak, not because of unseen forces, but because you personally don't like them.

Sorry for going off-topic, but I don't think that most people who say that a game "doesn't click" with them mean anything different than you when you say "I don't like it." At least that's the case with me, anyways.

No.
It's not the game that has to click with you, as the engines aren't tailored on "personalities".I willingly and rationally don't like an x thing because i have a will power and decide that something is not of my taste, it's not the thing itself that has to adjust to my random tastes.Rationality and agenthood are the key.Unless you want to believe that you're a pawn of higher powers, of course

These are, at the end of the day, still relatively shallow pieces of entertainment. I might try to make myself like James Joyce in an effort to broaden my intellectual horizons, but I'll be damned if I'll do the same for Dan Brown.

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe.Videogames, on the other hand, force you to reason in order to obtain a reward.Not anyone wants the maximum reward, but i'd say that that westerners are more "black and white", or maybe black and gray...in the sense that most don't give a fuck about mastering a game (black or white, you choose), a tiny percentage likes to master games but not too much (i.e. they stop when the critical issue becomes sheer volume of work:let's say gray), s tiny fragment masters games (white or black).

That's what it all comes down to... you admitted to hating Ikaruga, but why haven't you sunk 200 hours into it yet? For the same reason.

Well, the advantage of experience is learning to predict when i'm willing to spend time with something.I played Ikaruga for about...70 hours, i think, and stopped at 20 M roughly.Then i said "enough, at least for me".After 20 years, i can figure out in a pretty scientific way when it's enough for me.

Beside that, yeah, hacks are a big taboo for us, i think But also, compared to the standard japanese arcade approach, we tend to lack the "extended" approach: personally, i tend to focus a few months on a title, then move to something else.I can nail 6-8 70-80% scores in a year, whereas your average "good" japanese player is more into 1-2 80-90%
per year. If you measure sheer hours and knowledge, i think we're even.
However, i'd put more effort to a title if having a good amount of cooperation on it.Honestly, some of my best results in the past were based off teamwork (for instance, i had an excellent score on Raystorm, but i knew of at least other 5 people being great players too, and in the same arcade).

[pixelcorps]

\

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe..

oh puh - LEASE!!

[sethsez]

No.
It's not the game that has to click with you, as the engines aren't tailored on "personalities".I willingly and rationally don't like an x thing because i have a will power and decide that something is not of my taste, it's not the thing itself that has to adjust to my random tastes.Rationality and agenthood are the key.Unless you want to believe that you're a pawn of higher powers, of course

So you're saying a person not only has complete control over their tastes (which I disagree with), but that they should actively change their tastes to conform to what other people think are great, despite them seeing things otherwise?

In other words, I find Garegga dull as dirt, but since you think it's the bee's knees I should change my tastes to conform to yours? This also gets into the murky depths of "my tastes and opinions are objectively correct" which is obnoxious at best, dangerous at worst.

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe.Videogames, on the other hand, force you to reason in order to obtain a reward.

I couldn't disagree more. Videogames have a worth of exactly fuck all. Any worth "working gets you a reward" might have on someone's development tops out at about age 7.

Well, the advantage of experience is learning to predict when i'm willing to spend time with something.I played Ikaruga for about...70 hours, i think, and stopped at 20 M roughly.Then i said "enough, at least for me".After 20 years, i can figure out in a pretty scientific way when it's enough for me.

What science is this?

Sorry, but you seem to enjoy over-intellectualizing things that boil down to "I play what I like because I like it."

[BulletMagnet]

No.
It's not the game that has to click with you, as the engines aren't tailored on "personalities".

Would it be better, then, to say "I didn't click with the videogame," so that the person is doing the clicking rather than the game, or what? Or does the word "click" in itself present a problem, as it implies a knee-jerk reaction more than a drawn-out analysis? At any rate, I still honestly don't think that someone who says "The game didn't click with me" means anything different than one who says "I don't like the game"; if you really want to get into semantics that's one thing, but as far as the actual message beneath the words, I would venture to say that it's the same, at least most of the time.

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe.Videogames, on the other hand, force you to reason in order to obtain a reward.

Guess I'll toss another on top of what will surely become a sizeable pile, heh heh. Honestly, you can't really believe that gaming is more mentally stimulating than a good book...not only are you very much "forced to reason" in order to make sense of many books, but since you often aren't given any images or sounds to work with, you need to use your mind to picture what's going on, instead of just your eyes and ears. Games are good and all, and knowing how to play them well is fine, but neither is any substitute for being a good reader. If they were, then why haven't the schools replaced their bookshelves with arcade cabs?

[pixelcorps]

anyone that overintellectuallises videogames, then spouts they have a "scientific formula" to figure out why they dont want to play a game anymore, and sees more worth in a videogame than literature needs some long, stern words with themselves in a mirror before its too late.

[sethsez]

if you really want to get into semantics

It does seem that way.

[pixelcorps]

I'm getting a front row seat and some popcorn for the rest of this thread

[sethsez]

Don't bother. At this point it doesn't appear that either of us is going to budge, or influence each other in any way. If that winds up being the case, I'm going to bow out before it becomes a bitch-fest.

[landshark]

Wait, am I too late? Can I pull out my shlong too?

[pixelcorps]

Don't bother. At this point it doesn't appear that either of us is going to budge, or influence each other in any way. If that winds up being the case, I'm going to bow out before it becomes a bitch-fest.

s'got nothing to do with you, bro, I'm waiting for randorama to come back

[sethsez]

Wait, am I too late? Can I pull out my shlong too?

Schlongs have more intrinsic value than literature.

[Icarus]

Funny how Garegga always finds it's way into a discussion of this type. -_-;;

On Topic:
I play a game to see if I like it. If I dislike the gameplay and the systems, I get rid of it. If I like the gameplay and the systems, I invest time in it's study. My time each day is limited, so I spend my time playing just one or two games at a time, usually for a period of over a few months until I lose interest or I meet my intended scoring target, whichever comes first.

I play games because I enjoy them. It's the best way to unwind after a hard day of work. Occasionally I like to read a book. Or flick through a manga. Or watch anime. Or switch off the lights, turn on my iPod, and relax to some tunes. Or grab a movie and some popcorn. Or meet friends and have fun drinking/playing sport/socialising/whatever. Or paint, draw, and design. But games have always given me mental stimulation, that's why I enjoy it.

My natural competitiveness always leads me to compete with others on pretty much everything from career goals (training to be a graphic designer, a very competitive industry) to sports (active basketball player) to games (shmups scoreattacker, as you can guess). Because of that, I tend to enjoy helping out others interested I'm competing with using my limited knowledge and experience, as I feel that if the level of competition around me improves, then it'll spur me on to improve myself, to stay ahead of the pack as it were.

I do feel that Western players can be lazy at times, but "laziness", for want of a better word, is all a matter of preference and conditioning. You're either a jack-of-all-trades, or you're a master of one.

[sethsez]

Funny how Garegga always finds it's way into a discussion of this type. -_-;;

It's a useful parallel, since the reasons why many shmup fans hate Garegga are more focused variations on why many gamers hate shmups.

[Randorama]

[
So you're saying a person not only has complete control over their tastes (which I disagree with)

Yes, when fully in charge of his mind.Of course, subliminals, gods and astral influences are external forces.

, but that they should actively change their tastes to conform to what other people think are great, despite them seeing things otherwise?

uh?

In other words, I find Garegga dull as dirt, but since you think it's the bee's knees I should change my tastes to conform to yours? This also gets into the murky depths of "my tastes and opinions are objectively correct" which is obnoxious at best, dangerous at worst.

Ah, i see. No, your taste is your choice, if you don't like game x it's because you don't find its mechanics to be appealing, not because Zeus told you so.Of course, i'm sending the CIA during the night to implant nanoids in your brain to make you change your opinion on the game, but that's another issue

I couldn't disagree more. Videogames have a worth of exactly fuck all. Any worth "working gets you a reward" might have on someone's development tops out at about age 7.

Care to expand into rational arguments those lines? Reaing thousand of pages of the same 7 or 8 plots reashed forever is like watching tv, from a matter of intellectual activitity, i.e. amount of neurons triggered during sai d activity. Learning new systems of rules (i.e. new games) may be (note, there's a may) more stimulating for your cognitive processes. Frankly, literature is overated...especially sacred one.That's when culture conditioning kicks in and you feel compelled to defend it.Beside that, that's so off-topic that it may as well as go to intellectualfrants.com

(Ah, note, you may drop games entirely as well, or your life.You tend to do things for a reward.Of course, you can tell me that you're just having fun by just doing random movements and seeing things happen on screen.In that case, well, damn no brains and their "fun", of course).

Sorry, but you seem to enjoy over-intellectualizing things that boil down to "I play what I like because I like it."

Well, skipping Pixelcorps' pathetic trolling, "overintellectualizing" is a tad reductive.If you want to brand as overintellactualization everything which is explained in detail, you can skip any form of science and say "duh, it's a star, it sends heat and light". Of course, you can do the same about cases of guys putting random words from random languages into random plots.You can also go to those Nash guy and tell him that his theory of games is for 7 years olds. Or countless many examples...

[pixelcorps]

i'm not trolling, you've just proved in your last post you are really are quite mad.

[Randorama]

i'm not trolling, you've just proved in your last post you are really are quite mad.

I'm skipping your posts from now on, sorry. If you re-read this last comment of yours, you may understand why.

[sethsez]

No, you're over-intellectualizing because you're not reaching any meaningful conclusions, nor are you really providing any reasonable basis for them. When science gets down into details, it does so for a reason. What you're doing is playing games with semantics and saying simple things in a complex way. You're not making a simple point detailed, you're making a simple point drawn out.

Beyond that, when it comes to matters of taste, you're overlooking (purposefully or not) cultural influences, location and history. In days when everyone had to do hard work in the sun all day every day and didn't have much to eat, a woman who was slim and taned wasn't nearly as attractive as a pudgy and pale woman. The latter had wealth, and was incredibly attractive. The former was just another peasant. Someone raised in Korea is going to have very different tastes in food than someone raised in Germany. People in Egypt and people in Alaska probably have very different opinions on what "acceptable temperature" means. Someone raised in India is going to have different expectations for a movie's pacing and format than someone raised in America.

These are all matters of taste, but they're very rarely 100% issues of choice. Nobody is completely isolated from society, and that definitely has an impact. I mean, hell, isn't that the basis of this thread in the first place?

[pixelcorps]

fine , ignore me, who the hell are you again?

I'm dying to hear more of your theory that

"Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe."

where did you learn such pseudointellectual guff to spout such an truly laughable soundbite? DODONPACHI?

the history of this entire PLANET, the information and knowledge of great thinkers and philosophers handed down from generation to generation to construct everything you own, the very theories that create every convenience, concept and theory you cannot live without including your vastly important videogames, were carried by literature.

[sethsez]

yeah, but in mushihimesama you have to work for a reward

i mean, come on, even rats can't do that... oh wai

[pixelcorps]

LOL!

I hear nietzche , einstein , chaucer and tolstoy could all 1CC dimahoo back in the day...

[Randorama]

No, you're over-intellectualizing because you're not reaching any meaningful conclusions, nor are you really providing any reasonable basis for them. When science gets down into details, it does so for a reason. What you're doing is playing games with semantics and saying simple things in a complex way. You're not making a simple point detailed, you're making a simple point drawn out.

Meaningful conclusions:

1. I like games (i.e. i'm the one who decides, not the games) when i find specific factors in them

2. These factors are based on learning mechanics and getting a reward, which is a score.

3. This process has a specific reaction in our brains, "fun", or a sensation of enjoyment, because we learn something and thus our survival chances are increased.Not really, but our brains won't notice the difference, they're stuck to 10k years ago.

4.Some of the people involved in this process, in the land of Japan, in the social setting of arcades, like to develop a complete knowledge of a game, "mastery". Videogames are a product of high technology of the last 20 years or so, so invoking other settings is pointless.

5. Cultural differences are questionable, as it is more exact to speak about which influences and in what measure are present in the single individual. Example, i know of italians who, incredible but true, don't like pasta. There are also japanese players who refuse to play with hacks (yay, i'm on topic), hence the differentiated charts (autofire on/off).Nobody is completely molded by culture, regardless of the postmodern nazi propaganda's opinion.

6. When trying to explain a thing, i tend to go into detail (overiintellactualization in your anglophonic culture) before furnishing brief synopses.It's also true that often, when i discuss with someone, i don't know the exact flowchart of ideas i have in mind. It does happen that interaction with someone else may change my opinion. Synopses go at the end of a chapter or an article, which happen to be monologues on paper, not dialogues.

7. FPSes suck, because my shlong is obviously longer than yours (inner joke here ) .

[Randorama]

the history of this entire PLANET, the information and knowledge of great thinkers and philosophers handed down from generation to generation to construct everything you own, the very theories that create every convenience, concept and theory you cannot live without including your vastly important videogames, were carried by literature.

Didn't know that Tolstoj invented the steam machine, or: is "literature" any written text, in English? I happen to use the word to refer to fiction and novels. Which are a tad pointless. Of course, i'm not an important name, seems like it is important, no? So i can say any bullshit and be taken seriously

[sethsez]

Meaningful conclusions:

1. I like games (i.e. i'm the one who decides, not the games) when i find specific factors in them

So does everybody. When somebody says "I don't like this game" or "I like this game" it's implied that they have reasons for their feelings.

2. These factors are based on learning mechanics and getting a reward, which is a score.

And if that's what you enjoy, great! But it's personal taste (chosen or not) that makes you enjoy this. Some people find the reward to be disproportionate to the work involved, and thus don't enjoy it.

...our brains won't notice the difference, they're stuck to 10k years ago...

...Videogames are a product of high technology of the last 20 years or so, so invoking other settings is pointless...

Which is it?

As you said, westerners tend to be more focused on competition in games, while the Japanese are more focused on improving their own performance. Western gamers are jack of all trades, Japanese gamers are masters of one. Videogames may be a new thing, but this disparity is not.

5. Cultural differences are questionable, as it is more exact to speak about which influences and in what measure are present in the single individual. Example, i know of italians who, incredible but true, don't like pasta. There are also japanese players who refuse to play with hacks (yay, i'm on topic), hence the differentiated charts (autofire on/off).Nobody is completely molded by culture, regardless of the postmodern nazi propaganda's opinion.

Remember how, earlier, you were talking about how some people see things in black and white? That's exactly what you're doing now. I never said that people are completely molded by their culture. I said they are influenced by it. This is one case where you're really oversimplifying things.

[pixelcorps]

the history of this entire PLANET, the information and knowledge of great thinkers and philosophers handed down from generation to generation to construct everything you own, the very theories that create every convenience, concept and theory you cannot live without including your vastly important videogames, were carried by literature.

Didn't know that Tolstoj invented the steam machine, or: is "literature" any written text, in English? I happen to use the word to refer to fiction and novels. Which are a tad pointless. Of course, i'm not an important name, seems like it is important, no? So i can say any bullshit and be taken seriously

no, robert lewis stevenson invented the steam engine, and if his theories and concepts weren't available to read and learn from where would we be..

and i'd still say that a work fiction still has more worth than a videogame, it contains metaphor, nuances, poetic license, hidden meanings and subtexts, it allows for interpretation , deeper study and intellectual debate.

where is any of that in say raiden fighters?

i'll await the day when I see a shooter that expresses deep political metaphorical arguments, while remaining entertaining on the surface.

stick to your utterly moronic nonsensical theories, i'll let you spout your teenage pseudointellectual crap in peace now.

[Icarus]

i'll await the day when I see a shooter that expresses deep political metaphorical arguments, while remaining entertaining on the surface.

There are plenty of people that would claim that Ikaruga does all that you've just stated (I remember a thread on the Gamespy forums which went into several pages discussing the deep, spiritual messages the game presents). Personally, while I agree that Ikaruga is a great piece of design, it's also tripe, and an irritation, and absolutely no fun at all to play. But then, most would state that about the games I like as well.

Meh. Whatever.

[sethsez]

I always found the "deep meaning" of Ikaruga to be vastly overstated. Tossing around a million variations on the yin and the yang isn't particularly deep or spiritual. At least, no more so than the stoner who in a hushed tone exclaims that "we might all be dreaming right now, and reality is what we perceive as dreams."

I think Ikaruga gets as much attention as it does for being intelligent just because people were shocked to see anything approaching intellectual depth in a shooter. In the land of the blind and all that.

[Randorama]

So does everybody. When somebody says "I don't like this game" or "I like this game" it's implied that they have reasons for their feelings.

Including astral influences or not?

2. These factors are based on learning mechanics and getting a reward, which is a score.
And if that's what you enjoy, great! But it's personal taste (chosen or not) that makes you enjoy this.

Not exactly, in the sense that enjoyment always comes from learning (new things and improving old knowledge). Mindless fun is the closest thing to taking drugs, put in in simple words.

Some people find the reward to be disproportionate to the work involved, and thus don't enjoy it.

It's more about how much fun (new things/improving) you can have.Once you're stuck, you tend to get bored. For instance, i bet that an enviroment like japanese arcades also provides for constant novelties.Then again, i heard that a lot of people started playing Zed Blade after 10 years because someone found out some scoring tricks...

...our brains won't notice the difference, they're stuck to 10k years ago...

...Videogames are a product of high technology of the last 20 years or so, so invoking other settings is pointless...
Which is it?

Both.Please avoid cheap comments, thanks. Your survival chances won't increase if you play old games or modern technogical ones, but your mind makes exercise and is happy about this simulation.

As you said, westerners tend to be more focused on competition in games, while the Japanese are more focused on improving their own performance. Western gamers are jack of all trades, Japanese gamers are masters of one. Videogames may be a new thing, but this disparity is not.

No, Japanese have a bigger niche set of non-competitive (direct competition) players (i.e. more shmuppers). Most popular genre are fighting games, so...


and

Remember how, earlier, you were talking about how some people see things in black and white? That's exactly what you're doing now. I never said that people are completely molded by their culture. I said they are influenced by it. This is one case where you're really oversimplifying things.

Sorry, but can you stop misunderstanding what i write?I wrote

5. Cultural differences are questionable, as it is more exact to speak about which influences and in what measure are present in the single individual.

Which means, "culture" has to be defined: which culture?How many aspects (n parameters) is this culture made of?Which ones influence an individual? How much from 0-100%?

I'd say that you may want to decide though: should i oversimplify or overintellectualize things?

and i'd still say that a work fiction still has more worth than a videogame, it contains metaphor, nuances, poetic license, hidden meanings and subtexts, it allows for interpretation , deeper study and intellectual debate.

where is any of that in say raiden fighters?

You should learn to play games...metaphors?Poetic Licenses? Nice inner logic, so anything by Chomsky (or any other "serious scientist") is bullishit, lacking these elements.

stick to your utterly moronic nonsensical theories, i'll let you spout your teenage nonsensical pseudointellectual crap in peace now.

Clearly you like to to dis what you can't understand, that's why you're unworthy of any interaction. Of course, you can invoke for censorship because i don't adhere to your inner logic. Is it ok if i make a metaphor to satisfy your personal view of the world...?

Edited the various wrong tags.

[sethsez]

I'd say that you may want to decide though: should i oversimplify or overintellectualize things?

I'd say you should stop oversimplifying fundamental aspects of human nature, while at the same time stop overintellectualizing entertainment products involving little spaceships shooting aliens.

[Randorama]

I'd say that you may want to decide though: should i oversimplify or overintellectualize things?

I'd say you should stop oversimplifying fundamental aspects of human nature, while at the same time stop overintellectualizing entertainment products involving little spaceships shooting aliens.

So you're telling me that the human being who likes stupid things like spaceships is too complex to be explained by science (but not by church and poets, they seem to know better by using methapors)?