What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

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Konsolkongen
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Konsolkongen »

Fudoh wrote:If he wants perfect upscaling on DC games, he needs to use a VGA to Component to HDMI processing chain. Same thing on all monitors and TVs. Component and HDMI know 720x480, VGA just knows 640x480. The artefacts he sees is caused by the downsampling from 720 pixel width to 640 pixels.
Or use a Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler plus. That's about as perfect as it gets :)
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brownvim
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by brownvim »

Fudoh you decided on what monitor to get yet?
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Fudoh
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

Just got a Sony W6 for yoko gaming. Will likely get an Asus 279 for tate gaming soon. And right now it looks as I'll get the recently announced Dell 34" 21:9 IPS screen for my PC workstation next year.
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by brownvim »

What's yoko gaming? That new Dell looks sweet.
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Fudoh
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

tate = vertical screen orientation, yoko = horizontal screen orientation.
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SGGG2
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by SGGG2 »

Konsolkongen wrote:Or use a Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler plus. That's about as perfect as it gets :)
Agreed. The Gefen's easily the best all around scaler for Dreamcast. Combine it with an SLG3000 or Hanzo VGA box for maximum goodness. :)
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Xyga
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Xyga »

Fudoh wrote:a completely different scaling engine for the component input, choice of deinterlacing mode (field or frame)
Hey Fudoh, any particular recommendations for the PS2 in component ?

Testing now with Valkyrie Profile 2 (NTSC-U) since it offers 480i, 480p, 4:3, 16:9, highly detailed graphics ... and crazy alising.

480i 16:9
SCENE
- Game
SCREEN
- Screen Format: Full
- Auto Format: Off
- Display Area: -1
PICTURE
- Game > Original
- Color Temperature: Cool
- Sharpness: 60
- Reality Creation: Off
- Smooth Gradation: Low
- Detail Enhancer: High
- Edge Enhancer: Off
- Speed Preference: Off (frame)

480p 16:9
SCENE
- Game
SCREEN
- Screen Format: Fine - Full
- Auto Format: Off
- Display Area: -1
PICTURE
- Colour Temperature: Cool
- Sharpness: 40
- Reality Creation: Off
- Smooth Gradation: Low

What does Realty Creation do ? Fiddled a bit with it and pushing the 'Resolution' slider up gave me a clearer picture, better looking in rapid motion, but awfully coarse at the same time.
Couldn't really find a balance between 'Resolution' and 'Sharpness' so I ended up turning Reality Creation off and just keep the Sharpness at 40 (because 30 is a little bit too blurry while looking at objects in motion or in the distance).

I plan to compare with what the ABT102 can do but I'd say the W6 does quite well, especially considering how horrible VP2 should look on such a large screen.
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Fudoh
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

I plan to compare with what the ABT102 can do but I'd say the W6 does quite well
The ABT102 is way better. The W6 on it's own isn't bad though - at least not for a TV set. One nice aspect is that the deinterlacer keeps 240p effect intact, no matter if deinterlacing is en- or disabled (speed preference). With deinterlacing enabled I see some chroma problems (reds shifted a little to the right).

Reality Creation adds fuzzy pixels to suggest increased details. It's a killer for video gaming material. Really nasty in my opinion.

On a PS2 you lose a few lines with overscan set as high as -1. With non-scanlined images I would recommend normal instead. With scanlined images you have to use +1 or -1 to avoid scaling artefacts.

My review for the set will up on christmas eve.
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Xyga
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Xyga »

Well I've been spending thses pas two hours switching betwwen the two (W6 alone & ABT102's gm2) still on VP2.

It's still much too early for me to pass a judgement but - in my eyes - the W6's hanling of 480i has its advantages over the ABT102's, especially while in motion the W6 clearly has the upper hand in keeping more details visible.

As for Reality Creation it indeed looks horrible with a high so-called 'resolution' setting, but just a bit of it (around 25) feels nice and further helps with motion.
The 'Details Enhancer' is a strange thing as well, I don't know what it does but that's another thing that helps a lot.
On 'high' it may be too strong though, while 'medium' feels a little not enough.
And there's also 'sharpness' to consider. Tough.

Maybe there's a sweet spot somewhere with all those settings, I don't know and I have only really looked at VP2...

Looking forward to read your review !

------------

PS: regarding 480p;
I couldn't find really satisfying settings on the W6 alone, with sharpness at 30 it is a mixed bag of sharpness and bluriness, couldn't find a 'sweet spot' yet.
Through the VP30 it is quite blurry, and while it helps making VP2's aliasing bearable, the overall loss of details doesn't make the experience more enjoyable.

------------

PS: W6's overscan settings;
It's true that a few lines are lost but I hate black borders so much I'd rather always play like this. :mrgreen:
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Fudoh
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

PS: regarding 480p; I couldn't find really satisfying settings on the W6 alone, with sharpness at 30 it is a mixed bag of sharpness and bluriness, couldn't find a 'sweet spot' yet. Through the VP30 it is quite blurry, and while it helps making VP2's aliasing bearable, the overall loss of details doesn't make the experience more enjoyable.
If you're used to the DVDO's 480p handling, then the Sony might be tough at first. But then again the DVDO's 480p handling isn't considered great. It's considered ringing-hell. The Sony with 480p through component. Game mode, Sharpness 33, RC off, EE off and DE set to low or medium is extremely close to what great 480p upscalers like the Gefen or the Optoma can deliver. It rings a little bit, so it's not 100% up to those machines, but compared to a DVDO's 480p handling, the Sony is doing great.

I'll have another look at 480i to see what RC and the deinterlacing does on fast moving images, but the red chroma shift put me off right away. And this said, the Framemeister is better with 480i from gaming systems anyway.
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Xyga »

Fudoh wrote:Game mode, Sharpness 33, RC off, EE off and DE set to low or medium
Thanks I'll try this.
Fudoh wrote:DVDO's 480p handling isn't considered great. It's considered ringing-hell.
Yes really ugly indeed. :?
I stick to the VP30 because of the overscan/zoom/pan options that are still active and don't butcher e.g. scanlines alignement when used.
Plus the many input/output possiblities and super low lag of course.
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Fudoh
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

You're right about the W6's deinterlacing. The detail level it keeps alive in the background is quite amazing. The "base" result is a rather soft picture though, while the Framemeister outputs 480p-like results from 480i content.

RC is still too damaging though. Looks like poor sharpness controls on older TVs. 480i + real deinterlacing + increased sharpness (65 maybe) is quite ok though. Not neccessarily when you're very close to the screen, but from a normal distance, it's quite impressive. Quite close to what the DVDO does with 480p material.
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Xyga »

I think that's the best conclusion to this yes.

Sharpness up, a bit of DE and SG depending on the game and it's okay.

Still nice to know that RC is available for really bad case scenarios (like VP2).
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Fudoh
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

Did you really see any effect from the SG setting ?
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Xyga
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Xyga »

I dit but unless on high it is very subtle.

Stare at a scene and keep switching between 'high' and 'off', the difference then becomes obvious.
EDIT: at least on some textures.

EDIT2: nope wait, a better test is with stuff like a 2d background, like a sky with our without sunset but some gradation.
In Tales of the Abyss while leaving the huge pointy castle town (forgot the name) on foot, you can see the whole city/castle in the background with a big portion of sky and some clouds.
There the effect was very obvious, but 'low' looked the best. Otherwise it blurs too much.
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Fudoh »

thanks! Did you try a combination between smooth gradation and SBM (superbitmapping). In theory SBM should do the same already.
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Re: What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Post by Xyga »

Okay I've tried again with SBM on & off, couldn't notice any difference at all.

So that was walking out of Baticul in ToA where there's a big sky background with poor texture/ poorly done colour gradation.
'Medium' and 'high' settings make the gradation go from good to perfect, but there's a loss of details for instance on the clouds and the castle.

That's near the end of the game when the atmosphere is saturated with miasma.
Walking back into the city, an interesting thing is that SG affects the smog/fog effect a lot, the higher the setting, the 'thicker' the smog becomes and you lose some viewing distance (on 'high' objects silhouette in the distance disappear completely).

My guess is that SG also affects transparencies and shouldn't be used beyond 'medium'.
'Low' looked good enough for me, improving the picture without being intrusive.
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