GD: DOJ system and strat

Alske · Post by **Alske** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:28 am

So, uh, enjoy:

I was bored.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:58 am

great work, you even edited the text into the pics!
the exact differences between "basic rank" and "shot speed rank" were unknown before so this is especially appreciated

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:24 pm

Thanks again for the translation

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:23 pm

chtimi-CLA wrote:the exact differences between "basic rank" and "shot speed rank" were unknown before so this is especially appreciated

Indeed, I didn't see anything like that mentioned on this thread earlier (unless I just missed it). Is there any further info out there on how exactly both types of rank work? "Shot speed" rank, according to this, at least, seems solely affected by Hyper use...is "basic" rank based on survival time, or something else?

Alske · Post by **Alske** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:20 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
chtimi-CLA wrote:the exact differences between "basic rank" and "shot speed rank" were unknown before so this is especially appreciated
Indeed, I didn't see anything like that mentioned on this thread earlier (unless I just missed it). Is there any further info out there on how exactly both types of rank work? "Shot speed" rank, according to this, at least, seems solely affected by Hyper use...is "basic" rank based on survival time, or something else?

That's certainly what is implied. But it's never stated that they're listing all factors that go into rank. I'd imagine there's probably other articles and information out there.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:08 am

Very nice, do you guys want me to scan more pages?

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:32 am

Valgar wrote:Very nice, do you guys want me to scan more pages?

in fact i was going to ask you to.
(if Alske wants to do more of course).
ideally i would like to know as much about DOJ rank as is known about garegga rank, i'm sure some japanese resource somewhere has the marbles, i figured you or BER or maybe Icarus would know.

edit:

BulletMagnet wrote: Indeed, I didn't see anything like that mentioned on this thread earlier (unless I just missed it).

yeah you missed it, we were referring them by the terms "number of bullets" and "bullet speed" but it wasn't as clear-cut.

Alske · Post by **Alske** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:00 am

Valgar wrote:Very nice, do you guys want me to scan more pages?

Go ahead, though I can't promise how quickly I'll get to them.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:58 am

Alske - very cool post. I really wish I could read Japanese so I could read their gaming magazines.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:49 pm

if there are two different ranks, what does the simulation mode rank setting represent? probably a combination of both, it seems to increase both speed and bullet density. also it seems the game can go higher than simulation mode max rank.
for example, accessing the 2nd loop having died many times (1 or 2 lives left), the rank feels about the same as simulation max rank.

about the 4th boss variable pattern and its relation to rank, there are exceptions but the tight formation does seem to appear more often on higher rank. in simulation mode on max rank, getting to that pattern without dying it is at least 2/3 of the times the tight pattern. in arcade mode my rule of thumb so far is that if i get to the pattern with at least 4 stock ships, i get the tight pattern, with 3 it depends, and under 3 i get the loose pattern most of the time.

maco · Post by **maco** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:10 pm

I seem to remember an option in simulation mode called (I think.) Hyper Cnt that increases the Shot-Speed Rank.
I can't check at the moment.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:31 pm

maco wrote:I seem to remember an option in simulation mode called (I think.) Hyper Cnt that increases the Shot-Speed Rank.
I can't check at the moment.

You're right. Hyper cnt increases a lot bullet speed in 1-5 when it is at 15.
Let's see, i use 1 hyper in 1-1, 7+1 (fully used + aborted by a bomb) in 1-2, 4+1 in 1-3, about 4+1 in 1-4 so that's arriving in 1-5, even in the hypothesis that only fully used hypers matter a total of 16 hypers, more than the hyper-cnt max of 15. But, 1-5 the rank of cnt=15 is much higher than the 1-5 rank of my arcade runs, where the higher total hyper count is compensated by some deaths and bombs. That would coherent with the scan, something like shot speed rank = Hyper-cnt - deaths*Rd - bombs*Rb.

And what is the power up item 0-8? It seems to affect speed a bit but much less than hyper cnt. You're at full power before 8 items anyway so does that mean one should avoid picking up excess power ups? Probably not, that would be chea.. uh Raizing rank.

edit:
It follows that the simulation rank bar is the basic rank.

Also i take back my hypothesis about the rank/4th boss pattern relationship, it seems to be random after all.

LFO · Post by **LFO** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:20 am

Also, I just started watching some superplays and I would like to know what the advantage is to waiting to attack the first boss. At first I thought that maybe you could score more hits with a hyper if you waited to use it at a certain point, but I can score just as many hits usually by hypering and point blanking the boss at the start rather than waiting.

i think this has 2 reasons:

- when you destroy the bosses rotating parts while in hyper mode you do not get 2 new hypers, but only stars...
- when you do not wait a while the bosses core will not last the wohle duration of your hyper, and you will kill it too early. in a way i do not know waiting before attacking the boss increases the bosses durability and you can shoot the core almost the entire duration of the hyper. when it vanishes you destroy the side parts, get 2 fresh hypers and destroy the core. because the boss takes longer this way you have to dodge all attacks twice, and the second "gattling gun attack" fires 4 times not 3!

i just started again with playind doj after 2 years. thanks for the info in this thread!

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:41 pm

LFO wrote: i think this has 2 reasons:

- when you destroy the bosses rotating parts while in hyper mode you do not get 2 new hypers, but only stars...
- when you do not wait a while the bosses core will not last the wohle duration of your hyper, and you will kill it too early. in a way i do not know waiting before attacking the boss increases the bosses durability and you can shoot the core almost the entire duration of the hyper. when it vanishes you destroy the side parts, get 2 fresh hypers and destroy the core. because the boss takes longer this way you have to dodge all attacks twice, and the second "gattling gun attack" fires 4 times not 3!

i just started again with playind doj after 2 years. thanks for the info in this thread!

that's right, i think i aleardy posted something about it earlier. waiting is also a way of controlling what attack you get during the hyper, ie you don't want to get the attack you fear the most while the rank is high.

in a way i do not know waiting before attacking the boss increases the bosses durability and you can shoot the core almost the entire duration of the hyper.

it doesn't increase durability per se, rather when parts rotate they absorb the hyper's main beam (not the aura) unless you point-blank the core.

LFO · Post by **LFO** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:11 am

sorry if i posted redundant information, i thought it wasn't written anywhere.

do you know the requirements for getting 2 hypers from the 1st boss? at first i thought this has something to do with hyper use, then with hit count, but this thoughts are obviously wrong...

p.s.: i somehow have the impression that the hyper weakens the power of your laser a little bit. what do you think of that?

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:07 am

You get 2 hypers from the stage 1 boss by destroying one of the two gun turrets while they are spinning round the boss.

I thought the delay in attacking the boss at the start was to help with the timing of killing the turrets at the correct time, I could be wrong though.

LFO · Post by **LFO** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:37 am

lol, it's that easy?? so it's like the stars in ddp...
sometimes i'm thinking way to complicated i suppose... ^^

the waiting is surely connected to the duration of the hyper i think, because of the fact that you receive nothing while killing the turrets while the hyper is active.

chtimi-CLA could be right that waiting does not increase the bosses durability, but helps in distributing the power of your beam to the bosses parts more equally, so making him stay longer.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:30 pm

LFO wrote: chtimi-CLA could be right that waiting does not increase the bosses durability, but helps in distributing the power of your beam to the bosses parts more equally, so making him stay longer.

yes, that is very noticeable in 2-1 when you try to kill the boss as fast as possible with 0 stock life, 1 bomb, and 1 hyper.
also i can't find the exact data, but one hyper increases you power by 20-30% then 15-20% for each additional hyper. for example in 1-2 if you use 3 hypers on the mid boss you kill it too fast and break your combo.

stratos · Post by **stratos** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:13 am

Recently spending much time on this game... learning to chain on the first three levels, with some good satisfactions on the first two...

But, I've heard rumors by Shuppon (great player he is...) on the score thread and other DOJ fans like Triple Lei and BER, that the easy ship to get to the second loop is B-Exy.

So, I'd like you all expressed youre toughts about the ships in general, on what are the best survival choices or the chaining ones...

I personally choose the A-Leinyan setting, since I like fast speed (useful to chain enemies at long distances) and the large bomb stock: useful choice to both scoring and surviving.

Now, what do YOU think?

See you soon (I hope to join also the score thread

)

tiktak · Post by **tiktak** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:36 am

type-b : hit-box seems like Espgaluda
type-a: hit-box seems like Silpheed
hehehehe

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:42 pm

hi stratos!

i think it's all about which you use the most. after playing with A-Ex so much, i find it hard using anything else. but yes, other ships will provide more bombs (helful for later bosses, and survival), etc. but then the B-type ship has a wider shot, so easier in some ways to chain the smaller enemies. but it is much slower. so for certain points, the timing to continue a chain can feel very severe, as you cannot move as quick as you would like to. also, bosses feel more difficult to me with B-type, because you have less time to dodge bullets. so all things must be considered!

my advice would be to settle with the A-L ship if that is your favourite. it will have certain plus points, and certain bad points. but learning dodonpachi will be much harder if you keep changing which ship to use.

and goodluck

stratos · Post by **stratos** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:12 pm

Thanks!

I hope also Chtimi, BER and Triple lei will join the discussion... I accord with you that the choice is personal, but I'd like to know all the specific characteristics of all the ships, like bomb stocks and power up reduction after death... since somthing it's clear about it, someother not... and also the other player personal toughts about ship selection.

P.s.: forgive me for the bad English, I'm Italian

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:50 am

stratos wrote:I'd like to know all the specific characteristics of all the ships, like bomb stocks and power up reduction after death

Bomb stocks:
-exy starts with max stock=1 and can get to 2
-leynian starts with max stock=2 and can get to 4
-shotia starts with max stock=3 and can get to 6
Your max stock increases by 1 on death, except if that death occurred while in hyper.

Power reduction after death:
You have two distinct power levels, one for the shot and one for the laser. They both increase by one when you pick a power up. When you die, not-reinforced weapons drop to the initial power level, reinforced weapons drop only by one level.
On death:
-shotia is shot-reinforced, so shot drops by one and laser drops to initial level
-leynian is laser-reinforced, so laser drops by one and shot drops to initial level
-exy is shot- and laser-reinforced, so shot and laser drop by one

Other differences:
-Ships that are not laser-reinforced (ie. shotia) will slow to crawl when lasering, terrible if you want to combo
-Laser-reinforced ships have a bigger laser aura around them, protecting their sides further. This aura is also more powerful, it can really hurt a lot to point-blank enemies or even bosses. You're absolutely safe from zako coming from the sides with the reinforced aura, very useful in stage 4 to kill the tanks on rail platforms coming from behind.

More general thoughts about ship selection:

-The problem with A-laser is the shot (obviously). It is so thin even on max power you will need perfect placement to combo anything on shot sequences. Even for survival, imagine dying at the bee hive section of stage 5 and having to make it with base level shot, you will end up using all those extra bombs you get from choosing laser above exy.

-A shot is a powerhouse for survival on levels, it is fast while shooting so you can bullet-herd easily. The laser is not so good on bosses but you can bomb your way through them.

-A exy is my favourite, it can dash around the screen while shooting or even lasering, very powerful and shot not too wide, for good combo control.

-B shot is also excellent for pure surviving, the powered shot is almost batsugun like. See A-shot (slow as hell while lasering though). It must be hell to try and combo with it.

-B laser is good. You have some bombs, the laser is not bad, and the shot is about as wide as a shot-reinforced A ship, good for comboing. I don't use it because it's too slow for my tastes, i prefer dashing around the screen. I tried this ship and had a hard time in stage 5.

-B exy is very powerful, the only problems are the speed (slower than a A ship) and the fact you have to be careful to control you shot if you're trying to combo, because the shot is so wide and can take out too many zako at a time. If i didn't use A-exy i would probably pick this one, the destruction of the shot is very satsifying.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:06 am

I think you mean

Bomb stocks:
-exy starts with max stock=1 and can get to 2
-leynian starts with max stock=2 and can get to 4
-shotia starts with max stock=3 and can get to 6

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:15 am

thanks NTSC-J, i also added specific ship discussion

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:59 pm

No problem.

I'll add another vote for A-exy. She's great on all levels. The only reason most don't pick her is the low number of bombs, but considering how much easier it is to combo with her, the hypers should come readily enough. Probably my favorite ship in all of shooters, sometimes I wish she were in every game. Once you go exy you never go back!

stratos · Post by **stratos** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:02 pm

Yes, my preferred choice woul'd be B-Exy, but I find the shot too powerful to control my combo. Probably, if I learn to control Exy powered shot, I'll find life easier in the later levels... the fact is that I can't manage to get to level 4 boss yet, if I try also to score throuhg the first levels, so for the first part of the game Laser choice is good. However, in stage 4 Exy shoul'd be great... I'll probably try some plays with her one more time.

Speaking of bombs, it's not really a problem for me: I can't often press the B button in time to save my life

so I use a few of them in some key spot (I.e.: third boss last pattern).

Another question: I didn't catch the function of "MAXIMUM"... at the start of the thread you say that it makes your score go up by a little amount every second, but it seems not true to me... Probably I hadn't understood well.

And thanks to all for the precious info

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:14 pm

stratos wrote:Another question: I didn't catch the function of "MAXIMUM"... at the start of the thread you say that it makes your score go up by a little amount every second, but it seems not true to me...

Trust us, it's true: that bonus was introduced in the "original" DoDonPachi, and worked pretty much the same way. Basically, the game rewards you if you're able to survive without bombing: if you have one bomb used up and collect a bomb icon to fill up your stock, "Maximum x 1" will appear there and your score will automatically increase gradually, until you either bomb or die. If you collect a bomb when your stock is already full, it'll be "Maximum x 2" and your score will increase even faster: survive long enough to collect another bomb aftert that and it'll be "Maximum x 3," and so on.

Perhaps it appeared to not work because the first extra bomb you collect is right before the second boss: during boss fights, the automatic increase stops, it only happens during the "regular" parts of each stage.

stratos · Post by **stratos** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:39 pm

Perhaps it appeared to not work because the first extra bomb you collect is right before the second boss: during boss fights, the automatic increase stops, it only happens during the "regular" parts of each stage.

Ah, it was probably this issue

Thanks.

My new score: 65.xxx.xx0. I'll post on the scoreboard only if I manage to obtain something under the 100 millions range, with a convalidating photo. Hope to join you guys there soon

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:08 am

Flipped through the latest Arcadia and saw a score for Black Label with the A-ship (dunno what type) at 3,5 billion. Fuck! I wonder how much further this game can be pushed.