Mushi Futari BL Japanese vs International "Another Ver"

[Dave_K.]

Generally speaking I disagree with conversions of games because you're destroying original artifacts, but the idea of converting 1.5s to BLs is even more heinous since you'd be destroying an incredible game to make a lesser one.

I'd agree if you were talking about Ibara Kuro, but I digress...

[Skykid]

Generally speaking I disagree with conversions of games because you're destroying original artifacts, but the idea of converting 1.5s to BLs is even more heinous since you'd be destroying an incredible game to make a lesser one.

I'd agree if you were talking about Ibara Kuro, but I digress...

Never played Kuro, remember hearing mixed things from owners about it.

But I don't think anyone actually thinks MFBL is superior to 1.5 - you just have those people who enjoy the incredible ease of its Original mode to the point of preference, or guys who want the scarcest PCB on the block.

I'm yet to encounter those who favour MFBL primarily for its scoring game, but I'm willing to entertain an argument for God Mode as a superior expert option - but there are precious few who can actually make a dent in it.

[monouchi]

But I don't think anyone actually thinks MFBL is superior to 1.5 - you just have those people who enjoy the incredible ease of its Original mode to the point of preference, or guys who want the scarcest PCB on the block.

In my opinion MFBL is superior to 1.5, but that is just a personal opinion.
Like the Top 25 shmups of all time.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

IKD himself said he thinks MF BL is their best game.

[Bananamatic]

BL original is harder and more complicated for scoring than 1.5 original by far
ultra is way more fun IMO as far as survival challenge goes but ultra vs god for score is subjective as they are completely different

maniac feels kinda redundant in both versions when you have God with deeper mechanics, more bullets while still maintaining reasonable difficulty

[Skykid]

IKD himself said he thinks MF BL is their best game.

That's one of the most incredible and simultaneously incredibly disappointing things I've ever heard.

It's like he doesn't know his own games.

[Bananamatic]

black labels except for dojbl were always easier for simple survival with more "extreme" scoring
unless you really like your shmups easy or planning to score big time, the regular version will most likely end up being more fun

[Dave_K.]

you just have those people who enjoy the incredible ease of its Original mode to the point of preference, or guys who want the scarcest PCB on the block.

Same with DOJBL preference over DOJWL.

black labels except for dojbl were always easier for simple survival with more "extreme" scoring
unless you really like your shmups easy or planning to score big time, the regular version will most likely end up being more fun

I think the same still holds true for DOJBL, as the first loop is eaiser than DOJWL. Second loop is more difficult, but with the hyper change kinda evens it out with WL. Not that I'm even that good to really tell for any of these...I'm not gunning for world record scores.

[Bananamatic]

i thought DOJBL was confirmed to be easier than WL in every way possible
the rank in BL only goes out of control if you hit 2-5 without a single death and it only kicks in during a hyper, if you die once everything turns easy again

it was more of a rebalance that gave us nothing new, more like doj 1.5

[Skykid]

you just have those people who enjoy the incredible ease of its Original mode to the point of preference, or guys who want the scarcest PCB on the block.

Same with DOJBL preference over DOJWL.

Are you aware how great to difference is between the two comparisons?

DOJ BL isn't anywhere near the difficulty step down between the Futaris. Loop one is easier, but it's more a refined margin rather than a gulf. Futari BL original conversely is one of the easiest Cave shmups for survival.

The reason for my aforementioned comments is I regularly see the virtues of FBL being proclaimed but rarely for its scoring - because scoring well in the game is hard. Generally it's a simple case of "my favourite" that appears to be made on the basis of 'I can make progress in this one'.

For both scoring and survival as an intertwined balance, I think 1.5 comfortably takes the podium, bolstered by the more engaging urgency of shot switching. And I agree Maniac in both iterations is redundant.

IKD's comment/opinion - assuming it's true - is nonsense regardless. And if I ever met him I'd tell him so.

[jepjepjep]

BL original is harder and more complicated for scoring than 1.5 original

What makes BL original harder than 1.5 for scoring, is it only the way they made bombing punish your score, or is there more to it? I play with Reco and the homing options in BL and extra damage make it seem much easier.

[Bananamatic]

BL original for scoring might just be harder than ultra

game goes absolutely crazy at 100k counter which happens somewhere in early st3 and the reward for point blanking stuff is much higher (and it's extremely dangerous)

there was a streamer on ustream with WR tier play recently, it makes God look like a little bitch in terms of difficulty

[pokemon123]

I always thought ikeda liked dodonpachi the best?

I prefer 1.5 so far but i've barely played black label so can't make much of a comment.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

You have to get a lot closer to the enemies in any mode on Black Label. Makes for a more interesting score game. The rank also goes up a lot faster in Black Label Original if you play well since you can max it in Stage 3 unlike in Stage 5 of 1.5, and even then I think it's only the end of the stage for stage 5 and the fight against Larsa's dragon.

Maniac has better mechanics in BL with the chaining and removes the stage 2 boss milk that was added in 1.5, and you carry multiplier between stages unlike 1.5. However, God Mode exists, so if you want to play this mode, it may be better to play it on 1.5.

Ultra's definitely the harder survival challenge, but most people can't hope to approach it, so God is a much more playable alternative.



I don't get why you'd convert from 1.5 to BL either. Just get a 360 and the port and have both. Converting to 1.0 could be interesting because that version was never ported(what exactly is different between 1.0 and 1.01 anyway?), but it'd still require you to have the expensive PCB.

[Bananamatic]

anyone who wants to convert to 1.0 should be executed by a firing squad

1.0 is absolutely unplayable

[Dave_K.]

you just have those people who enjoy the incredible ease of its Original mode to the point of preference, or guys who want the scarcest PCB on the block.

Same with DOJBL preference over DOJWL.

Are you aware how great to difference is between the two comparisons?

Honestly I don't, and I know you have a great deal more experience with DOJ, so I'll defer to your judgement here.

[Erppo]

Let's ignore God and how it's easily the most interesting Futari mode out there.

[Skykid]

Let's ignore God and how it's easily the most interesting Futari mode out there.

God mode is by far the best thing about MFBL IMO. But again, the number of people who actually play that mode versus the number of people who claim it's the best game ever based on Original is so miniscule it barely registers.

The last time I remember anyone properly giving God mode its dues was Gaijinpunch and EOJ around the time of the PCB release in Japan. Ages ago, in other words.

[Erppo]

The last time I remember anyone properly giving God mode its dues was Gaijinpunch and EOJ around the time of the PCB release in Japan. Ages ago, in other words.

What? The most recent page of the Futari thread has several God scores, pretty decent ones too.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Not to mention you're obviously forgetting Gus when he played it and iconoclast.

I should get back to the mode and clear it sometime, though I'll need to relearn it. I know my PB was a bit over 2 billion(would have to check), which is definitely not that good, but I'll need to relearn things before I can beat that.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

God mode is by far the best thing about MFBL IMO. But again, the number of people who actually play that mode versus the number of people who claim it's the best game ever based on Original is so miniscule it barely registers.

I have started getting into God Mode and it is pretty awesome. The chaining works even better than Maniac due to how you get a per hit chain boost when the counter is 10000 plus.

I still prefer 1.5 but Black Label scoring is hella fun too. I think what I like about 1.5 is the greater variety of shot types. Also, Palm Normal's rapid shot seems to be better in terms of damage spread than Palm BL. :/

anyone who wants to convert to 1.0 should be executed by a firing squad

1.0 is absolutely unplayable

Agreed. It's amusing occasionally for the challenge (if you got it for cheap like on the Xbox 360) but it's really unbalanced and not fun for scoring. 1.5 was like a totally new game.

[jepjepjep]

BL original for scoring might just be harder than ultra

game goes absolutely crazy at 100k counter

Wow, I had no idea. I watched the dvd replay and it reminds me of that rob review where he talks about playing t-ball vs. playing home run derby.

[Shepardus]

BL original for scoring might just be harder than ultra

game goes absolutely crazy at 100k counter

Wow, I had no idea. I watched the dvd replay and it reminds me of that rob review where he talks about playing t-ball vs. playing home run derby.

Reminds me of Crimzon Clover Boost vs. Unlimited, the patterns are less dense but they get insanely fast if you're playing for score.

[Skykid]

The last time I remember anyone properly giving God mode its dues was Gaijinpunch and EOJ around the time of the PCB release in Japan. Ages ago, in other words.

What? The most recent page of the Futari thread has several God scores, pretty decent ones too.

I'm not talking about high scores, I'm talking about word of mouth. Nearly all the FBL super love comes from a camp who only have eyes for Original.

[ninn]

That version makes me really angry.

I have no comparison to the Vanilla Black label, but I know 1.5.
I mainly play maniac.
So, please correct me If I get something wrong.

so, lets talk Another Version:
The fact that the bosses die when looking at them twice, is one thing. I kinda expected that.

But, what I did not expect was that the larger instage-enemies, that are not End- or mid-bosses, also die quicker.

in particular

• The Iceicles with the jellyfish in Stage 2.
• The flying stingrays at the end of Stage2, that reflect their bullets from the edge of the screen back up
  
• The Ant-Hills in Stage 3.
  
• The Laterns in Stage 3.
  
• In Stage 3, The dung beetles, that shoot more and more narrow streams, with fire balls that you have to dive right thru.
  
  
• In Stage 3, The flying mantis, that throws fire balls at you, that become rings of bullets when fired at them.
• In Stage 4, the Grasshoppers and their millipedes.
  
  

[Screenshots from Vanilla BL, just so you know what things or beetles I am talking about.]



What is wrong with those bugs, you may ask?

Well: Those enemies die so quick, and cancel all bullets - well before their stream of bullets is even a threat to the player. They pop like popcorn, and they cancel bullets.

No fu*** need to dive thru their pattern at all!! just position Reco (or Palm) below the big beetles, turn off your brain and shoot. The Bullets won't reach you. No need to dodge.



I did a quick comparison - how does it feel - to Futari 1.5 yesterday, and I was pretty shocked to find out, that Futari 1.5 Original Mode feels harder than Another Version Maniac Mode.

Is this because in Black label, the Enemies are generally easier to kill, or is this because AnotherVersion prefers to throw cotton balls instead of real enemies at you?

Am I the only one who noticed that? Because, I can not find anything about that here...



And to be completely honest here:
I can not believe that GOD has not been nerfed too. The endbosses die so quickly, I can not believe that this is GOD-Mode like it was intended to be. I think, god mode has been nerfed just like the other modes, in exactly the same places.



Can someone please tell me, if my observations of AnotherVersion are wrong, or is blacklabel indeed is so much less danger to play than 1.5?

ninn,

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Can someone please tell me, if my observations of AnotherVersion are wrong, or is blacklabel indeed is so much less danger to play than 1.5?

None of your complaints are specific to Another Ver. The only thing changed were bosses are slightly easier. Essentially, all of your observations boil down to one thing - the shot types in BL are really, really strong. Reco is arguably one of the strongest shot types in any shmup, possessing insane damage, spread, lock-on capabilities, etc.

If you want a simple 1CC, Black Label is generally easier than 1.5 because of the shot type strength. The challenge that makes it much tougher than 1.5 is if you play for score. The pointblank gem shedding mechanic in BL Original is much harder to take advantage of, and is crucial to scoring. In addition, rank in BL Original gets incredibly nasty every time you max out the stage counter (and doing so is crucial to scoring for the large pointblank gems).

You can speedkill all of that stuff in 1.5 as well (the icicles, manta rays, st3 lanterns) before they have a lot of bullets onscreen, it's a matter of learning to hold your fire for a few seconds. The grasshoppers in stage 4 are always very weak regardless of version - kill them too fast and the worm enemy won't appear afterwards.

Maniac BL is generally considered to be easier than 1.5 due to the strength and coverage of shot types.

[ninn]

Ah, ok - thanks for the info!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Other thing I should mention - bombing absolutely murders your gem counter in BL Original. If you bomb in 1.5 it doesn't hurt your scoring much, but bombing in BL will destroy your score in a stage. You have to basically reach Larsa without bombing. BL Maniac and God are a bit more forgiving of bombs because the counter can be quickly maxed again. Survival is a lot easier than 1.5 if you bomb frequently, but scoring well is much trickier than 1.5 - it's got a higher skill ceiling.

[Bananamatic]

i thought the stage counter maxes really fast in BL original if you point blank and stuff
and i think the big counter does nothing except for rank and showing whether to use shot or laser

[CloudyMusic]

i thought the stage counter maxes really fast in BL original if you point blank and stuff
and i think the big counter does nothing except for rank and showing whether to use shot or laser

At the very least, at 100k, things start releasing many more gems, so reaching that point is important for good scores. I'm not sure if there's a similar gradual effect before that point, though. (The 100k breakpoint also causes bullet speeds to instantly jump to something like 1.5x-2x of what they already were, which is pretty messed up.)

And IIRC, the stage counter is what's hurt most by bombing in BL Original, so if I'm remembering right, while it still hurts your overall counter, it's not as big of a deal to bomb on a stage boss if you have to. Bombing in the middle of a stage will nuke your stage counter down to like ~2000-3000 or something, though, forcing you to build it all the way back up in order to be able to shed large gems again.