IOS Is a terrible shmup platform. (Small Rant)

[Tokyo-J]

I do not consider myself casual as Shmups are pretty much the only games I play.

Today alone I have spent time with 1 cred each

Espgaluda
Under Defeat
Gunbird 2
Psyvariar 2 which I just 1CC

I am stating I hate IOS and if Android and Iphone are the only systems receiving ports I will not be supporting them anymore. I would buy the IOS games to support 360 development but if it 360 development stops so do I as a customer.

[Udderdude]

[Kollision]

I am stating I hate IOS and if Android and Iphone are the only systems receiving ports I will not be supporting them anymore. I would buy the IOS games to support 360 development but if it 360 development stops so do I as a customer.

Amen, brother.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Playing shmups only leads to sadness and disappointment, just talking about them is safer, and more fun to boot! Or just riling up the forum on a near daily basis with little tact or subtlety.

I used to be quite bad at that at one point, usually now when I'm in Chat im playing shooters. I used to be a bit of a nob with the Touhou crap, now I dont mind and just make the odd joke, there's no harm ment by it. But if it annoys you I will stop it.

damn I want to address more of this thread but I have to dash

[Tokyo-J]

Playing Espgaluda 2 makes me happy. As long as it is with a Arcade Stick. Touch controls make me sad

[TrevHead (TVR)]

The way I see it is that been a bit elitist is fine, its a competative genre after all. Just don't a be too much of a dick about it. Most of us here are still challenging ourselves (even Planky), it's just that we are all at different ability levels. Its not as if we are just half assed players who creditfeed 50 times just to see the ending credits.

Again with this "natural ability" bullshit. Listen man, I used to be just like you. I was spending all this time mulling over these "1ccs" of easy games while not giving a fuck about scoring but then one day when I was watching a few Youtube vids and reading a few posts I suddenly realized something. I was absolute bottom of the barrel trash and all that time I was spending trying to rack up as many cheesy, easy 1ccs as I could would be much better spent just getting good at 1 game. So I read Prom's guide and developed a practice routine I'd follow religiously and picked a game I loved to focus on (Futari God mode) and my skills improved dramatically. The fact is I'm not special. The reason shmups forum sucks at shmups isn't a lack of "ability", it's a lack of interest.

Maybe If us average players

Another thing I hate. If you've been playing for 3 years with no notable scores and are still in that "cheesy, easy 1cc" mindset you're below average.

played nothing but 1 shmup we would be at a high level. But that would the death nail for CAVE, Grev etc.

This much makes no sense whatsoever. Cave isn't gonna go out of a business if an overseas suddenly decides to learn to play.

First sorry for calling you a cunt, no hard feelings mate

Looking at my post I think I was using hyperbole as a counter arguement. I don't mean that I would have to play just one shmup forever just to get good. Intrest goes a long way when it comes to overcoming anything challenging. That said i'm not good enough to play at a high level. I get a buzz just trying to get a 1CC which I find a big enough challenge in itself (I get bad nerves in 1CC runs). Take Futari Original I have memorised most of the game and once I get that 1CC I could continue playing for score, however...

Since i'm rather late in getting a 360, i've plenty of other 360 games to play, so I have to draw the line somewhere as my backlog is getting bigger and i'm asking myself why do I continue buying new STGs as playing them takes me away from mastering one or two games to a higher level. I think a few others asking for better novice modes in CAVE games feel the same way.

I like STGT because it allows everybody to forget about the 1CC and just play for score.

PLS understand that when i'm talking about casual players of this forum I also mean lower ability players too, no one wants CAVE to make shitty games just ones that have better difficulty scaling.

[Marc]

You all don't think all this gus bashing is getting a bit old? Why don't you all move on and play shmups for once.

So is his trolling. He knocks that off and nobody will need to comment, deal?

[Giest118]

You all don't think all this gus bashing is getting a bit old? Why don't you all move on and play shmups for once.

So is his trolling. He knocks that off and nobody will need to comment, deal?

It's actually pretty easy to ignore him. Like, really easy. Easier than DDPDOJ in no bullets mode, even.

[Ed Oscuro]

SNK are a primary example of a company who failed to adapt, they could put out lots of lo-res 2d NeoGeo fighters, but made a few attempts to do 3D, failed, then gave up. Eventually they were left trying to flog products nobody wanted because they were seen as so ancient. Capcom on the other hand managed to develop their 3D business at the same time and then successfully brought their IP to the 3D world (see the recent Street Fighters, which play like classic 2D games but in very flashy 3D)

Just picking nits here, but SNK's latest stuff indeed was ancient - even incompetently done, on both the 2D and especially the 3D sides. I haven't played Metal Slug 3D, but would you? Historically speaking, it'd have been hard for them to turn around and catch up with Capcom which has been working on 3D for a long while - SNK was in the midst of flogging the latest King of Fighters series like it was Madden at the time Capcom was releasing the original Resident Evil games. Capcom quickly advanced the state of the art while we got Metal Slug on the GBA and Metal Slug on a higher-res screen (with the same tiny sprites as before...wait, that's Dolphin Blue...you gotta give it to the Nazca team members for being persistent!). Despite the "high resolution backgrounds" offered by the Atomiswave, the last 2D Slugs on that system weren't a patch visually on the classic ones. That said, Capcom's not been completely successful in bringing their games to the 3D world - see your favorite SFvT video for proof of that

Anyway, there's a bunch of stuff in this thread I don't wanna touch. mesh control, don't sit on the pot too long, it's bad for you.

[Despatche]

capcom quickly advanced the state of the art alongside snk only to give up with them, yet snk still tries. msxx is good, kofxiii is good, kofmi is good... the capcom you speak of is dead, so they have nothing to consider. i don't even know what they're supposed to be now.

[Gus]

Playing shmups only leads to sadness and disappointment, just talking about them is safer, and more fun to boot! Or just riling up the forum on a near daily basis with little tact or subtlety.

I'm actually gonna start doing full runs in Espgaluda II again tomorrow. It's been a really long and hard road studying and practicing those advanced strategies and I guess it showed in my posts.

I do not consider myself casual as Shmups are pretty much the only games I play.

Today alone I have spent time with 1 cred each

Espgaluda
Under Defeat
Gunbird 2
Psyvariar 2 which I just 1CC

>deny being a casual
>say you're casually playing 4 games right now

Why the fuck do I keep coming here.

Looking at my post I think I was using hyperbole as a counter arguement. I don't mean that I would have to play just one shmup forever just to get good. Intrest goes a long way when it comes to overcoming anything challenging. That said i'm not good enough to play at a high level. I get a buzz just trying to get a 1CC which I find a big enough challenge in itself (I get bad nerves in 1CC runs). Take Futari Original I have memorised most of the game and once I get that 1CC I could continue playing for score, however...

Like I said, the only reason you're not good enough is because you're not trying to challenge yourself enough. Yeah, I used to think that I would someday build my skills up if I focused exclusively on those easy 1ccs and I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work that way. If you want to get better you need to push yourself, like studying a variety of high level replays and putting in all the little tricks and optimizations you can pull off into your runs, even if your consistency is horrible. Or you could just do what I did and jump straight to a harder difficulty. When you do that suddenly the shit you used to think was hard suddenly won't seem so bad anymore. Believe me, players of all skill levels deal with challenges often much worse than casuals deal with. Just look at that log of Prom's runs from back in 2008 and you'll see him playing the game for several hours almost every day for 5 months and yeah, he had loads of shitruns before he got that 488m run.

Since i'm rather late in getting a 360, i've plenty of other 360 games to play, so I have to draw the line somewhere as my backlog is getting bigger and i'm asking myself why do I continue buying new STGs as playing them takes me away from mastering one or two games to a higher level. I think a few others asking for better novice modes in CAVE games feel the same way.

And I hate this idea of having a "backlog". To me that implies that games are just to be started and finished within a set period of time like a movie and I couldn't disagree more. Rather than keep up with all the new releases I have always gotten most of my enjoyment from playing the same games for months, if not years. I say just play whatever the fuck you want without stressing out over some backlog.

I like STGT because it allows everybody to forget about the 1CC and just play for score.

I actually think that STGT is kind of a bad idea as it reinforces this "game a week" mentality which I think is the main reason why westerners aren't coming close to any world records. Like I keep saying, great scores take time and I don't see why people care what can be done in a time period as short as week. There's nothing to be ashamed if it takes you several months to beat a score somebody else got in week. I mean, who was the first world record holder for DOJBL? All anyone knows about are HFD's masterful runs and rightfully so. Or to use a more relevant example a lot of people don't realize that before I even registered here I had already spent the last 6 months grinding away at nothing but Futari. No "natural ability" there.

PLS understand that when i'm talking about casual players of this forum I also mean lower ability players too, no one wants CAVE to make shitty games just ones that have better difficulty scaling.

Kind of straying off-topic here but I actually think Cave games have some of the best difficulty scaling out there. Back when I first booted up Dodonpachi in MAME 2 years ago the thing I liked was how in that first stage even though you had plenty of bullets coming your way compared to most older games it was still easy even for a first time player. The point where they stop holding your hand is pretty clear, yeah but it gives you something to work towards and I think it's just the right difficulty where it's not hard at all to overcome if you're willing to put in a little practice.

[trap15]

Like I said, the only reason you're not good enough is because you're not trying to challenge yourself enough. Yeah, I used to think that I would someday build my skills up if I focused exclusively on those easy 1ccs and I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work that way. If you want to get better you need to push yourself, like studying a variety of high level replays and putting in all the little tricks and optimizations you can pull off into your runs, even if your consistency is horrible. Or you could just do what I did and jump straight to a harder difficulty. When you do that suddenly the shit you used to think was hard suddenly won't seem so bad anymore.

This, one million times over.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I actually think that STGT is kind of a bad idea as it reinforces this "game a week" mentality which I think is the main reason why westerners aren't coming close to any world records. Like I keep saying, great scores take time and I don't see why people care what can be done in a time period as short as week. There's nothing to be ashamed if it takes you several months to beat a score somebody else got in week. I mean, who was the first world record holder for DOJBL? All anyone knows about are HFD's masterful runs and rightfully so. Or to use a more relevant example a lot of people don't realize that before I even registered here I had already spent the last 6 months grinding away at nothing but Futari. No "natural ability" there.

But thats the thing Gus, and the point i'm getting at in this shitty thread. I and most others you call casuals are happy how they play atm, if I want to play for score it won't be because you demand I do so. If anything it'll be the quality of your scores but the way you talk to ppl negates any of that.

Since someone wants to talk on topic i'll shut up now

[Gus]

Well if you ever feel like getting good you should look up Prom's guide as he expands on my points a lot better than I ever could. It just needed to be said that if you want to get good you need both time and proper practice methods, not just one or the other and things like natural ability are pretty much a non-factor in the long run.

/thread hijack

[Despatche]

the concept of stgt is legit and noble; the purpose is to get people of various skill levels together, to play and talk about games casually. any mindset reinforcing is coming from one's self.

i think some of these recent topics should just be merged into one large topic called "state of the genre, state of the forums". you'd think that'd be the whole point of "shmups chat", but no.

[Tokyo-J]

I was not playing those games casually.

I have a rule. 1 Credit and quit. I do not credit feed and I do not stay on a shmup past 1 cred.

I give it my best and move on. And I try to play games that are different in scoring system and graphics wise. Staying on nothing but Cave games is weak. You have to broaden your horizons otherwise it becomes stale.

I do not need to post my scores or pics of 1CC to know I am hardcore. I know I am hardcore as I have played every shmup this planet has to offer almost and have been successful at doing so.

People who brag crave attention. I only need to prove to myself how good I am. And I do that everyday I turn on one of my many Arcade machines and pop in a game.

[IseeThings]

SNK are a primary example of a company who failed to adapt, they could put out lots of lo-res 2d NeoGeo fighters, but made a few attempts to do 3D, failed, then gave up. Eventually they were left trying to flog products nobody wanted because they were seen as so ancient. Capcom on the other hand managed to develop their 3D business at the same time and then successfully brought their IP to the 3D world (see the recent Street Fighters, which play like classic 2D games but in very flashy 3D)

Just picking nits here, but SNK's latest stuff indeed was ancient - even incompetently done, on both the 2D and especially the 3D sides. I haven't played Metal Slug 3D, but would you? Historically speaking, it'd have been hard for them to turn around and catch up with Capcom which has been working on 3D for a long while - SNK was in the midst of flogging the latest King of Fighters series like it was Madden at the time Capcom was releasing the original Resident Evil games. Capcom quickly advanced the state of the art while we got Metal Slug on the GBA and Metal Slug on a higher-res screen (with the same tiny sprites as before...wait, that's Dolphin Blue...you gotta give it to the Nazca team members for being persistent!). Despite the "high resolution backgrounds" offered by the Atomiswave, the last 2D Slugs on that system weren't a patch visually on the classic ones. That said, Capcom's not been completely successful in bringing their games to the 3D world - see your favorite SFvT video for proof of that

Anyway, there's a bunch of stuff in this thread I don't wanna touch. mesh control, don't sit on the pot too long, it's bad for you.

Let's look at the arcade side of things.

Well SNK ventured onto their Hyper NeoGeo 3D Platform for a few games and gave up.

Capcom were always looking at new platforms, they licensed out their IP to Arika for the Street Fighter EX games, which gave them a headstart even if they didn't really seem to believe in the tech at the time (it was PSX based) and while there might have been a few other missteps (Final Fight Revenge from the US division) However Capcom were always looking to move to platforms produced by somebody else rather than depending on their own, slowly phasing out CPS2/CPS3 while experimenting with Sega's ST-V hardware, and even their System 32 at one point and they quickly started pushing and embracing the Naomi platform once it came along. Ignore the failure of the DC in the home market because that was a massively successful arcade platform. This gave Capcom and the developers the experience needed going forward to work with more modern platforms in both the home and arcade market, it also mean they no longer had the expense of producing their own hardware.

SNK did none of this, they'd gone bankrupt and had their IP shit all over and become Playmore before there was even much activity on the Atomiswave front, which was just a watered down Naomi at a time when Naomi was starting to look dated.

After the initial failure of the HN3D platform SNK reverted almost entirely to doing arcade titles on their ancient 2D NeoGeo HW (which in many ways wasn't even state of the art at the time) rather than looking at more recent, more powerful 2D or 3D systems. They had their hardcore fanbase, ranting at the 'f**king casuals' in the genre who didn't want to learn all the combos, all the counters, all the everything else for each character in every game but just wanted to have fun. The same group of people are the ones who basically slated the attempts to do 3D because the games weren't quite so finely tuned and didn't behave exactly like the previous games in the series' on the first outing etc. Such a small fanbase, combined with minimal effort ports to the consoles which were starting to receive more average reviews in mainstream press because they seemed like 'old' games but had annoying loading, slowdown etc. simply wasn't enough to keep SNK afloat. SNK also made the mistake of overestimating their own worth in the handheld / portable market, throwing out the NGP / NGPC to compete with Nintendo's offerings when really their IP had nowhere near enough mainstream appeal outside that small fanbase.

Capcom is still a recognized brand today, by mainstream audiences.

SNK Playmore is ... ?

The similarities between SNK / Cave are staggering.

[Despatche]

this has to be a joke

you're ignoring that the same issues affected capcom and quite a few other companies, and almost completely killed fighting games for the better part of a decade. let's not mention that capcom barely does anything anymore and that people are really starting to dislike them these days.

you are reading way too much into these things, and you're getting some things plain wrong for the sake of a poor point/joke (i can't believe you honestly think the "failure" of the ngp had to do with snk's game output). there are very few similarities between snk and cave.

[Marc]

[quote="Gus Just look at that log of Prom's runs from back in 2008 and you'll see him playing the game for several hours almost every day for 5 months and yeah, he had loads of shitruns before he got that 488m run.[/quote]

What you don't seem to comprehend is that Prom's guide (and yes, I've read it), to some people, is taking a past time that's supposed to be fun, and actually making the exact opposite of it. We don't all work the same way as you. Serious question, do you like videogames in general, do you play anything else? Or is getting good at Shmups such a burning desire that you write off the rest of the field?

[IseeThings]

No, it's not meant as a joke, or a troll or anything like that.

SNK, NeoGeo primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after HNG64 failed
Cave, SH3 primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after PCHW (DS2) failed

SNK, rabid fanbase who only wanted their games a certain way, and were downright rude to others who disagreed
Cave, .... see other thread on this very forum

SNK, failed to produce anything of note which really took advantage of modern hardware
Cave, ... likewise

SNK, saw their games receiving distinctly average reviews much to the annoyance of a fanbase following in blind faith
Cave, ... see other threads

SNK, had problems getting their games approved on certain platforms outside of Japan
Cave, ... same for PS3?

SNK, artificially controlled market prices by having strictly limited supply of a product not worth anywhere near what they were selling it for (AES carts)
Cave, ....

SNK, attempted to move into the portable market by producing watered down games based on their IP
Cave, attempting to move into portable / mobile market by producing watered down games based on their IP

In both cases there was a failure to adapt, too much focus on a single narcissistic fanbase, and aging platforms, overvaluing of IP, and reactions which ended up being too little too late.

Cacpom IMHO spent more time looking into newer platforms, embracing newer technologies, appeasing the fanbase with some of their games, while building new fanbases based around the games their old one was rejecting.

Cave are struggling for a reason.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

this has to be a joke

you're ignoring that the same issues affected capcom and quite a few other companies, and almost completely killed fighting games for the better part of a decade. let's not mention that capcom barely does anything anymore and that people are really starting to dislike them these days.

you are reading way too much into these things, and you're getting some things plain wrong for the sake of a poor point/joke (i can't believe you honestly think the "failure" of the ngp had to do with snk's game output). there are very few similarities between snk and cave.

Capcom went to shit because like Blizzard and Activision they have gotten greedy with milking the genre and its shitty monetisation. I'm not seeing the same thing from CAVE. As long as they continue to make game modes that are fully catered for the hardcore crowd I don't see the problem of Iphone stgs, better difficulty scaling, touchpad integration into their console ports if they pick the WiiU, anything that makes them money and helps make the genre more popular is not wrong in itself, its how they go about that matters.

EDIT back in the shmups heyday did anyone play for 1CCs, high level score etc? Nope but theres nothing stopping ppl going back and enjoying those games both casually or hardcore.

Ofc it needs the hardcore members to keep tabs on the standard of the games that are currently releasing, Sine Mora been a good example. But a little perspective is needed rather than blind elistist sentiment, lest outsiders start viewing the community and the genre as just another retarded group like Sonic Fanboys who raged on Sonic's eye colour in Sonic 4 ep 1.

I imagine that many mainstream reviewers and gamers view shmups as just something to play for lols where playing for score and the 1CC is only things its retarded fanbase does. The jokes that were made at the end of the OXM sine mora vid kind of ring true imo

[trap15]

SNK, NeoGeo primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after HNG64 failed
Cave, SH3 primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after PCHW (DS2) failed

CAVE SH3 is a lot more powerful than the Neo Geo, and there's not really any reason to move to anything else, since they can do everything they need/want with their current hardware. The failure of the DS2 hardware was inevitable, and not really comparable to the HNG64 (which actually took a lot of R&D and such)

SNK, rabid fanbase who only wanted their games a certain way, and were downright rude to others who disagreed
Cave, .... see other thread on this very forum

This forum is not CAVE's primary fanbase. SNK had a much larger and diverse fanbase; CAVE's is mostly Japanese.

SNK, failed to produce anything of note which really took advantage of modern hardware
Cave, ... likewise

There's not really anything you can do to take advantage of modern hardware in an STG other than "durr look at this cutscene"

SNK, saw their games receiving distinctly average reviews much to the annoyance of a fanbase following in blind faith
Cave, ... see other threads

This is a different circumstance. For SNK, their games actually were mostly crap or more rehashing. They deserved those average reviews. For CAVE, the issue is that mainstream reviewers these days are retarded, and if it's not CALL OF DOODY!!1!1!!11 it's not good, and they care more of flashy graphics than actual gameplay mechanics (see IGN saying Sine Mora and Skyrim are superior to Akai Katana in every way).

SNK, had problems getting their games approved on certain platforms outside of Japan
Cave, ... same for PS3?

PS3 is a Japanese console and Xbox360 is an American console.

SNK, artificially controlled market prices by having strictly limited supply of a product not worth anywhere near what they were selling it for (AES carts)
Cave, ....

Mostly true, can't argue much with this particular point.

SNK, attempted to move into the portable market by producing watered down games based on their IP
Cave, attempting to move into portable / mobile market by producing watered down games based on their IP

Mobile devices these days are much more powerful and capable of producing close-to-arcade ports than back then. SNK's portable offerings were mediocre at best, whereas CAVE's are essentially arcade ports with a different input mechanic (if you don't count Bug Panic)

In both cases there was a failure to adapt, too much focus on a single narcissistic fanbase, and aging platforms, overvaluing of IP, and reactions which ended up being too little too late.

Cacpom IMHO spent more time looking into newer platforms, embracing newer technologies, appeasing the fanbase with some of their games, while building new fanbases based around the games their old one was rejecting.

Cave are struggling for a reason.

They don't need to adapt; they don't really care that much, if at all, about this forum, who is mostly not their fanbase, and I'm fairly sure that their actual fanbase isn't nearly as rabid as the mexican fanbase that SNK had; and they don't need to make any new platform because the current one does everything that they need.

[Nasirosuchus]

SNK, NeoGeo primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after HNG64 failed
Cave, SH3 primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after PCHW (DS2) failed

CAVE SH3 is a lot more powerful than the Neo Geo, and there's not really any reason to move to anything else, since they can do everything they need/want with their current hardware. The failure of the DS2 hardware was inevitable, and not really comparable to the HNG64 (which actually took a lot of R&D and such)

SNK, rabid fanbase who only wanted their games a certain way, and were downright rude to others who disagreed
Cave, .... see other thread on this very forum

This forum is not CAVE's primary fanbase. SNK had a much larger and diverse fanbase; CAVE's is mostly Japanese.

SNK, failed to produce anything of note which really took advantage of modern hardware
Cave, ... likewise

There's not really anything you can do to take advantage of modern hardware in an STG other than "durr look at this cutscene"

SNK, saw their games receiving distinctly average reviews much to the annoyance of a fanbase following in blind faith
Cave, ... see other threads

This is a different circumstance. For SNK, their games actually were mostly crap or more rehashing. They deserved those average reviews. For CAVE, the issue is that mainstream reviewers these days are retarded, and if it's not CALL OF DOODY!!1!1!!11 it's not good, and they care more of flashy graphics than actual gameplay mechanics (see IGN saying Sine Mora and Skyrim are superior to Akai Katana in every way).

SNK, had problems getting their games approved on certain platforms outside of Japan
Cave, ... same for PS3?

PS3 is a Japanese console and Xbox360 is an American console.

SNK, artificially controlled market prices by having strictly limited supply of a product not worth anywhere near what they were selling it for (AES carts)
Cave, ....

Mostly true, can't argue much with this particular point.

SNK, attempted to move into the portable market by producing watered down games based on their IP
Cave, attempting to move into portable / mobile market by producing watered down games based on their IP

Mobile devices these days are much more powerful and capable of producing close-to-arcade ports than back then. SNK's portable offerings were mediocre at best, whereas CAVE's are essentially arcade ports with a different input mechanic (if you don't count Bug Panic)

In both cases there was a failure to adapt, too much focus on a single narcissistic fanbase, and aging platforms, overvaluing of IP, and reactions which ended up being too little too late.

Cacpom IMHO spent more time looking into newer platforms, embracing newer technologies, appeasing the fanbase with some of their games, while building new fanbases based around the games their old one was rejecting.

Cave are struggling for a reason.

They don't need to adapt; they don't really care that much, if at all, about this forum, who is mostly not their fanbase, and I'm fairly sure that their actual fanbase isn't nearly as rabid as the mexican fanbase that SNK had; and they don't need to make any new platform because the current one does everything that they need.

1) Arcade hardware is a lot more powerful than it was in the 90's, so the gap between portables and arcade hardware is still there. Smartphones and other portable devices simply aren't powerful enough to do what arcade hardware/consoles/pc's can do.

2). As far as taking advantage of modern hardware, it can be done. I'm sure that people said the same thing about 2D fighting games.

3). It really doesn't matter whether Cave's fanbase is on this forum or not. The similarity is still there.

4). If adapting weren't important, then Cave wouldn't be struggling because of failure to do so.

[Despatche]

that post is impossible.

1 doesn't work. the neo-geo was used in a time when it was best and in a time where it was necessary, nowhere else. the sh3 was dated from the start, and has stopped being cave's "primary platform" for a very long time.

2 might happen with snk's fairly large and worldwide fanbase, but it has never happened to cave and this would not affect their output anyway. no, this forum is not cave's fanbase, sorry.

3 might happen with snk, but cave has tried hard to make themselves profitable and keep the arcade games going, because that also stopped being their primary thing a while ago. they've been successful up until now and i'm certain that is because of forces that threaten far more than just cave.

4 doesn't even work. those mid-2000 snk games were disliked by many due to perceived quality issues, not because of anything involving fanbases or whatever; kofxiii, a game actually made for the fanbase, has been rated fairly high (i do not know sales at the moment). meanwhile, akai katana has received high marks so far, the same as deathsmiles; i'm surprised people are even giving these that much.

with 5, that is almost entirely a sony/microsoft thing. cave has simply avoided the ps3 outright.

6 is a huge joke and i'm shocked you can even say such a thing. at best you get to complain about how cave ports are the same price as skyrim, as if that's some giant injustice.

snk attempted to create a portable of their own to compete with the wonderswan and the game boy color, which was a moderate success. cave simply went Phones Are Cool like everyone else and they have done this for a solid decade, because these phone games are so easy to do, never mind the iDevice ports are certainly not watered-down anything. at best you get to compare cave to square enix.

nothing snk does makes any sense anymore, and they have not been successful for a long time. cave has displayed none of those attributes you mention; they have released games and products to cater to their markets, and have been pretty successful from it.

everything else is conjecture unless we have the best possible history on these two and on current events in japan (probably a whole lot of other things), and no one is going to give me the former.

edit: i don't think you understand this genre very well

[IseeThings]

SNK, NeoGeo primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after HNG64 failed
Cave, SH3 primary (and very dated) platform, stuck by it after PCHW (DS2) failed

CAVE SH3 is a lot more powerful than the Neo Geo, and there's not really any reason to move to anything else, since they can do everything they need/want with their current hardware. The failure of the DS2 hardware was inevitable, and not really comparable to the HNG64 (which actually took a lot of R&D and such)

For it's time period it's actually worse, I mean, it has the SAME output resolution as NeoGeo, and the blitter + CPU are rather weedy for the time in which it was released. The NeoGeo was behind the curve when it came out, but made up for it by having a huge sprite capacity. The SH3 board doesn't really have much going for it.

Also any platform has R&D costs, development of tools and the like, research, sourcing of hw, new test / development setups, security measures, making sure it's reliable etc. etc. Why didn't they just go with Taito Type 2X or something? I think it's the arrogance problem again, same reason they removed all traces of IGS logos on many of their PGM platform games despite everybody knowing they were PGM platform.. They could easily have released those on PGM carts too.

SNK, rabid fanbase who only wanted their games a certain way, and were downright rude to others who disagreed
Cave, .... see other thread on this very forum

This forum is not CAVE's primary fanbase. SNK had a much larger and diverse fanbase; CAVE's is mostly Japanese.

It's representitive of part of it at least, maybe this actually makes things worse for Cave tho.

SNK, failed to produce anything of note which really took advantage of modern hardware
Cave, ... likewise

There's not really anything you can do to take advantage of modern hardware in an STG other than "durr look at this cutscene"

You can make things look a lot better, 320x240 16-bit colour? If you were developing for a better target in the first place things would look better in the ports, you'd have your 16:9 graphics from the start and if there's one thing that sells games today it's how they look.

SNK, saw their games receiving distinctly average reviews much to the annoyance of a fanbase following in blind faith
Cave, ... see other threads

This is a different circumstance. For SNK, their games actually were mostly crap or more rehashing. They deserved those average reviews. For CAVE, the issue is that mainstream reviewers these days are retarded, and if it's not CALL OF DOODY!!1!1!!11 it's not good, and they care more of flashy graphics than actual gameplay mechanics (see IGN saying Sine Mora and Skyrim are superior to Akai Katana in every way).

Is there really a huge difference? At least to a casual user there isn't.. and most reviews will be done by casual users. Different settings, different characters, different backgrounds, different set of gameplay rules, same basic game concept. One is a Vs. Fighter, the other is a Shooter. Just because YOU can see the difference doesn't mean others can, get some fans of the SNK games here and they'd argue the reverse.

To the general population are Skyrim and Sine Mora superior games, yes, absolutely, they look better, they sound better, and don't attempt to alienate the player as much.

I know a lot of people here seem to dislike the attention Ikaruga gets, but have a think about it, would any sane regular person place a title running on the SH3 hardware ahead of that, the sublime mix of detailed 2d and 3d make it look a LOT more modern, which is why the more casual population as a whole regard it as more of a 'modern' classic. The Cave games *look* 2 generations out of date at least. Not saying it's a better game but people want things which show off their hardware, not ones where they're left thinking their PSX could easily have pulled it off.

SNK, had problems getting their games approved on certain platforms outside of Japan
Cave, ... same for PS3?

PS3 is a Japanese console and Xbox360 is an American console.

Which makes even less sense, 'We'll only develop on the home platform hardly anybody has in Japan, take that'

If Sony aren't blocking their games on PS3 then this is just suicidal from a business point of view, and is back to the old arrogance thing. People will buy a 360 just for our games? We'll artificially limit the market too? Do they want to sell things or not?

If Sony are blocking the games on PS3 then the points further up about targetting such limited old hardware in the first place become the suicidal thing.

SNK, attempted to move into the portable market by producing watered down games based on their IP
Cave, attempting to move into portable / mobile market by producing watered down games based on their IP

Mobile devices these days are much more powerful and capable of producing close-to-arcade ports than back then. SNK's portable offerings were mediocre at best, whereas CAVE's are essentially arcade ports with a different input mechanic (if you don't count Bug Panic)

More powerful, yes, more powerful than the systems they're porting from, makes the ports look cheap. Also as discussed elsewhere the control systems and screen sizes you're dealing with don't really suit their core game design well, the market is already flooded, and getting a look in edgeways against the current big players is difficult, not even DoDoDonpachi would do well against Angry Birds

In both cases there was a failure to adapt, too much focus on a single narcissistic fanbase, and aging platforms, overvaluing of IP, and reactions which ended up being too little too late.

Cacpom IMHO spent more time looking into newer platforms, embracing newer technologies, appeasing the fanbase with some of their games, while building new fanbases based around the games their old one was rejecting.

Cave are struggling for a reason.

They don't need to adapt; they don't really care that much, if at all, about this forum, who is mostly not their fanbase, and I'm fairly sure that their actual fanbase isn't nearly as rabid as the mexican fanbase that SNK had; and they don't need to make any new platform because the current one does everything that they need.

In my experience the fanbases are very, very similar, obsessing over tiny details most developers and players wouldn't even notice...

The same things were said about SNK, does everything they need, blah blah blah..

Look at the figures, Cave *do* need to start caring, and start adapting, and start putting out things with mainstream appeal or you're not going to see anymore shooters from them period.

Propping up a business with Casino games / licensing your IP for use in them does seem like an obvious option tho, yes. Again these things tend to see the wrath of a lot of regular fans tho, but there is little crossover in terms of the fanbases so not so many clashes...

[Paradigm]

I do not need to post my scores or pics of 1CC to know I am hardcore.

I know I am hardcore

I have played every shmup this planet has to offer almost and have been successful at doing so.

I turn on one of my many Arcade machines

People who brag crave attention.

lol.

Aside from the bits I quoted, your post as a whole officially confirms you as a troll (at least I hope, for your sake).

[Tokyo-J]

I do not need to post my scores or pics of 1CC to know I am hardcore.

I know I am hardcore

I have played every shmup this planet has to offer almost and have been successful at doing so.

I turn on one of my many Arcade machines

People who brag crave attention.

lol.

Aside from the bits I quoted, your post as a whole officially confirms you as a troll (at least I hope, for your sake).

I guess you do not get Sarcasm

[Paradigm]

Ah gotcha, so all your posts in this thread have been sarcastic then, right?

[Ed Oscuro]

Apologies for a sloppy post earlier, there's a lot going on here!

this has to be a joke

you're ignoring that the same issues affected capcom and quite a few other companies, and almost completely killed fighting games for the better part of a decade. let's not mention that capcom barely does anything anymore and that people are really starting to dislike them these days.

you are reading way too much into these things, and you're getting some things plain wrong for the sake of a poor point/joke (i can't believe you honestly think the "failure" of the ngp had to do with snk's game output). there are very few similarities between snk and cave.

I think you've got a point here - SNK's latest 3D fighting games (Noise Factory) have reportedly had some decent hits amongst them.

I'm not sure how trap15 is qualified to say that this forum is not Cave's primary fanbase, given his recent join date. Sure, it is reasonable to assume their fanbase is "mostly Japanese," but couldn't you say that of SNK as well? So, as regards a non-Japanese audience, Shmups Forum is certainly one of the bastions of Cave support on the net. If the truth were told, SNK's primary forum through the last decade was also a store for SNK items...that's not terribly diverse either.

That's really neither here nor there, though. The smallness of the most active (i.e., that would consider buying a game on their platforms) fanbase for Cave and SNK games is at least a slight similarity.

The hardware problems are a bit diverse - SNK really had no business releasing a monochrome handheld in 1998, the year the Game Boy Color was launched; ditto for Bandai's WonderSwan (released even later!) There are great games on both these platforms but they were far behind the curve. I'm not sure what SNK thought their endgame would be, launching an underspecified product against the big N's vast libraries. They didn't have the same problems Sega did (the GG was cumbersome and too power-hungry), but simply aping a Game Boy Pocket type design was not sufficient to grab market control.

Also, that's an interesting point on the Neo Geo versus its contemporary competitors - I noticed a while back that even the original CPS-1 fares quite well against it. SNK was able to smooth over many of the differences with larger cartridges with FMV and carefully drawn sprites, but it's more convenient to give developers a better specified system to start with.

I know it's easy to throw out invective against FPSes and other mass market games (not going to mention any names...) but development for that market has been pretty fierce, and the genre is definitely more developed than it was years ago, even in regards to basic mechanics (Valve Software has been one of the leaders on this front, from puzzle evolution using the physics gun model, to team balance and pacing mechanics in the Left 4 Dead series; other developers haven't been standing idle either). Most of these changes don't compromise elite gameplay - in the case of Left 4 Dead they arguably enhance it (certainly they offer more possibilities than before). This is a market that has room for even "small" players like Tripwire Interactive, the group behind the highly-regarded Killing Floor.

It is interesting to note that blackoak's Toaplan interview translation thread has people saying "yeah, Toaplan did really well with a few simple ideas." On the other hand, the normal player approaching a modern Cave release is going to feel penalized without having watched a game replay. Some games are simply fun enough that this doesn't matter (RFJ!!) but with Cave there are enough spooky aspects to scare away most players. I wouldn't say that the idea of the genre itself is dated (FPSes are arguably older than the classic Japanese-style level based spaceship shooter, although that's really neither here nor there). I would say that the genre needs some more openings for players. And the classic way of opening the genre to gamers was through flashy graphics and pick-up mechanics.

Some of the angst against cinematic games seems misguided - what are level-based shooters other than a carefully choreographed progression though cinematic scenes? Without this, you are playing an arena shooter like Black Widow, Ark Area, or Geometry Wars.

I am with IseeThings on this - Cave needs to suck it up or they will likely die. I do appreciate their concerns about accuracy and the speed of the gameplay experience, but look, most everybody else is getting along. They can't expect to survive with a mentality based solely on perfectionism, because the world is not perfect. And frankly it is not a good measure of genius if you can't apply your principles outside of a set routine - that seems more like the memorizer concept of game development, instead of true innovation.