Why are the shoddy CAVE ports so expensive?

[Elixir]

http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=1808

This was conveniently posted just before.

Sigh, I don't even know where to begin. Things like an "art gallery" aren't something advantageous over the PS2 Daioujou. That's like saying Mushihimesama is better than Mushihimesama Futari because it has an art gallery. And who says the 360 version is superior?

These are "Crisp 720p graphics for a vastly superior picture" apparently:



I don't have a HD capture card, but you get the idea. The 360 version looks like this. I prefer the MAME version's visuals for clarity.

His perspective is also skewed by favouritism.

a matter of convenience and not owning a 360.

Regarding the lesser popularity of the 360 in Japan, then why are they even? It seems to be a non-issue, a matter of personal preference. Still, there are people streaming shmups on other services than nicolive (ie. livetube, ustream, justin, peercast, etc), and not everyone is in a position to stream, etc. Whenever I do see 2-X players stream (ie. robo, peercast, PS2 or pikkoro, nicolive, PS2), it's the PS2 version.

[Erppo]

I don't get this. If you actually care about playing the games, you should get the 360 version since it has both WL and BL.

[emphatic]

I don't get this. If you actually care about playing the games, you should get the 360 version since it has both WL and BL.

^^This. X-Mode is one of the best console only modes also. It's not in MAME.

[Elixir]

I don't get this. If you actually care about playing the games, you should get the 360 version since it has both WL and BL.

^^This. X-Mode is one of the best console only modes also. It's not in MAME.

Subjective. I'm rank #3 worldwide and I set that score less than a week after it was out. Seems like no one bothers.

Anyway, here's how I see it: Say you're wanting to practice the second stage of DOJWL. In order to properly do this, you will need either the PS2 or MAME version (using savestates). The previous score from the previous stage (anywhere from 20-33 mill WL/BL from fully chaining) supplying hypers, plus the two hypers from the boss (always) total five hypers for the beginning of the second stage. In the 360 port, you can't set the amount of hypers you have entering a stage, so for an area requiring x amount of hypers, only savestates or the PS2 port will prove useful.

That, plus some specific stuff like mid-stage chaining/timing can be practiced with savestates. Things like timing the stage-long chain into the stage two midboss, for example.

Edit: I just tried the 360 port. Stage 2 can't be practised properly, you can't set hyper count or power level. It's either base power or full (and you don't get the full ship power until mid-level of the second stage, normally).

[moh]

Why doesn't someone throw up some comparison shots for this guy?

thanks a lot for the comparison pictures! im guessing the one on the bottom is the pcb...
in which case the one on the top just looks desaturated, rather then blurry..
looks fine to me, though =]

are they being played on the same monitor?

[RGC]

No probs. Yep, same CRT through RGB.

I always found the port to be perfectly playable, and an awesome intro to Cave games in general.

[NzzpNzzp]

^^This. X-Mode is one of the best console only modes also. It's not in MAME.

People think hypers destroying bullets make Daifukkatsu too easy.
Obviously for our arrange we should make hypers even better so using them makes you completely invincible with half the shot types.


That mode is like a parody or somethin', seriously.

[Aliquantic]

X-Mode is only for scoring purposes, and isn't exactly trivial to play with that goal in mind, especially with the trickier types (check the top replays on the leaderboards). It's not going to be everyone's cup of tea obviously, but it's not meant to be a survival mode in the first place... outside of Hibachi's final maybe, where hypers don't cancel bullets

(This isn't very different from most Cave Arrange modes, which range from being easier than the original to being almost trivial to clear, but feature different scoring mechanics instead, with varying degrees of success... YMMV)

[evil_ash_xero]

thanks a lot for the comparison pictures! im guessing the one on the bottom is the pcb...
in which case the one on the top just looks desaturated, rather then blurry..
looks fine to me, though =]

are they being played on the same monitor?

That is the game, but I don't know if it's the best shot. The game does look much blurrier, than DOJ or ESPGaluda. Let us know what you think, when you get it.
If you have a modded PS2, there is a de-interlacing thread on here, where you can make it look a bit better. You'd have to rip and then burn the disc though. Not any trouble, if you have a modded PS2. But if you're using an actual JP PS2, there isn't anything you can do.

[Casper<3]

Once you play Black Label (which is an excellent port) you'll have little reason to want to play white label ever again.

"Once you play Futari BL, you'll have little reason to want to play 1.5 ever again."

What? WL is much harder and more challenging due to the second loop's lack of lives, and less hypers (efficiently, bombs). Ask anyone who has played through White and Black extensively.

...white = ps2, black = 360.

Black Label can currently be emulated better than the 360 port. Even the 360 port's practice mode is inaccurate--every stage is playable, but at minimum power.

Not really surprised since you're a 360 fanboy, but I think your basis is rather blurred here.

Not really surprised you would result to pathetic name calling. I do LOVE the 360 but I LOVE the PS2 as well. You can take that stupid argument and shove it.

What I said about WL & BL is true, as some one who has extensively played both. You're Futari statement isn't exactly true. I much prefer 1.5's original and maniac modes over BL. I do love BL's God Mode. A more accurate comparison would be comparing 1.01 to 1.5, which after playing both, there is next to no reason to ever play 1.01 again.

[Aliquantic]

A more accurate comparison would be comparing 1.01 to 1.5, which after playing both, there is next to no reason to ever play 1.01 again.

Unless you are looking to play a more survival-based game with less emphasis on scoring, that is 1.5 is the more polished version, but that doesn't mean 1.01 isn't enjoyable for some credits in its own right... much like DOJWL indeed, though there's a much bigger difference between the Futari versions (look at Sapz's Original 1.01 1cc).

[mugicha]

I apologize if my question sparked a heated debate, I'm a pretty average shmup player, not bad, not that good either, I enjoy playing for survival, and honestly the last thing on my mind is the score, Cave is all pretty new to me, as I went for several years thinking the Dreamcast Shmups were the pinnacle of the genre. I do own both jp ps2 and 360, and after eyeballing the prices on Vanil and BLEX for a little while, they seem to about the same or close (price wise), so I was only curious what some of the members felt about these ports if I were only going to pick up one copy, however after consideration I may have to eventually get both, and even if this is a minor reason to do so, I believe the cover art for PS2 DOJ is probably the best game cover/game artwork I have ever seen.

[moh]

That is the game, but I don't know if it's the best shot. The game does look much blurrier, than DOJ or ESPGaluda. Let us know what you think, when you get it.
If you have a modded PS2, there is a de-interlacing thread on here, where you can make it look a bit better. You'd have to rip and then burn the disc though. Not any trouble, if you have a modded PS2. But if you're using an actual JP PS2, there isn't anything you can do.

yeah, i am using a modded ps2 so i'll check out the de-interlacing mod if its bothering me.
probably a stupid question but why does everyone prefer 240p to 480i ? i understand that 480i is an "interlaced signal" but isn't it still higher resolution then 240p?
I even hear people talking about how the "low-res" modes of games are preferable. again, why is this? wouldn't higher resolution look better?

sorry im just a bit confused D:

[Casper<3]

I apologize if my question sparked a heated debate, I'm a pretty average shmup player, not bad, not that good either, I enjoy playing for survival, and honestly the last thing on my mind is the score, Cave is all pretty new to me, as I went for several years thinking the Dreamcast Shmups were the pinnacle of the genre. I do own both jp ps2 and 360, and after eyeballing the prices on Vanil and BLEX for a little while, they seem to about the same or close (price wise), so I was only curious what some of the members felt about these ports if I were only going to pick up one copy, however after consideration I may have to eventually get both, and even if this is a minor reason to do so, I believe the cover art for PS2 DOJ is probably the best game cover/game artwork I have ever seen.

I and many others forum agree about how awesome the DOJ DV artwork is. Don't feel bad, I and many others on this forum have also double dipped owning both DV & BLEX.

It comes with the territory. If you don't own a JP 360 already then I guess DV would be the way to go as soft modding a PS2 to play it will set you back only about 30 bucks.

However I will say this, I coughed up the cash for a JP 360 and I think it's the best console I've ever owned. I've always been an arcade gamer and that is the one thing that the J360 has. Tons of shooters & fighters.

[BulletMagnet]

These are "Crisp 720p graphics for a vastly superior picture" apparently:

What he actually said was "superior picture on high resolution displays" - in otherwords it'll look better on an LCD. Granted, for an "arcade-perfect" look you'll need the PS2 version and an RGB connection, but that's not what he was talking about.

[Elixir]

Not really surprised you would result to pathetic name calling. I do LOVE the 360 but I LOVE the PS2 as well. You can take that stupid argument and shove it.

What I said about WL & BL is true, as some one who has extensively played both.

"Xbox 360 fanboy" is not an insult, but since you've taken offence to it, you've effectively said "yes, I am". Please tell me how the 360 Black Label is superior to the MAME Black Label.

I apologize if my question sparked a heated debate, I'm a pretty average shmup player, not bad, not that good either, I enjoy playing for survival, and honestly the last thing on my mind is the score, Cave is all pretty new to me, as I went for several years thinking the Dreamcast Shmups were the pinnacle of the genre. I do own both jp ps2 and 360, and after eyeballing the prices on Vanil and BLEX for a little while, they seem to about the same or close (price wise), so I was only curious what some of the members felt about these ports if I were only going to pick up one copy, however after consideration I may have to eventually get both, and even if this is a minor reason to do so, I believe the cover art for PS2 DOJ is probably the best game cover/game artwork I have ever seen.

If money is tight, you could pretty much just play both versions in MAME for free, getting the best out of both versions.

These are "Crisp 720p graphics for a vastly superior picture" apparently:

What he actually said was "superior picture on high resolution displays" - in otherwords it'll look better on an LCD. Granted, for an "arcade-perfect" look you'll need the PS2 version and an RGB connection, but that's not what he was talking about.

DOJWL through an XRGB3 looks better than DOJBLEX through a 360 on an LCD (speaking from experience with both). And for BL, the MAME version looks better (and plays better than) the 360 version.

[Siren2011]

I prefer the MAME version's visuals for clarity.

Wow. That's sad, but true. Remind me never to get the 360 port.

Am I the only one who thinks the green/black hyper beam of black label does not blend well visually with the game at all? It looks disgusting.

[moh]

I prefer the MAME version's visuals for clarity.

Wow. That's sad, but true. Remind me never to get the 360 port.

Am I the only one who thinks the green/black hyper beam of black label does not blend well visually with the game at all? It looks disgusting.

i definitely agree..the hyper just looks like the hyper from the ps2 port didnt shower for a month and got really grimy.

[DQuick]

DOJWL through an XRGB3 looks better than DOJBLEX through a 360 on an LCD

You would want it to, you can get a Japanese 360 and BLEX for less than the price of an XRGB3

[Despatche]

I don't get this. If you actually care about playing the games, you should get the 360 version since it has both WL and BL.

I don't get this. MAME has three different romsets for a basic WL and then BL, which has the final WL romset. You don't have to go through a million menus to get to either, and equipment is impossibly easy to come by.

I'm sorry for repping piracy, but this post was a little silly. This whole thread is dumb, nearly all of it.

[Casper<3]

Not really surprised you would result to pathetic name calling. I do LOVE the 360 but I LOVE the PS2 as well. You can take that stupid argument and shove it.

What I said about WL & BL is true, as some one who has extensively played both.

"Xbox 360 fanboy" is not an insult, but since you've taken offence to it, you've effectively said "yes, I am". Please tell me how the 360 Black Label is superior to the MAME Black Label.

I apologize if my question sparked a heated debate, I'm a pretty average shmup player, not bad, not that good either, I enjoy playing for survival, and honestly the last thing on my mind is the score, Cave is all pretty new to me, as I went for several years thinking the Dreamcast Shmups were the pinnacle of the genre. I do own both jp ps2 and 360, and after eyeballing the prices on Vanil and BLEX for a little while, they seem to about the same or close (price wise), so I was only curious what some of the members felt about these ports if I were only going to pick up one copy, however after consideration I may have to eventually get both, and even if this is a minor reason to do so, I believe the cover art for PS2 DOJ is probably the best game cover/game artwork I have ever seen.

If money is tight, you could pretty much just play both versions in MAME for free, getting the best out of both versions.

These are "Crisp 720p graphics for a vastly superior picture" apparently:

What he actually said was "superior picture on high resolution displays" - in otherwords it'll look better on an LCD. Granted, for an "arcade-perfect" look you'll need the PS2 version and an RGB connection, but that's not what he was talking about.

DOJWL through an XRGB3 looks better than DOJBLEX through a 360 on an LCD (speaking from experience with both). And for BL, the MAME version looks better (and plays better than) the 360 version.

Cut the shit dickhead. You meant it as an insult, at least man up about it.

Mame looks like shit on my computer with weird ratios. I pretty much use it solely for battle garegga. Maybe it's my computer or lack of understanding of mame.

As for your superior this superior that question? I'm not going to defend a statement I didn't say.

[Elixir]

Not really surprised you would result to pathetic name calling. I do LOVE the 360 but I LOVE the PS2 as well. You can take that stupid argument and shove it.

What I said about WL & BL is true, as some one who has extensively played both.

"Xbox 360 fanboy" is not an insult, but since you've taken offence to it, you've effectively said "yes, I am". Please tell me how the 360 Black Label is superior to the MAME Black Label.

Cut the shit dickhead. You meant it as an insult, at least man up about it.

It isn't an insult and I didn't mean it as one. You're going to praise the 360 version blindly regardless of reason. Why are you trying to sell him the game? It's way out of print, 5pb won't see any money from the sale, nor will Arika with the PS2 port, for that matter. So in brief; it's a matter of port quality and personal preference, of which yours is skewed by favouritism.

In case you're unaware, this kind of response is why no one takes you seriously. Nothing a third account won't fix, lol.

Mame looks like shit on my computer with weird ratios. I pretty much use it solely for battle garegga. Maybe it's my computer or lack of understanding of mame.

You haven't even played the MAME version before. Pretty sure your lack of understanding doesn't render MAME redundant or inferior, either. It's a perfectly valid recommendation.

If you've played both labels "extensively", you would know that there isn't a "superior" label. White is survival based while Black is score based. The difference in progression between both versions is noticeable to those who "extensively" play the games.

[stryc9]

I don't get this. If you actually care about playing the games, you should get the 360 version since it has both WL and BL.

^^This. X-Mode is one of the best console only modes also. It's not in MAME.

I keep hearing X-Mode get praise but I can't work it out since it's way to easy for it's own good, even with a focus on scoring. Having said that, I only played it twice before shelving it in favour of BL since I thought my time would be better spent there. I will break it out again soon.

As for graphical comparisons, I play both PS2 and 360 versions in tate thru an 80 cm CRT and under those specific circumstances I can assure you that the difference in display quality, at least post patch, is over represented here. PS2 shows scanlines that stay in place cos of the 240p whereas 360 they seem to roll across the screen, but to be honest thats quite a minor nitpick. Unless your Recap or whatever.

In it's favour at least the 360 version doesn't have the excessive overscan present in the PS2 port - arcade perfect or not, most people will struggle to get the whole picture displayed on their setup, at least using consumer CRTs.

Playing on a HD screen in yoko I thought both versions looked like shit - PS2 was obviously grainy and the 360 one was 'smudgy' (post patch) for lack of a better word.

The practice mode is where the PS2 port shines, and if this is the sort of thing that is important to you then it's worthy of consideration as the 360 version only has two levels of firepower, weak and strong, and as Elixir stated it's still not enough to make a comprehensive training mode.

Finally, 360 obviously has Black Label, and just speaking personally BL is the one I want to (realistically) play.

White Label is quite simply an evil game that takes pleasure in your destruction

[Casper<3]

In case you're unaware, this kind of response is why no one takes you seriously. Nothing a third account won't fix, lol.

You haven't even played the MAME version before. Pretty sure your lack of understanding doesn't render MAME redundant or inferior, either. It's a perfectly valid recommendation.

If you've played both labels "extensively", you would know that there isn't a "superior" label. White is survival based while Black is score based. The difference in progression between both versions is noticeable to those who "extensively" play the games.

I have played the Mame version. Why would you make such a stupid assumption? I've played all the emulated CAVE games in MAME. I prefer Galuda's PS2 port, ...both ports of DOJ. I point blank don't like Guwange, and while Progear was cool I think it's age shows. ...as I said, I really only open mame to play Battle Garegga with a stick. I'm not a PC gamer and really hate having to play games on computer.

As for the rest of your comment, again I'm not going to defend a statement I didn't make. You can argue every side of it into oblivion for all I care, just stop addressing me like it's something I said.

[emphatic]

IIRC, the PS2 port of DOJ will only TATE one way while DOJ BL EX will allow both. TATE Hosei in the PS2 is blurry as hell and TATE is overscan stricken.

[stryc9]

In my opinion the arrange soundtrack in DOJBLEX is pretty nice also, just thought I'd throw that in there.

[chempop]

Emphatic wrote:

IIRC, the PS2 port of DOJ will only TATE one way while DOJ BL EX will allow both. TATE Hosei in the PS2 is blurry as hell and TATE is overscan stricken.

This makes me wonder, if I were to make adjustments in the TV's service menu for fixing the vertical and horizontal size, would there be a difference if I did this in Tate Hosei or regular Tate? Wouldn't the picture end up the same either way, or is there an actual resolution difference between the settings?

[moh]

Emphatic wrote:

IIRC, the PS2 port of DOJ will only TATE one way while DOJ BL EX will allow both. TATE Hosei in the PS2 is blurry as hell and TATE is overscan stricken.

This makes me wonder, if I were to make adjustments in the TV's service menu for fixing the vertical and horizontal size, would there be a difference if I did this in Tate Hosei or regular Tate? Wouldn't the picture end up the same either way, or is there an actual resolution difference between the settings?

the resolution in TATE seems higher, so i think you would get a better picture.

[Elixir]

lol, I just tried practicing the fifth stage of the 360 port. The maximum power level resets whenever you die/reset the stage.

Isn't Tate Hosei ("vertical correction?") used for regular CRTs, while Tate in itself is used for actual arcade displays?

[Gus]

lol, I just tried practicing the fifth stage of the 360 port. The maximum power level resets whenever you die/reset the stage.

Holy shit, that's terrible. Kind of glad I passed on it while I was in Japan.