Ibara impressions (yay, it's finally out!)

ForteMP3 · Post by **ForteMP3** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:54 pm

I have but one question:Can you see the bullets? There's none of those non flashing bullets that they tried to make look like 'real' bullets and as a result, made them IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE did they? :\

What can I say? I can live with Garegga's rank system, but I HATE bullets you just can't spot easily. Hell, even Garegga Type 2 didn't completely fix it.

velocity7 · Post by **velocity7** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:03 pm

Okay, at least there's a clarification on game development. What about music? And any music samples, too? (we've never heard any to date)

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:23 pm

Cthulhu wrote:
Dylan1CC wrote:Thanks for the great impressions! Here's hoping for home port. Wish I could play the real deal though.

...

Also, the fact that it seems to have more ground forces than planes, I am intrigued by that. That will just add to the gritty atmosphere.
You're welcome .

Yeah, the emphasis on ground forces is interesting. It's definitely unique, as I can't think of any other vert game that has this much stuff on the ground for you to plow through.

Hmmm. One game that comes to mind for me is Kyukyou Tiger which has mostly tanks and turrets (at least in the first few levels anyways)

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:41 pm

Okay, I went back and played Garegga a bunch yesterday to refresh my memory and make sure I knew what I was talking about. But first:

TGK wrote: Cthulhu, is the bomb in Ibara behaves like in Garrega (nullifies bullet, doesn't make you invincible) or Batrider (does make you invincible)?

As fine as Garrega is in my opinion, I think the way the bomb was executed was horrid. There is a split second lag before the bomb is fired, and it doesn't keep you invincible either.

The bombs in Ibara do not make you invincible (they might for a split second, but if they do, it doesn't last at all), but they do come out quickly and destroy far more bullets than they do in Garegga. By that, I mean that the odds of a bullet slipping through your bomb (happened to me several times in Garegga with the flamethrower bomb ship) are pretty much zero if you have a reasonable number of bomb icons and the bullets coming at you are coming from in front of you.

Okay, back to the comparisons. First, patterns. The patterns in Ibara are definitely different from those in Garegga. I'd describe them as a nice mix between Cave-style bullet clouds and waves and Raizing-style spread patterns and speed shots. The patterns themselves are where I'd say the styles of Cave and Raizing mix the most. (Yes, I realize that Ibara wasn't actually made by Raizing, but referring to the Raizing crew that worked on it as "Raizing" is useful for comparison.

)

Next, the rank. It's very very very similar to Garegga, and much like Garegga, you can get to around level 4 by just hammering your way through without too much trouble if you're good, but the latter half of the game is pretty much impossible if you've raised your rank too high. The presence of a Garegga-style intense rank system comibined with complicated bullet curtain patterns makes Ibara pretty damn hard.

Your "options" in Ibara are considerably more powerful than they are in Garegga. In Garegga, they're definitely handy, but in Ibara, they pack considerably more firepower - especially once you get some of the more powerful ones, like rockets and napalm.

You can use bombs to blow open buildings and expose extra point icons in Ibara, just like Garegga. The bombs in Ibara are considerably more useful against enemies than they are in Garegga, however, so you'll probably feel more tempted to hang onto them until you're -really- good at the game.

Hope this helps a bit. After playing Garegga, I feel pretty secure in making all these Ibara-Garegga comparisions - the connection between them is very, very clear.

I'm going to be out of town for a week or so pretty soon, but if I can, I'll play Ibara a bit more before I go...

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:01 am

Notice anything about the hitbox size? I think Raizing's are usually a bit bigger than Cave's.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:14 am

Hopefully a bit of batrider has sneaked in as well

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:53 am

WarpZone wrote:Notice anything about the hitbox size? I think Raizing's are usually a bit bigger than Cave's.

Oops, I forgot to mention that. Your hitbox is smaller than it is in Garegga (quite a bit smaller, actually) but it's still larger than it is in "regular" Cave games.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:38 am

AFIK, rank has been around in one form or another since Xevious-the enemies in Xevious get tougher if the player is more skilled.

And here's the link to the Ibara video, for those who haven't seen it yet:

http://www.click-stick.com/game/ibara/video.htm

I LOVE shmups where you get to blow up darn near everything, especially ground targets, and Ibara certainly looks that way.

Anyone who likes shmups with a lot of ground targets would do well to check out Daisenpu/Twin Hawk-ground targets are all you get, and it ROCKS!

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:14 am

I should have known it would be a bad thing having that former programmer from Zing working on this game, he's pissed his company went out of business so now he's getting revenge on shooter players by making an even more sadistic follow-up to Battle Garegga. Vindictive bastard isn't he?

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:22 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
TGK wrote:My thought exactly. I enjoyed Raizing's stuff more than Cave's too, since whenever I die in a Raizing game, I know that it is most likely my fault.
Don't know about anyone else, but I've never had "fairness" problems in Cave games in general, especially considering that bullets are easier to see and hitboxes are usually smaller than in many Raizing games, not to mention that bombs are instantaneous and grant invincibility.

I mean that in Raizing games you are rarely pin to one corner of the screen with very little chance of escape. Maybe I just don't know the trick not to get pinned in Cave games in the first place, but it is much easier to get trapped than in Raizing's stuff I tell ya.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:27 am

on the subject of rank, is there a definite way to keep rank down in Garrega?

I try playing the game twice, once getting every medals that appears and shoot down everything, and I got to the start of level 5, where it becomes excruciatingly hard. The second time I let all the medals pass by and try not to shoot unless attacked too much, and I got to half of level 4. It would seem that the game is actually harder because I hesitate to shoot. And I don't notice any difference in bullet speed between the two plays either.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:45 am

what i disliked the most in garegga rank was how every shot added to the counter, and you had to miss power-ups. having to periodically suicide is not as bad (but it still sucks) as having a pea shooter you can't even mash for all the game.
what i also hated was how you were supposed to know when the rank counter was going to rollover and suicide just before, with no indication of the counter anywhere.
anyway even if it is confirmed the rank is as obnoxious in ibara as in garegga i'll still play it, but not "seriously".

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:07 pm

I went to the arcade again tonight and tried to look at the difficulty settings on the Ibara machine, but there was nothing displayed on the title screen. I don't know if that means it's on normal (and they aren't listing anything because nothing has been changed) or if it just means the game doesn't openly display it's settings.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:29 pm

Darn it, Ch! Makin' me jealous for being able to play Ibara any time ya want.

Thanks for the excellent added impressions. Interesting on the hitbox difference.

Next, the rank. It's very very very similar to Garegga, and much like Garegga, you can get to around level 4 by just hammering your way through without too much trouble if you're good, but the latter half of the game is pretty much impossible if you've raised your rank too high.

See, that's the same as it is for me. I can actually beat the boss alley on Garegga playing like a maniac. But once I get to stage 6's intial battery cannons, I either lose right away or don't make it much further. But I don't mind, this will further give Ibara a nice familar feeling.

EDIT: I should add, getting through stage 4 on Garegga for me non-rank is not so hard, even the boss is reasonable. But by the time I get to Blackheart then I am really getting pounded by the ol' rank calculator.

D · Post by D » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:00 pm

I read an article about cave when they made DoDonpachi and they really regard Battle Garegga as the holy grail of shmupping.
This might also explain Cave is going 8ING omn their effort.

So do I yet I fell that jusging from the videos I have of the Raiden Fighters series and having played Raiden Fighters 1 couple 'o times I maybe even like them better. But theme-wise it's BG all the way.

People complaining about bullet size and scrappnel being in front of it.
scrappnekl can be turned off and bullets can be changed to round balls for the visually impaired. I'm sorry, if you are playing TATE and have a RGB connection and you have difficulty seeing the bullets, it's just your eyes who are worn out.

And scrappnel disguising the bullets...That's the diifficulty. you have to keep track of who fires what in which direction and what explodes.

For the rank system I have no excuse. Why even put power ups in a game then? The rank should been put in IKARUGA, where there are no power-ups at all.

To me I find it interesting how some CAVE fanboys can say they HATE BG, like it's some FPS.

Is there a site that lists all the things that up your rank?
Maybe someone could put it on their site?
Alot of ground gets covered on this site and then it will disappear when the forum crashes (again).

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:10 pm

D wrote:I read an article about cave when they made DoDonpachi and they really regard Battle Garegga as the holy grail of shmupping.
This might also explain Cave is going 8ING omn their effort.

That is really interesting that they regard it as the best yet did not imitate their rank for their own games. Do you remember what magazine that was?

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:25 pm

D wrote:
Is there a site that lists all the things that up your rank?
Maybe someone could put it on their site?
Alot of ground gets covered on this site and then it will disappear when the forum crashes (again).

I believe there is an excellent guide in the strategy section.

Am I the only one who loves Cave AND Raizing games?

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:31 pm

CMoon wrote:
Am I the only one who loves Cave AND Raizing games?

No, you are not the only one.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:34 pm

Am I the only one who loves Cave AND Raizing games?

definitely not.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:36 pm

Am I the only one who loves Cave AND Raizing games?

yep, definitely not. I only have a slight preference for Raizing.[/quote]

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:29 pm

After watching the video, the thing definitely does have plenty o' Garegga references, from what I could see of it, right down to the spinning arm thingies on the first stage and the bomb which is a dead ringer for the Silver Sword's napalm, not to mention the wide spread that the first boss throws at you when it gets cranky and the "flying items that hurt stuff" after you die. However, it looked to me like the bullets were rendered in a bright purple instead of the gray/brown that Garegga used, so if that's the case then it ought to be at least a bit of improvement...or else I just got the wrong impression from the vid.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:50 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:After watching the video, the thing definitely does have plenty o' Garegga references, from what I could see of it, right down to the spinning arm thingies on the first stage and the bomb which is a dead ringer for the Silver Sword's napalm, not to mention the wide spread that the first boss throws at you when it gets cranky and the "flying items that hurt stuff" after you die. However, it looked to me like the bullets were rendered in a bright purple instead of the gray/brown that Garegga used, so if that's the case then it ought to be at least a bit of improvement...or else I just got the wrong impression from the vid.

Yeah the aesthetic similarities are all there, now wouldn't it be the ultimate icing on the cake if the Garegga planes were unlockable?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:03 pm

Dylan1CC wrote:Yeah the aesthetic similarities are all there, now wouldn't it be the ultimate icing on the cake if the Garegga planes were unlockable?

That's an interesting point: Cave has never been particularly eager to include secrets and other such extras in their games (one of their weaknesses, imo); now that this project appears more Raizing-driven, I wonder if there are hidden planes/modes, etc? Although, since apparently the stats of the 1P and 2P planes are "fixed," I'm unfortunately not very hopeful...I think Cave-ism got the best of the "extras" area of this thing's development.

zlk · Post by **zlk** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:00 pm

There are some extra game modes available from what I have read on the 2ch threads. They can be accessed by some button combinations and holding the joystick in a certain way. Maybe someone who knows Japanese can translate them for people to read.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:12 pm

BM: Yeah, probably won't happen. The only Cave game I know of that has extra fighters is Galuda, right?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:35 pm

Well, "extra," yes, but secret, no, seeing as the extra chars pretty much serve to replace the "regular" ones in Arrange Mode. Offhand the only Cave game I can think of with a hidden character is Dangun Feveron, which included the cat from Uo Poko...come to think of it, it also had a time attack mode, which makes it the only Cave game I can think of which has an extra (non-console exclusive) mode, heh heh.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:22 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:Well, "extra," yes, but secret, no, seeing as the extra chars pretty much serve to replace the "regular" ones in Arrange Mode. Offhand the only Cave game I can think of with a hidden character is Dangun Feveron, which included the cat from Uo Poko...come to think of it, it also had a time attack mode, which makes it the only Cave game I can think of which has an extra (non-console exclusive) mode, heh heh.

Thanks BM.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:27 pm

Not sure if this was mentioned here yet, but J2D posted links to new (clear) Ibara replays of all the stages 1-6 (including the ending) on clickstick!
http://click-stick.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=154&start=90

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:13 pm

CMoon wrote:Am I the only one who loves Cave AND Raizing games?

I like both, but my heart lies with Raizing. Can you tell?

I'm very excited about Ibara, and busy downloading some direct feed stuff right now, to see just what it is like. Wish the board wasn't so expensive though

EDIT: Just got done watching the direct feed stuff, stages 1 to 3 so far (thanks for finding them J2D!) and... wow. Thasalotta shrapnel. And crazy new weapons. And all those huge trains in stage 3. That 4 legged walker midboss in stage 3. Midi has some vicious attack patterns. Meidi reminds me of a more angry Nose Lavagghin (Garegga st1 boss). That wave cannon takes a while to wind up, but WOW! The music (what I could hear of it) sounds very Espgaluda-ish, synthmetal stuff. I like it. The enemies, oh so spiky. Those explosions! And did I mention all the shrapnel?

You can see the Cave influence in some of the attack patterns though, large clumps of bullets, lots of clouds, some tight maneuvering to be done. You can also see the Raizing influence, with enemies that home in on your location, firing close range patterns, fast moving enemies and midbosses, as well as arrow, sword and lance shaped bullets and missiles.

Is this what Toaplan would have been making had they not gone bankrupt? It's like a dream come true, Raizing and Cave together again.

</Raizing fanboy mode>

Very, very excited. Hurry up and get cheaper, arcade PCB, or get ported to PS2

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:28 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:However, it looked to me like the bullets were rendered in a bright purple instead of the gray/brown that Garegga used, so if that's the case then it ought to be at least a bit of improvement...or else I just got the wrong impression from the vid.

Yes, the bullets are now "highlighted" with a bluish-purple aura, which makes them easier to see - most of the time. The color palette of the game as a whole is very bluish-purple, so there are still times when the bullets don't stand out as much from the scenery as they do in, say, DDP. The problem I ran into was less the bullets getting lost in the background and more the bullets getting covered up by shrapnel and items - which happened a bit more often than I'd like.

I've hit a wall in Ibara and I have no idea how to overcome it - I can get to level 4, and not a bit past. I can't get to the boss of the level either, ever. There are so many enemies on the first three levels that I have no idea how to pass them without firing so much, and I try to avoid the powerups as much as possible but there are -LOTS- of them... hrm. Methinks I need to see some really good players to get an idea of what you're supposed to do.