GW Generations: Put a bag over her head and do her.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

^ Hey, it wasn't me who suggested the game is a sh*tty port. Nonetheless, all that stuff I wrote about dwindling quality still applies. A lot of shmup-o's just settle for less 'cause shmups are "endangered."

[Rob]

But the thing is enjoying GWG is not settling. It fuckin' rocks.

[gameoverDude]

every time i read a post by recap it makes me feel nauseous.

every time i give him another chance, its always the same. i wonder if he actually enjoys playing any games, or he just sits there measuring his tate screen dimensions endlessly.

Honestly, I can't remember the last post by you that wasn't attacking someone.

I dunno, I still strongly suspect you guys are overrating this game out of principle. 8.5 and Rob seem relatively sane so I'll get a used copy. It had better own and have a passable soundtrack or I'll have to ask you to slap yourselves.

GWG is still a good game. The jaggies, shimmering, and small playarea did annoy me at first- but I was able to get over this gang of quibbles given some time. YMMV on the soundtrack, but I like it myself- especially in the train chase section.

[raiden]

GWG port is at least on par with the arcade version, which makes the weeping all the more ridiculous

no, that just means the arcade version isn´t interesting either.

[Rob]

Then let's not blame the port.

[Randorama]

I don't know, just for fun i'll post here (and well, post count +1), but uh...


Bah, Rob, please head to the high score thread instead, thanks

[BulletMagnet]

-"GWG port is at least on par with the arcade version, which makes the weeping all the more ridiculous."
-"no, that just means the arcade version isn´t interesting either."
-"Then let's not blame the port."

This is definitely my next sig.

[Super Laydock]

After the first impressions posted on this game I gave up on this game already. I never played it but just went along with popular opinion.

This thread however has made me rethink. Some people seem to truly like the game while others shit on it. Who should I believe? I guess there's only one way to find out: I am gonna buy this game dispite my initial apathy towards it (caused by the initial reports and the fact that I didn't like GW2 nearly as much as the first part).

GW1 is one of my favourite shoot em ups and while 2 was dissapointing to me (yeah it looks fantastic and has great music, but the flow of the game isn't there for me as it was in part 1) I guess i owe it a chance.

[Tychom]

I played GWG in the arcade just a few days before it came out, I picked it up the morning it hit the streets in Tokyo. And I really can't see how the PS2 release can be "at least on par with the arcade version" (I was under the impression you had yet to play the arcade verion, Rob?).

The one problem the arcade version has is when things get particularly heavy. It's here that framerate can become jerky instead of slowing down gradually and smoothly, obviously it becomes harder to follow bullets.

Otherwise the game plays reasonably smoothly at 60fps, certainly more so IMO than the PS2 version for the majority of the time. As bloodf says the PS2 port can appear like a flickerbook animation to those of us sensitive to the lower fps.

When you're at the mercy of a slightly jerky framerate it certainly doesnt hurt that in the arcade original the higher resolution helps you pick out your ship, bullet etc from everything else going on, as it gets very muddy and hard to track at the lower res.

Anyway it's a shame as I like the GW series and thought GWG was great in the arcade. Alas I find the port to be a real struggle to play as I just can't follow what's going on reliably

[raiden]

Anyway it's a shame as I like the GW series and thought GWG was great in the arcade. Alas I find the port to be a real struggle to play as I just can't follow what's going on reliably

It´s not like I´d bash GWG for lack of interest: I love GW1, and a tate Gigawing was one of the few shmup concepts I was still waiting for. Disappointment is the reason I sound so bitter in this thread.

[SAM]

This game is terrifyingly mediocre. It's a decent game thoroughly mangled by wretched programming. And I'm not just talking about the visuals, I'm talking about the framerate and controls. A shmup dropping frames is completely unacceptable. When life and death relies on my ability to guide my ship with pixel perfect precision through clouds of bullets, I need to see exactly what is going on at all times, and it's totally impossible here. The game runs smoothly for about two minutes in the first level, and then the whole thing chokes and caves in on itself. When Takumi can learn to program again, maybe I'll give their games another look.

You feel that too. I thought so when I play it at the arcade. *Meow*

The missing Tate mode in the home console port is really an issue for me, as I have put my 22" CRT monitor (10+ kgs) on the side to play games in Tate mode. Every time I play GWG I have to reposition my monitor, the end result is GWG does not make into my PS2 for more then once. *Meow*

In my opinion, perfect console port & PC emulation is slowly killing the shmup guru in the arcade. Yes, they do keep the old classic alive, but in recently years more and more modern STG games have been release on home console or being emulated. *Meow*

This is due to the following facts...

(1) Computer hardware is relatively cheaper these days

These allow more people to own powerful PC, which have to processing power to do real good emulation on the latest arcade games. There also allow Sony/Nintendo/Sega/Microsoft to release increasingly powerful consoles. *Meow*

(2) The game carrying media is much cheaper nowadays

Any one remembers the days when CD-Rom is not a common media for carrying games? *Meow*

At that time Arcade perfect is only a dream, hardware limitation is not the only issue, the cost for capacity for the ROM to carry the game is also major issue. *Meow*

Any one recalls that R-Type was tool big to be put on a Hub card that it has been released on two separate Hub cards, one for stage 1-4 and the other for stage 5 to 8. You have to enter password to carry fore your score, power ups to part II of the game. *Meow*

Once SNK had decide to release Neo-Geo home console with arcade perfect cart, do anyone remember how much a cart cost? Check it out on eBay if you don't. *Meow*

(3) Modern home consoles are much closer in processing power with their arcade counterpart

- In the old days home consoles are inferior in processing power than their arcade counterpart. These gap becomes smaller and smaller as computer hardware becomes cheaper. Modern home console are quite close in power as their arcade counterpart. (DC is just a Naomi less 4M Video Ram) *Meow*

- Arcade Owners tends to invest in games that people cannot play at home for their arcade. They want games that play different in the arcade, for example driving, rhyme, muti-players Vs, Rail shooter (those you holding a light gun). And thus they put less STGs in the arcade. *Meow*

(4) Hardware requirement for STGs is usually lower than video games of other guru

- As arcade owners bought less STG PBC/GD-ROM etc., the game developers have to found more ways to make money with the STGs they have developed. *Meow*

- Lucky the hardware requirement for a STG is usually not very high. Modern console capable to handle 3D arcade games is more than enough to act as a platform for most STGs available. Therefore, many of them port the STGs to home console, a few years after the arcade version release. But this action may have a -ve effect of making the arcade owners reconsider in investing new STGs. *Meow*

- Some game developers even decide to forget about an arcade release and develop a home console title well at the beginning. e.g. "Gradius V" & "R-Type Final". *Meow*

STGs are being seen less and less in arcade. Even stopping PC Emulation on STGs won't stop this trend. *Meow*

But don't worry, game develops would continues to write new STGs, as there are still people (or cats) like us who likes to play STGs. *Meow*

[mannerbot]

It's really hard to take you seriously with that meowing. If you're a girl I guess it's cute but otherwise just stop.

[Rob]

If you're a girl I guess it's cute

There's no excuse.

Anyways, where did that post come from. Are shooting games really "being seen less" in the arcade? There have been a lot of releases over the past few years, and it's not emulated.

[Cthulhu]

Anyways, where did that post come from. Are shooting games really "being seen less" in the arcade? There have been a lot of releases over the past few years, and it's not emulated.

The standard format of Japanese arcades has improved over the last few years. It's now an entryway filled with UFO catchers (crane games), music games, and gimmicky large games to attract casual passer-bys, then you go in a bit farther and find the large electronic card game setups and slightly more hard-core rhythm games, next are the fighting games, and then the shmups and retro games. Shmups don't get front-page or store-front billing, but they're more noticable than they were a few years ago.

[SAM]

Anyways, where did that post come from. Are shooting games really "being seen less" in the arcade? There have been a lot of releases over the past few years, and it's not emulated.

The standard format of Japanese arcades has improved over the last few years. It's now an entryway filled with UFO catchers (crane games), music games, and gimmicky large games to attract casual passer-bys, then you go in a bit farther and find the large electronic card game setups and slightly more hard-core rhythm games, next are the fighting games, and then the shmups and retro games. Shmups don't get front-page or store-front billing, but they're more noticable than they were a few years ago.

You guys are lucky, arcades around here usually got 0 to 3 STGs, and very few of them willing to spend much on STGs.

Thing are much different in Japan then the rest of the world, that's why only Japanese developers are still writing new STGs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
*Meow* I am as serious as a cat could possible be. *Meow*

[chimpp]

Like some in this forum, this game didn't do much for me. Being the first new game I purchased (May 27) since January 14th (bought Castle Shiki 2 from Walmart), I was expecting something even better than GW2. Aren't all sequels supposed to be better?

Anyway, are there any unlockables in this game? I don't want to spend anymore time on it than I have to. If there are unlockables, then I'll keep playing until reveal them. Otherwise, it'll be my most expensive disappointment since XII Stag.

By the way, this is my first post here and I look forward to finally being able to talk shmups to others of my kind after all these years!

[Ghegs]

Anyway, are there any unlockables in this game? I don't want to spend anymore time on it than I have to. If there are unlockables, then I'll keep playing until reveal them. Otherwise, it'll be my most expensive disappointment since XII Stag.

There are no unlockables, but who plays shmups for unlockables anyway? And why would you play a game you don't care about for them?

[chimpp]

Unlockables would justify me buying a game like this. GigaWing 2 was simply awesome and one of the best DC shmups ever. To say that I was let down by GWG is an understatement. I want to make the most of the near-$70 I laid down for this. Perhaps unlockable ships (like in GW2) or the use of the reflect laser (like in GW2) would be nice. But after spending about an hour total on this game in almost a month of owning it, I'd hate for it to gather dust to be never played again, like XII Stag, Night Raid, and the original GigaWing. But that's what's going to happen now that you've told me the awful truth about this game.

Anyway, I noticed that the credits of this game is rather short. Perhaps the lack of visual flair and uninspired gameplay is due to a woefully understaffed development team?

[raiden]

Unlockables would justify me buying a game like this

why? Unlockables are just a stupid trick, supposed to replace fun gameplay. Ever since I saw the 1000 hour requirement in R-Type Delta, I haven´t taken seriously a single unlockable in any game I came across.

[chimpp]

Unlockables would justify me buying a game like this

why? Unlockables are just a stupid trick, supposed to replace fun gameplay. Ever since I saw the 1000 hour requirement in R-Type Delta, I haven´t taken seriously a single unlockable in any game I came across.

I must not have sounded clear to everybody about it. I didn't buy it on the premise that there would be unlockables. I bought this game because I enjoyed GW2 so much. I want as much out of the $70 that I paid for it as I can. It would be a waste for me to shell out all that money and not unlock something because if I didn't (assuming there are unlockables), that would be like not experiencing all that it had to offer to me.

So, to reiterate--for me, I need to justify my purchase of this game. Simply spending an hour on it is a waste of the $70 that I paid since there is no replay value. If there was something to unlock in the game then I'd put in some more playtime into GWG until I do so. Otherwise, I'm pretty much done with this game! But I'm not selling it simply because I like to keep all my shmups, good or BAD.

[Alske]

For me, unlockables motivate me to keep playing a game I'm having trouble getting into a little while longer.

If Mars Matrix not had unlockables I probably would have given up on the game after 4-5 hours, fed up of getting stomped by the game and not understanding why.

By the way, the only things that you can unlock in Gigawing Generations are levels in the score attack section.

[chimpp]

For me, unlockables motivate me to keep playing a game I'm having trouble getting into a little while longer.

If Mars Matrix not had unlockables I probably would have given up on the game after 4-5 hours, fed up of getting stomped by the game and not understanding why.

By the way, the only things that you can unlock in Gigawing Generations are levels in the score attack section.

This is exactly what I wanted to say! I feel the same way about Mars Matrix, too. I spent countless hours playing the same level just to earn enough money for the next unlockable. That level wasn't all that fun, but it net me some serious cash. By itself, it was an okay game--too hard for this old man. But it had one of the most ingenious unlockable system, for a shmup.

And if that's all I can unlock in GWG, guess I'm done with it!

[Rob]

I want as much out of the $70 that I paid for it as I can.
...
there is no replay value. If there was something to unlock in the game then I'd put in some more playtime into GWG until I do so.

I realize you are new here, but some of us play for score. The replay value is playing for score, the unlockables are scores. Unlock a good score.

[Alske]

I want as much out of the $70 that I paid for it as I can.
...
there is no replay value. If there was something to unlock in the game then I'd put in some more playtime into GWG until I do so.

I realize you are new here, but some of us play for score. The replay value is playing for score, the unlockables are scores. Unlock a good score.

I understand the value of playing for score, but unlockables and such prompt me to keep playing for a while longer if the base system hasn't grabbed me. For many games, I just need an excuse to play long enough to get used to the system. In other words, to appreciate Gigawing Generations on a "for score" level, you really need to get a feel for the reflect force and the point-blanking system. I was accumstomed to both of those from Mars Matrix and Gigawing 2, so I was able to jump right into the game.

However, I can see someone who had never played a Takumi game being irritated by how little Gigawing Generations motivates the player to get better. It's the same reason why I gave up playing Psyvariar 2, Zero Gunner 2, Shikigami no Shiro 1 and 2 and just went back to playing GigaWing 2 and E.S.P. Galuda; the former games didn't immediately strike me as being more fun then the later. Thus I played them for a few hours, got to that point where one's skill-progression begins to level off and called it quits. Unlockables would have motivated me to keep playing until the unlockables where unlocked, and maybe I would have wound up liking the games more.

[Rob]

Motivation for score based games comes from other people playing for score. For most of us, it's the hi-score forum.

But even those games you mentioned have internal motivational tactics. Psyvariar 2 and GWG's final stages have requirements that must be met to reach them, for instance.

[Alske]

I guess my point is that I believe a game should provide some imputus for motivating the less-than-hardcore to get to a point at which they can be competitive. Unlockables can help give less-experienced players that little extra bit of motivation or practice that they need to get to a level that they can appreciate playing a game for score, or even just to get a 1CC. It's a barrier-to-entry that exists, yet could easily be removed.

As to the original topic of this thread. Gigawing Generations IS a horrendously ugly game: low resolution textures, horribly inconsistent visualdesign in the later levels, and a stuttering frame-rate (though the bullets appear, at least to me, to be locked into a different frame rate from the generic 3D objects). The load-times ARE atrocious.

However, I do agree that the game is fun; quite a lot of fun even. It's just not as good as Gigawing 2.

What still irritates me about the game is hit detection. During the fight with the level 5 boss, many of his bullets seem to have their own hit boxes. Meaning that: your hit box can overlap with a portion of a bullet, and this will not result in your death. This frustrates me to no end. Either that, or the hit box on your ship is decidedly not where it appears to be.

[Rob]

I guess my point is that I believe a game should provide some imputus for motivating the less-than-hardcore to get to a point at which they can be competitive.

Isn't the motivation for the new guy as simple as not getting their ass kicked by the game repeatedly? No one likes to be beaten.

[Alske]

No one likes to be beaten, but discouraging someone is quick road to getting them to quit.

I remember absolutely loathing the first GigaWing. I had a friend who reviewed games for the local paper and we spent a good 4-5 hours one night playing it. The first hour or so was spent getting used to the mechanics of the game; during which we improved dramatically. After that initial burst of progress ended things started to feel as though we weren't getting better; that bastard of a 3rd stage boss kept decimating us.

We concluded, in a admittedly defeatist manner, that this was as good as we where going to get without dedicating an obscene amount of time to practice. In a game like Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun or Mars Matrix where there exists unlockables, we probably would have pressed a little farther onward, and potentially seen that contrary to our beliefs we could get better at the game.

It was because I hadn't had a game that showed me how much fun it could be to truly overcome a seemingly impossible challenge that I didn't want to continue; I didn't really believe that I could.

Fast forward to when Mars Matrix got me obsessed with unlocking stuff. A most peculiar thing happened, after 20 hours of collecting cash I found that I was starting to look forward to the prospect of getting a higher score, and thus more unlocks; I was chasing the challenge.

While I don't need that sort of motivation any more to get into a shooter, I'll not soon forget why shooters went from occaisional novelty to one of my primary genres.

[chimpp]

Isn't the motivation for the new guy as simple as not getting their ass kicked by the game repeatedly? No one likes to be beaten.

I'm not all about high scores since I don't have any friends who play shmups as religiously as I do, so I can't compare my scores. For me, it is all about trying to stay alive in the game, or as you put it "not getting (my) ass kicked by the game repeatedly." For many shmups, the game is exciting enough that I strive for perfection by playing over and over again. Scoring isn't important; merely staying alive is all it's about when I play. I seriously tried the same for GWG. I was able to single-credit the game on all ships except for the green one (albeit on the easiest difficulty with 9 lives and 9 bombs--I'm a busy guy with little time to play games anyway). So I kept trying to single-credit on the green ship for the longest time and just had to quit out of frustration. I wasn't really enjoying it as I tried to single-credit, I just wanted to get it over with to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Anyway--enough talk about GWG. I'm ready to start playing a good shmup again!

[Rob]

For me, it is all about trying to stay alive in the game
...
I was able to single-credit the game on all ships except for the green one (albeit on the easiest difficulty with 9 lives and 9 bombs

Maybe you wouldn't think you've wasted your money if you stopped steamrolling over the level designs? Give them a chance to shine. It's a score based game. 9 lives and bombs is too much slack even if playing for score.