I HATE shmups with Infinite continues, you can't turn off...

[Icarus]

It shouldn't really matter how you practice to achieve a 1CC, as long as it eventually leads to a proper, uninterrupted 1CC, without use of cheats, restarts, savestates etc during said credit.

All the energy you guys are spending arguing in this discussion on "real" and "fake" 1CCs is IMO quite wasted, and better spent on in-game practice, since every player has a different method of practicing a game to achieve the 1CC goal. Calling someone's ALL Clear achievement a "fake" because of the practice methods used is arrogant and elitist.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Yeah, and I don't think there's much benefit to making those distinctions.

Well, since the 1CC concept involves skill and comparing different player's performance, I think those distinctions are indeed important. There are several shortcuts to "achieve the product" and only one to achieve it "straightly". It's also a matter of standardization - you some times credit-feed, some others, single-credit, some others use 10 lives per credit... and more importantly, what's the point to keep playing a game once you've seen all it has to offer?

10 lives per credit?
Thats why most people play with defaults, which is usually 3 chances.
I would call that cheating too(10 lives), so at least we agree on something.

"Whats the point of playing once you've seen what it has to offer?" Because its fun/enjoyable? You don't have to play the thing everyday for 6 hours...

Are you performing some sort of "survey" with all these weird/goofy questions/statements...or are you simply trying to be annoying?

First you were talking about the so called "Sting" that PCB buyers feel from time to time, now you're talking about "Fake 1CC's".
Why don't you just come out and say that you think the term "Shmups" is a stupid word while your at it!?

[Rastan78]

what's the point to keep playing a game once you've seen all it has to offer?

This is pretty laughable, especially on a forum about shmups. What would be the point? How about playing to improve your skills and your score!?

[jp]

3 lives per credit, 10 lives per credit, its still 1 credit anyway you cut it, and its still impressive because it involves the number "1" and the word "credit".

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

3 lives per credit, 10 lives per credit, its still 1 credit anyway you cut it, and its still impressive because it involves the number "1" and the word "credit".

Aww c'mon now JP, you're totally going to confuse the guy now! I felt I was starting to make progress with Recap...now you just went in and "mind-fucked" him.

As far as I know, I was one of the first ones here to coin the phrase 1CC.
Which shorty afterwards, I created the 1CC / One Credit Completetion List(which is long gone BTW)
We all know what 1CC means, and it should also be known that it means full default settings are to be used.

Whats the point of a 1CC in DoDonPachi if you used 10 lives per credit...3, 6, 9, one extra. Thats like continuing 3 times!!! It defeats the purpose!!!
I hope you were just being sarcastic, as I shouldnt have to point these things out.

Either way, this discussion is getting dumb...time to move on, as I sincerely doubt anything intelligent can be said anymore.

If you want to play your games on easy with 100 lifes per credit, thats up to you! Just don't brag about your score/accomplishments here, as I doubt anyone will be impressed. Especially the "Otaku's"!!!

[Recap]

Maybe we can just agree to disagree here. I noted later in my previous post that seeing if practice methods affect the resultant skill in whatever 1CC would be interesting, but I don't think it should make any difference to calling something a 1CC or not.

Since this is getting so nitpicking, notice that I do not refuse to call the fake ways "1CC" too.

There are several shortcuts to "achieve the product" and only one to achieve it "straightly".

But does the product differ in any way? And if the product does differ, shouldn't you judge by evident skill rather than by some preconception about the method?

Nope. I'll give you an easy analogy: Learning how to chain in Ikaruga is not too hard by watching videos. Learning how to do it by yourself with no references is much, much harder. Both will require different skill to get the same "product", though. See the point? It's a matter of shortcuts or "straight" ways.

It's also a matter of standardization - you some times credit-feed, some others, single-credit, some others use 10 lives per credit...

I don't see how this relates to defining 1CCs, or much of anything else. It is still my opinion that practice has no bearing on whether or not something qualifies as a 1CC. Is there some other point to this discussion than what constitutes a 1CC?

"Default settings". As I said, you can also 1CC a game with 10 lives. But would you call it "1CC" too? Standardization has become a necessity when we speak about "1CC". For the same reason, the conditions to reach the 1CC play should be the same for all. And yep, that should include controllers, for instance. People loves auto-fire functions these days, to name one of the issues.

and more importantly, what's the point to keep playing a game once you've seen all it has to offer?

To get a better score, to find a more daring route, to play with a sense of humor, to develop more repeatable approaches...to have fun, maybe

Well, I won't be arguing on that. I myself can't find true incentives to play a game I've completed (and not forgotten) and that's probably the reason I've never used more than one credit, but hey.

[shiftace]

Learning how to chain in Ikaruga is not too hard by watching videos. Learning how to do it by yourself with no references is much, much harder. Both will require different skill to get the same "product", though. See the point? It's a matter of shortcuts or "straight" ways.

Yes, I see that point, I just value it differently. Learning the game by watching others and then completing it in one credit is still a 1CC, no matter if we think it is lame, not hardcore enough, or whatever else. I, for one, have neither frame-perfect memory nor reflexes, so I can still find a game challenging even though I know in detail how to play it.

"Default settings". As I said, you can also 1CC a game with 10 lives. But would you call it "1CC" too? Standardization has become a necessity when we speak about "1CC". For the same reason, the conditions to reach the 1CC play should be the same for all. And yep, that should include controllers, for instance. People loves auto-fire functions these days, to name one of the issues.

If 10 lives is the game designer's default setting, then using up to 10 lives for a 1CC should be allowed. If the default for the game is 3 lives, then 3 lives is the limit. I think the default settings supplied by the company that releases the game provide enough standardization. Changing the default number of lives is plainly cheating, but complaining about the default value is silly.

I myself can't find true incentives to play a game I've completed (and not forgotten) and that's probably the reason I've never used more than one credit, but hey.

I... see.

[Recap]

If 10 lives is the game designer's default setting, then using up to 10 lives for a 1CC should be allowed. If the default for the game is 3 lives, then 3 lives is the limit. I think the default settings supplied by the company that releases the game provide enough standardization.

You can be sure there's not a single arcade game with 10 default lives. Default settings are not always reliable, thoe. For instance, you must be careful with most of SS/DC ports of Capcom games - they're usually at the lowest diff setting by default.

Changing the default number of lives is plainly cheating, but complaining about the default value is silly

So let me know the difference between using three "default" (3-lives) credits and a single "9-lives" credit.

[Nei First]

Well, back in those days more shmups were console-exclusive...in more recent times a greater and greater percentage of them have been ported from the arcades. In any case, the mentality is still the deciding factor: some of those old games more or less forced you to have it (like Firepower 2000...it doesn't let you continue at all, you HAVE to 1CC the thing to finish it), while these days shmups just give you the option, in order to make the games more accessible. I don't think that's a bad thing in itself; what needs to change is the general gaming attitude, so that even if one credit feeds to see the end of a game or practice at first, the lure of a 1CC is still there afterwards.

Yes, I see your point man. Which is also why I think giving you the option would really help this. Those people could credit feed whenever they wish, but then whenever they're ready they can play it properly or 1CC the game, or whatever.

[shiftace]

So let me know the difference between using three "default" (3-lives) credits and a single "9-lives" credit.

Only one of them uses the default credit definition for the game, because a game only has one default. Using 3 credits is always cheating from a 1CC perspective. Using 1 credit with 9 lives may or may not be cheating, depending on the game's default settings. Whether or not anybody can name a game that gives 9 lives by default is immaterial.

I think your use of the word "default" in the question obscures the point.

[Recap]

Using 3 credits is always cheating from a 1CC perspective.

That's all I wanted to read.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Ok, so...we all know and agree with what "default" means. I'm relieved.
Anyhoo, I remember a few console games that did have more than 3 lives at default. ThunderForce III comes to mind. I remember it having at least 4 or 5 to start with, so there may be exceptions to the "3 life per credit" rule, but these are factory default AND rare.

I really cannot be that impressed with someone who learns how to play a game by memorizing a replay video. Personally, I think a player that does that, is robbing himself of the challenge the game is supoosed to provide.
Still, even though, its a 1CC. I prefer to challenge myself though, and I get more enjoyment out of "learning/mastering" the game on my own...even if it takes years, as I'm in no rush or hurry to be the first to 1CC all Caves latest shit. Oh well...

Also, I have plenty of DC Capcom games, and they are not set at the lowest diff.
Most are set at 4 out of 8...which is "normal" or medium.
Although a few USA ports are set at 2 of 8. I change those back up to match the Japanese counterparts. For fighters, I crank it up all the way to 8.

Then again, default is default. Most people include the version as well as region, regarding how the game was played.

Again, this discussion is getting pretty anal...
It almost sounds like rules to be followed by some sort of "Elite Otaku Tournament" being taken place in some dark arcade in Japan, where only a select few are addmitted.

Its ok to follow this strict form of play for 1CC lists, of for competition of High Scores, but for normal play, why argue with someone about how you think THEY should play?

[IlMrm]

All these talks about cheating bought back an old memory. I remembered playing Strikers Plus, and at the 1-6 midboss(the tank on the track) I stayed on top of it(safe spot). Some onlooker said to his friend "that's borderline cheating". Too bad the 1-6 boss was coming up, or I would've lectured him a little.

I sure hope using safe spot in patterns instead of dodging said patterns isn't considered cheating.

[cigsthecat]

All these talks about cheating bought back an old memory. I remembered playing Strikers Plus, and at the 1-6 midboss(the tank on the track) I stayed on top of it(safe spot). Some onlooker said to his friend "that's borderline cheating". Too bad the 1-6 boss was coming up, or I would've lectured him a little.

I sure hope using safe spot in patterns instead of dodging said patterns isn't considered cheating.

I would think anyone of that opinion isn't good enough to have to worry about it too much.

[sjewkestheloon]

sorry a little late but i've got to point out the flaw in the criticism of my play on different difficulty levels. the game i was primarily refering to is strikers 1945 part 2 and even comparing the lowest level to normal, you can create a strategy on how to dodge any patterns. for example the gliath boss' patterns are just less complicated versions of the same spread that you get in later difficulties. the ease in the more simple patterns usually relies upon a bullet missing in a spread etc. playing perceptively you can choose not to use this respite if you wish. for example playing on easy mode there are occasional gaping holes that aren't present in normal, but that doesn't essentially mean i have to use them.

when people say that different difficulties are essentially a different game, i think that that is only true if you are playing from pure memorisation. playing through on any difficulty against stuff that challenges you imroves your reactions to situations, and by successfully getting through an area that you find tough on a low difficulty level, you can give yourself a bare bones strat for when you encounter it with more bullets.

that's a little garbled i know but my brain's fried from essays and exams lol

oh and the comment that getting a 1cc my way would take ages is true. it is taking ages but i'm HAVING FUN. get it? enjoyment? not many here are comp players so get over yourself

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

All these talks about cheating bought back an old memory. I remembered playing Strikers Plus, and at the 1-6 midboss(the tank on the track) I stayed on top of it(safe spot). Some onlooker said to his friend "that's borderline cheating". Too bad the 1-6 boss was coming up, or I would've lectured him a little.

I sure hope using safe spot in patterns instead of dodging said patterns isn't considered cheating.

SEE,see...I'm a better player than you are, as I've never needed a safe spot for the stage 6 mid boss.
I just would go head on but, slightly to the side.(off center to middle)

Maybe one day I'll try your safe spot idea out...I'll probably die trying though...would you be able to kill the rail tank this way? Or did you let him slip by?

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

By the way, If I heard anyone tell be that I'm borderline cheating from using a "safe spot", I'd turn around and poke their eyes out...Moe style!
See, I come from the R-Type school of pattern memorization. You HAVE to find the "safe spots", its not optional. Sometimes, there is no other way.

[it290]

Hmm, I don't really agree with the idea of a 'fake' 1CC, but just to add some fuel to the fire, what about using performance-enhacing drugs (ie amphetamines or similar)? Would that make the run 'fake' as well?

[TVG]

zzz, seriously.

[neojma]

Bah, everyone please quit whining about 1CC and limited credits. Do I like shmups any less because I'm never going to finish DOJ on one credit? Hell no. So give me my credits! You don't want 'em, play on one credit. Want another way to keep up with multiple credits? Get a handful of coins (one for each credit you want) and "pay" one of them each time you continue.

It's insanity to make a limited credit game in this genre. You already have a small enough fanbase as it is, and you just alienate a fraction of that fanbase by making a game harder by reducing the level of credits. I sincerely doubt more than 1% of even fans of the genre can 1CC most modern Cave and Psikyo stuff. Insisting for less credits is akin to giving Resident Evil players access to no weapons except the knife. Crazy hardcore players can finish the game that way, and it serves as somewhat of a badge of honor (just like a 1CC), but I wouldn't want EVERYONE to have to play the game that way. Those RE players COULD have picked up a handgun, but they are free not to - just like we are free to not utilize continues.

Some people don't have the time or desire to memorize every game they play. I'd rather play a variety of games and not be uber-1CC godlike on any of them. I don't see the fun in MEMORIZING for hours and hours, and then repeating again and again. If I want to engage myself in a repetitive memorizing activity, I'll do something more useful like learn a foreign language. When I'm playing a game Id rather have fun.

That's not to say I won't improve - if it takes me 20 credits to finish a game the first time, then 18, then 14, then 8... I'm still improving and learning more about the game. I can always go for score. I'd rather add credits so I can enjoy seeing more scenery than the first few levels every time I play the game. It strikes me as pointless to quit when I have to continue on stage 4. I'll just keep playing the game and try to do even better next time. Do you ever see an Olympic hurdler start running, clip the first hurdle, then give up and start over? Hell no. Keep going, acknowledge your mistake, and hopefully do better next time with your newfound knowledge.

Also, I think Metal Slug 3 on Xbox was a disaster - I see it almost as a censoring of the original game. Sometimes I want to hunker down and play on one credit. But sometimes I just want to relax and blast through that 45 minute Stage 5 - tough luck for me on the Xbox port (which is why I replaced it with the PS2 version). Being able to finish a game in an hour is irrelevant. Keeping with the Metal Slug example, I've finished MS1 literally over 100 times. I still think it's fun. I've never 1CCd it. I think my best is 3 credits.

This IS a genre born in the arcades. There's no such thing as a credit limit in arcades - as long as you can afford to keep popping coins into the machine, you're playing by the rules. As long as you're not breaking ettiquite by repeatedly continuing when there's a wait for the machine, play all day. Continue 87 times.

And I do think it's hilarious to think of the nameless American reviewer saying DOJ is "too easy, I beat it in 45 minutes".

[BulletMagnet]

Yes, I see your point man. Which is also why I think giving you the option would really help this. Those people could credit feed whenever they wish, but then whenever they're ready they can play it properly or 1CC the game, or whatever.

Well, they already have that option to begin with; once they're "ready," they just stop using continues or whatnot. They just need the right mindset.

[IlMrm]

All these talks about cheating bought back an old memory. I remembered playing Strikers Plus, and at the 1-6 midboss(the tank on the track) I stayed on top of it(safe spot). Some onlooker said to his friend "that's borderline cheating". Too bad the 1-6 boss was coming up, or I would've lectured him a little.

I sure hope using safe spot in patterns instead of dodging said patterns isn't considered cheating.

SEE,see...I'm a better player than you are, as I've never needed a safe spot for the stage 6 mid boss.
I just would go head on but, slightly to the side.(off center to middle)

Maybe one day I'll try your safe spot idea out...I'll probably die trying though...would you be able to kill the rail tank this way? Or did you let him slip by?

Just gotta make sure you take out the two structures right before, other wise the big pink bullets they shoot up can threaten you. The rail tank will be destroyed, and you can take a sip of soda while you wait.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Bah, everyone please quit whining about 1CC and limited credits. Do I like shmups any less because I'm never going to finish DOJ on one credit? Hell no. So give me my credits! You don't want 'em, play on one credit. Want another way to keep up with multiple credits? Get a handful of coins (one for each credit you want) and "pay" one of them each time you continue.

It's insanity to make a limited credit game in this genre. You already have a small enough fanbase as it is, and you just alienate a fraction of that fanbase by making a game harder by reducing the level of credits. I sincerely doubt more than 1% of even fans of the genre can 1CC most modern Cave and Psikyo stuff. Insisting for less credits is akin to giving Resident Evil players access to no weapons except the knife. Crazy hardcore players can finish the game that way, and it serves as somewhat of a badge of honor (just like a 1CC), but I wouldn't want EVERYONE to have to play the game that way. Those RE players COULD have picked up a handgun, but they are free not to - just like we are free to not utilize continues.

Some people don't have the time or desire to memorize every game they play. I'd rather play a variety of games and not be uber-1CC godlike on any of them. I don't see the fun in MEMORIZING for hours and hours, and then repeating again and again. If I want to engage myself in a repetitive memorizing activity, I'll do something more useful like learn a foreign language. When I'm playing a game Id rather have fun.

That's not to say I won't improve - if it takes me 20 credits to finish a game the first time, then 18, then 14, then 8... I'm still improving and learning more about the game. I can always go for score. I'd rather add credits so I can enjoy seeing more scenery than the first few levels every time I play the game. It strikes me as pointless to quit when I have to continue on stage 4. I'll just keep playing the game and try to do even better next time. Do you ever see an Olympic hurdler start running, clip the first hurdle, then give up and start over? Hell no. Keep going, acknowledge your mistake, and hopefully do better next time with your newfound knowledge.

Also, I think Metal Slug 3 on Xbox was a disaster - I see it almost as a censoring of the original game. Sometimes I want to hunker down and play on one credit. But sometimes I just want to relax and blast through that 45 minute Stage 5 - tough luck for me on the Xbox port (which is why I replaced it with the PS2 version). Being able to finish a game in an hour is irrelevant. Keeping with the Metal Slug example, I've finished MS1 literally over 100 times. I still think it's fun. I've never 1CCd it. I think my best is 3 credits.

This IS a genre born in the arcades. There's no such thing as a credit limit in arcades - as long as you can afford to keep popping coins into the machine, you're playing by the rules. As long as you're not breaking ettiquite by repeatedly continuing when there's a wait for the machine, play all day. Continue 87 times.

And I do think it's hilarious to think of the nameless American reviewer saying DOJ is "too easy, I beat it in 45 minutes".

Pleas don't bring the olympics into this debate. It can't and never will compare...well, unless you're talking about the "Special Olympics".

Also, more people have 1CC Cave and Psikyo games than you might think.
All in all, credits don't bother me, because I RARELY use em.
If I had to vote though, I'd vote for 3 or 4 continues like back in the 16-Bit console days. Free play is simply too much. The player, any player, even some dumbass mainstreamer, should "earn the game". Not walk right through it, like most modern game reviewers do today.

[BAD]

Self control!!
How hard is it to keep track of one credit anyway!?

Exactly.

[chtimi-CLA]

i love infinite continues, and i don't like even having to unlock them.
in fact when i get a new shmup the first thing i do is credit-feed it to the end, i
want to know what to expect (i also don't mind spoilers generally).
i start playing with one credit only after a few days of credit-feeding, and when i'm not doing good i like to credit-feed.

there are shmups that i never played with 1credit. obviously this is not an accomplishment, but i had much fun feeding radiant on very hard, i would never have had the kind of patience to actually learn to combo it anyway.

anyway, when you use 2 credits, you could as well go on and use 1534454.

[Acid King]

I don't think it's so much self control, and I'm not trying to make a HUGE deal out of it, sorry I didn't mean to give that impression.

Of course it will make a difference to have the option, those people who like to play through with a limited number of credits won't have to worry about counting or trying to continue, the game will just end.

These are arcade games, playing with limited credit is a major point of the fun. It's the reason why you try hard to beat the games in the first place. Imagine playing arcades with unlimited credit?

Or any type of game? You wouldn't try nearly as hard.

Are you nutty man? Could you imagine playing any modern 3d game without infinite chances at continuing? Grand Theft Auto, all role playing games, basically every first person shooter, racing game, etc etc would be impossible without infinite chances to continue. As for arcade games, shooting games (light gun and scrolling shooters) are the ONLY games where credit feeding helps you. Fighting games still require a load of skill ,even if you use a thousand continues you still need enough skill to finish the boss. You can't just continue, tap the bomb button three times, die, repeat to win.

I concur with neojima. I prefer games with infinite continues because it gives me a choice as to how I want to play.

[DJ Incompetent]

from "I have no self control Thread B"


When given a choice, I prefer the more correctly spelled thread title.

...aaand I'm a jerkdick.



Anyway, infinite credits. I don't mind them as impulse practice tools. But by-default every shmup should come with a yes/no question in the introduction.

"Are you a game reviewer?"

> Yes
. . . . . . .No

Upon answering Yes, the game locks all options of a continue button. For-ev-errr!


I would seriously like the ability to input my initials after my first credit fail and still have the continue option of a blank score so every 1 credit run can be documented.

I know some people say if you don't like it, you should just simply end the game yourself when you feel you've used up enough credit. But that doesn't work for me..... What, I manage to get halfway through a game, and after all that.... You seriously think I'm about to force "myself" to turn off the power and end the game, "myself", and start all over. Knowning full well I could just "easily" continue..... Where's the fun in that?

This really ruins the game for me because I have a hard time not just hitting the continue button. Really It makes the game feel really pointless because I know sure as hell I probably won't 1CC the thing.

Why are so many Americans are in debt?
Ya see, it's shit like that. ^^

</completely unnecessary broad out-of-proportion paintbrushing>

[Pixel_Outlaw]

...aaand I'm a jerkdick.

Notice how everyone else has shown me respect in the so called B thread. I asked for it to be locked. The matter is over.

[DJ Incompetent]

...aaand I'm a jerkdick.

Notice how everyone else has shown me respect in the so called B thread. I asked for it to be locked. The matter is over.

You're fine. No worries. Takin' light-hearted stabs is all.

-Because the topic is goofy. C'mon. You know this.

[shoe-sama]

Hey guys lol I credit feed um how come I can't get into loop 2 of DDP rofl