The Best Shmup Ever Made?

[Necronopticous]

Instead of having the option, why not abandon the whole loop idea?

Because playing the same game over again with suicide bullets equals twice the quality, man!

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

er, Gradius V

[jpj]

Instead of having the option, why not abandon the whole loop idea?

Because playing the same game over again with suicide bullets equals twice the quality, man!

i think it's fair to say that having different modes (with sometimes different scoring systems) is harder to do for cave than a 2-loop game.

i don't have a problem with cave's 2-loop stuff, but that's probably because i play games that were made some time in the last ten years. but yeah, it would be nice to have an option to practice from the start of 2-1 in some games, ala MMP. but i guess it wouldn't really work in games where you have variable rank, like doj

[DEL]

lilmanjs wrote;

I must say I really find viper phase 1 to be the best I've ever played. I never seem to get bored with that game.

^That's odd.
--------

Anyway, bd.

[ali_710]

well, im new to shmups. now im playing raiden and r-types which both are really good. thinking about shienryu and sonic wings special.

[beam]

Battle Garegga

[PROMETHEUS]

Instead of having the option, why not abandon the whole loop idea?

But then games tend to be not so challenging for good players, since making it too hard for beginners is never a good idea (when you're not making modes).

[Necronopticous]

making it too hard for beginners is never a good idea (when you're not making modes).

Are you trying to say DOJ wasn't a good idea? ;]

[DMC]

Instead of having the option, why not abandon the whole loop idea?

But then games tend to be not so challenging for good players, since making it too hard for beginners is never a good idea (when you're not making modes).

But how happy are the "good players" about playing the easy loop every time they aim for a record? Weren't arcade games supposed to be short? And I thought risk-rewarding scoring systems would solve this problem: Make the good players take more risks to get a better score. Just adding loops seems like a lazy attempt at increasing the replay value of a game. But tbh I don't have insight in 2nd loops in cave games, so maybe I should ask what typical difference between loops are in their games ?

[PROMETHEUS]

making it too hard for beginners is never a good idea (when you're not making modes).

Are you trying to say DOJ wasn't a good idea? ;]

ok, DOJ is not the easiest ever for a beginner, but I don't think the first loop is unplayable for beginners, it's not that hard, and I'm sure it gets really easy for good players.

But how happy are the "good players" about playing the easy loop every time they aim for a record? Weren't arcade games supposed to be short? And I thought risk-rewarding scoring systems would solve this problem: Make the good players take more risks to get a better score. Just adding loops seems like a lazy attempt at increasing the replay value of a game. But tbh I don't have insight in 2nd loops in cave games, so maybe I should ask what typical difference between loops are in their games ?

That's what I'm saying, it's fucking, fucking tedious and boring to play the easy loop every time. Risk rewarding scoring system... I don't know man, I haven't seen a good example where it was enough to keep the game interesting all the way.

[jpj]

ok, DOJ is not the easiest ever for a beginner, but I don't think the first loop is unplayable for beginners, it's not that hard, and I'm sure it gets really easy for good players.

1st loop of doj gets more difficult the better you score. ie more bullets, and faster bullets.

even clover-TAC makes mistakes on the first loop (and he can 2-ALL it) shown on the ps2's simulation mode

you cannot generalise every single looping game with dodonpachi

[Plasmo]

ok, DOJ is not the easiest ever for a beginner, but I don't think the first loop is unplayable for beginners, it's not that hard, and I'm sure it gets really easy for good players.

I'm quite sure the first loop indeed is unplayable for beginners.
Or maybe I'm wrong?

The loop question:
I thought Batsugun solved the problem even having more than 1 loop really well. Just throw different kind of suicide bullets at the player and reduce the length of the loop after every cleared loop (+no infinite loops)
The game stays enjoyable throughout all the loops.

[trivial]

Galaga.

Gaplus/Titanion will annihilate you
nice Space Fury avatar though

[PROMETHEUS]

But the fact that clover-tac makes mistakes in the first loop of DOJ doesn't mean it's not easy. From the way KO does some things in the DDP replay, I can tell that he can miss in the first loop sometimes, probably in many different places, and yet I'm sure he's bored to death when he plays it. Also, even when a loop has some hard parts, it's still terrible to play through when 80% of it is easy, or even just 50%.

But I agree I can't generalise every single looping games with DDP. It's just that I hate a longer challenge including repetition of a loop with dilated difficulty, because I'm getting enough repetition with having to try many times already, and because dilated difficulty means if I can do the hardest parts, the easiest parts will be a waste of time, so it's best to completely remove them from the game or make them as short as possible => 1 loop generally better than 2 loops, imo.

[InTheFlatField]

I know it's stereotypical, but I choose Ikaruga. It's a wonder of design with a very simple idea that is quite accessible, but the idea ends up being used very cleverly throughout the game and it has an incredibly deep scoring system. It is beautiful, polished, and one of the few recent success stories of the shmup genre.

[jpj]

But the fact that clover-tac makes mistakes in the first loop of DOJ doesn't mean it's not easy.

no disrespect, but it's posts like this where i think you can't have played doj. at least not to any degree. what i said would make more sense if you actually watch the replay for yourself. along with unintentional deaths, he even tries to lower the rank during the stage 2 boss fight by emptying his bomb stock; as well as choosing B-L in the first place because of the amount of bombs he can carry.

i understand you're point though but i don't think it really applies to doj, or ketsui, or progear.

it probably does to donpachi though

[third_strike]

I'm quite sure the first loop indeed is unplayable for beginners.

And I'm quite sure the first loop indeed is unplayable for me.
Cool!

[drboom]

Late to the topic, but I have to vote for Ketsui - so agressive, so addictive, so punishing and soooooo rewarding. Even the sound of your ship exploding when you die is satisfying - kind of like a slap to the face, but from someone you love.

[RackGaki]

Ikaruga.

Awesome scoring system that's both fun for beginners and difficult to master for many experts. Chaining is simple and intuitive. The polarity differences on the three difficulty levels changes the experience for anyone. Among the most pleasing aesthetics of any shoot 'em up.

Even if you tire of chaining, you can simply eat dots.

[Aquas]

Star Fox and Star Fox 64 =)

Actually, I'll just have to go with Raiden Fighters Jet, the multiple ships (like 16 of 'em?) allows a lot of replayability, it's probably my favorite part about the game, scoring aside. The bombing is really useful and intense and no other shmup has gotten my adrenaline going as much. Mushihimesama is good and all, but scoring in that is like getting sushi high or something (LOL!) just not the same as gritty ole Raiden.

[henry dark]

I don't think the first stage is unplayable for beginners

All better now.

[undamned]

I know it's cliche, but DDP.

Dodonpachi.

DDP

Yes, indeed.
-ud

[TLB]

Shikigami no Shiro (the fist) is the best game ever!
Cool!

Actually, third strike, I'm finding myself agreeing with you O.o I just figured out how to kill and score the Stage 2-3 Super Nazi boss without taking a hit, and I'm just LOVING it, even if it's the Mobile Light Force 2 version. "Hang it up, sucka!"
Cool!

[Enhasa]

The very concept of loops is utterly terrible. If you really really need that sort of thing, make it an extra mode. I don't see any benefit in loops at all, but then again, there are people out there that argue for benefits in unskippable cutscenes too.

[ROBOTRON]

Zanac

[PROMETHEUS]

But the fact that clover-tac makes mistakes in the first loop of DOJ doesn't mean it's not easy.

no disrespect, but it's posts like this where i think you can't have played doj. at least not to any degree. what i said would make more sense if you actually watch the replay for yourself. along with unintentional deaths, he even tries to lower the rank during the stage 2 boss fight by emptying his bomb stock; as well as choosing B-L in the first place because of the amount of bombs he can carry.

I have played DOJ a couple of times and made it to stage 4 nearly each time. I think for a beginner things are too hard starting from the 1-2 boss to survive without bombing and without memorization, but seeing the replay I have here I think a noob can still do ok-ish up to 1-5 with memorization and some survival plans (bombing some hard places). Even more so because the rank would then be lower than in the video I got here so I guess it's really do-able. So if I'm not wrong, I would consider the first loop to be playable for beginners yes. I mean, we really need to consider the difference between with or without memorization, of course any STG is impossible without memorization, but they're meant to be known by heart.

The clover-tac replay you're talking about, is it a survival run that he played while discovering the game ? Or is it a failed scoring run ? I'd kind of like to see it regardless, seeing a pro fail is good :p

[Gungriffon Geona]

Rayforce and Raystorm. Rayforce even more for simply having brilliant use of 2D graphical prowess.

Also Batrider for being a huge influence on how I now look at game design. the game just oozes style and fun atmosphere. I'm absolutely terrible at it, but damn if it's not fun to just screw around in.

[Elixir]

rabu rabu mahou rainbow

[jpj]

But the fact that clover-tac makes mistakes in the first loop of DOJ doesn't mean it's not easy.

no disrespect, but it's posts like this where i think you can't have played doj. at least not to any degree. what i said would make more sense if you actually watch the replay for yourself. along with unintentional deaths, he even tries to lower the rank during the stage 2 boss fight by emptying his bomb stock; as well as choosing B-L in the first place because of the amount of bombs he can carry.

I have played DOJ a couple of times and made it to stage 4 nearly each time. I think for a beginner things are too hard starting from the 1-2 boss to survive without bombing and without memorization, but seeing the replay I have here I think a noob can still do ok-ish up to 1-5 with memorization and some survival plans (bombing some hard places). Even more so because the rank would then be lower than in the video I got here so I guess it's really do-able. So if I'm not wrong, I would consider the first loop to be playable for beginners yes. I mean, we really need to consider the difference between with or without memorization, of course any STG is impossible without memorization, but they're meant to be known by heart.

The clover-tac replay you're talking about, is it a survival run that he played while discovering the game ? Or is it a failed scoring run ? I'd kind of like to see it regardless, seeing a pro fail is good :p

i would say the first-loop is do-able for someone who plays a lot of shooters. but i wouldn't say that it ever becomes boring, like how you describe the first loop of DDP, even for a good player. i don't know where i am on our doj table here, maybe 5th place, but i think the others above me would agree.

the replay is a failed scoring run lots of mistakes, particularly on the first loop where the chaining time is stricter. i think he finishes on 1.1bill whilst LAOS finishes on 1.9bill and it's not just the 800 mill score difference. you can see just how much better LAOS is when you watch one after the other. i don't think they are on youtube or super-play sadly. the A-Exy replay is on a dvd bundled with the ps2 version; while the B-L replay is viewable on the game disc itself. if you can, check it out

[Frederik]

Seriously, though I haven't played the newer Cave output (Ibara is sitting on my shelf waiting for me to get with the program and fix my cab) I think Batrider sets the bar so high it'd be very hard to top. It's not so absurdly over the top that it scares off newbies and it's got a shitload of character and style in its graphics, art and character design. There's plenty of different ways to approach the game, be it the three premade teams, as one of 4 versions of the 18 characters or with a custom team, not to mention the fact that it's just as good as a straight forward fuck-shit-up style shooter as it is a technical high score game. There's just so much variety in the game that I think even games with more technical and finely tuned scoring systems (DOJ, Ikaruga) come out behind. Plus, the fact that you don't have to fuck around with a forced scoring gimmick (Bakraid) or fussy rank management (Garegga) puts it on the top of Raizing's output.

Since Cave made the impossible happen (reviving the Yagawa style), I would love to see a Batrider sequel, with similar scoring, another cool Namiki soundtrack, and most important of all 16 new characters Imagine having and Raizing AND Cave all-star cast in it, from DDP and Esprade and Ketsui and Mushi and Ibara and MMP and Pink Sweets and... I better stop here before I need to change my pants. I wouldn´t even mind if the cast wasn´t balanced at all (it isn´t in Batrider either).

Oh, and lots of hidden bosses, too. I mean, we had DDP bosses in DFK and they included Pink Sweets bosses in MMP for the latest Cave Matsuri , so it´s not the most unlikely thing ever.