XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Bax]

I noticed the discussion about getting better picture from using the HDMI input instead of component/D-Terminal, so I picked up this component to HDMI converter and I have to say it looks to be quite an improvement.

Anyway, there is a problem getting audio from the HDMI input on the Mini (FW 1.10) using the converter. (I can work around it by using the separate RCA inputs and enable those for HDMI 1 in the Mini settings so it's not a big deal but still).

If I connect the converter HDMI cable straight to the TV there's audio.
If I connect a different source like a PS3 to the Mini HDMI there's audio.

Using different HDMI cables or different consoles as source didn't help. Any ideas? I'm thinking this is a incompatibility issue that hopefully can be fixed on the Mini FW.

Also, the Mini input status for this converter says: 8 bit RGB color. 48khz 2ch PCM. HDCP off.

[Yamato]

I noticed the discussion about getting better picture from using the HDMI input instead of component/D-Terminal, so I picked up this component to HDMI converter and I have to say it looks to be quite an improvement.

Which systems / games did you test? What exactly looked better to you?

In the last 2 days I took the time and compared several Wii titles using different signal routing options (YUV direct to my HX855 TV, YUV to XRGB, YUV converted to HDMI and a) direct to my TV or b) to XRGB HDMI input).

It really depends on the kind of game you play, but from my experiences the XRGB HDMI input has OVERALL the worst picture of them all (again, tested only with the Wii's 480p picture!). Don't get me wrong, it looked great with Mario Galaxy when I had tested it for the 1st time, but later with HotD2&3 Return and other titles I now can say that the XRGB-mini has a big problem with "ghost" contours on the HDMI inputs. They seem to appear when there are bright lines or objects on a more dark background. Like white text on a dark blue background for example. It's also clearly visible next to Mii characters' noses (black line on a light-skinned face) and the lately mentioned face of the HotD2 victim happened to be also on a more dark background. The picture looks kind of dirty in those situations.

Also the picture is more blurry on the XRGB HDMI inputs, which doesn't fit 3D titles in general (Mario Galaxy was good for example, but there are titles with less smoothed graphics which can look a little bit washed out, but I guess it depends more on your personal taste here).

Fudoh recently stated that the sampling on the horizontal is off when the XRGB scales a 480p picture. Maybe I'm wrong, but now I think I have an idea what you meant, Fudoh. It's barely visible but I noticed that sometimes the letters of a text seem to merge a little bit into another (I was not able to reduce this with the scaling engine). Actually this "merging" didn't happen when I connect the Wii directly to my HX855 television (component or HDMI).

But on the other hand, the TV's HDMI input seems to somehow show similar "ghost" contours (like described above) when you look VERY, VERY close to the picture. This is actually more visible on the TV's component input. The edges are just a little bit less defined via direct component too, so I'll avoid the component input.

So as a personal conclusion for the Wii system I have to say that it is a question of going either XRGB component input or HDMI direct to TV (via YUV converted to HDMI). A direct HDMI connection still looks very similar on my Sony HX855 television to me. Now that I have seen those "merging letter" I think that the Sony is overall doing a better job with upscaling 480p pictures. But on the other hand there are those mentioned "ghost contours", which are still barely visible when you look very close. Maybe I will install a simple YUV switch with 2 outputs (1st to HDMI/TV for 480p / 2nd to XRGB component for 480i/240p). Or use an Extron crosspoint instead

Next I will test my classic Xbox via component, let's see how it goes there

[Galgomite]

I haven't tried on a Sony HD CRT, but I did on another HD tube last a year ago or so. Looks quite good, but you have to increase the scanline density quite a bit.

This is huge thank you! I have a really nice HD gaming TV but it's upstairs in the living room, where things are supposed to look nice...

[TheDrifter363]

I know crts are a naturally analog medium so won't progressive content be lost on them. Does the mini support interlaced display resolutions like 1080i?

The Mini does support 1080i output, yes. But why wouldn't 720p work on a CRT (that supports it) ? There have been ED tubes which only supported 480p and 1080i (540p), but there also have been HD tubes which support 720p just fine. Dont' forget that 1080i equals D3, while 720p is D4, not the other way around.

Sorry I seemed to think that crts could only display interlaced signals and any progressive signal would get converted to interlaced. In fact crts only convert digital to analog if they have the option to accept digital signals. This link corrected me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

I read that it said that crt computer monitors used progressive scan, this led me to believe that progressive and interlaced are independent of analog or digital signals.

[TheDrifter363]

So I tried a different power supply and I'm still getting those wavy lines of interference/noise on a pure black screen. Maybe this is normal, I wish I had another mini to test out to make sure mine isn't defective. Can anyone help out? It seems to be more pronounced if you increase the brightness on the tv.

[Ed Oscuro]

Sorry I seemed to think that crts could only display interlaced signals and any progressive signal would get converted to interlaced.

Yeah, that's not true.

In fact crts only convert digital to analog if they have the option to accept digital signals. This link corrected me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

I read that it said that crt computer monitors used progressive scan, this led me to believe that progressive and interlaced are independent of analog or digital signals.

You obviously need to know if your signal is digital or analog (simple rule of thumb - if HDMI, it's digital; if component cables, it's analog); but usually, as long as you have an appropriate plug for your display device, the magic of analog / digital and digital / analog conversion (if it is being used in the set) is hidden from you. There are CRT displays that support a fully digital signal, but of course, as you can see, it will eventually have to be converted to analog for display, but this is hidden from you in pretty much the same way that handling of the components of various signals in consumer formats (composite, s-video, component) is hidden.

Framemeister and a modern flat panel TV with HDMI is allowing you to have an interference-free digital connection at all points.
Framemeister to a late-model CRT with an HDMI input will end up going through some internal digital / analog processing, but this should also be pretty much transparent. However on such sets the other inputs, and the presence of any other features like 100Hz (which buffers an image for one frame, I think that this technique was only in Europe though) will be important to know as well.

But the simple way of putting it is this: The statement of resolution is independent from whether that resolution is being carried digitally or via an analog signal. There were some 720p CRT TVs (very rare models) and there were somewhat more 1080i CRTs, and there are also some 720p LCDs and a huge variety of 1080p LCD screens. I think 1080p was essentially unknown on CRT TVs because of the huge voltages required.

Likewise, digital displays, especially LCDs, are rather ill-suited for displaying interlaced formats, but again this is usually hidden well enough from us. Native resolution is usually the issue.

[TheDrifter363]

But crts are analog display devices. Meaning that they convert all signals to analog, if the input signal is analog then no conversion will take place; however, if the input signal is digital then it will convert that to analog. It seems kind of reduntant to use a xrgb mini with a crt since first you feed it an analog signal, which gets converted to digital, then the digital input gets converted to analog by the crt. Wouldn't it be more convenient to just go analog all the way for crts?

[Ed Oscuro]

Wouldn't it be more convenient to just go analog all the way for crts?

I read your previous post a bit hastily when writing a response, so I apologize for making it look as if you had written something wrong.

But you have moved past that and gotten into a more interesting topic, which is "what's the best format to use?"

In some cases, it might be down to a matter of testing what works best with your particular equipment. It's possible that if you have a system and display that both support digital and analog signal formats that one will outperform the other, while using a different display will give a different result. The bottom line is that this must be tested.

For example, it's well-known that on many LCD panel displays / TVs with a PC-format VGA connector (DB-15) that there is less input lag on that connector than on other connectors, for mysterious reasons (signal processing, both of analog -> digital systems AND fully digital systems, is often highly proprietary and not fully explained to the public).

On the other hand, let's say you have a CRT television with an HDMI input (these are pretty rare though), and it supports 720p. Does it really make sense to say that we need to buy analog cables for a PS3 instead of using a readily available HDMI cable? You can test for which is better, of course, but what is "best" (and there are many ways of judging that, as you know: input lag, visual quality being two of them - they don't necessarily go hand-in-hand either) is not necessarily the same as what is "convenient."

Another reason why "analog all the way" might not make sense is that it's possible for analog connections to have interference issues. That said, on a VGA PC cable, you have to go to extreme resolutions (above 1920x1200) and lengths before you start to see really notable issues with signal quality - I'm not exactly sure how TV analog connections fare, but we do have many, many threads here dealing with interference on analog cables (particularly when audio wires are carried alongside the video wires).

In summary, the most convenient thing is just to use whatever connections your display offers.
In more detail, you can always test these things out. There's no universally true rule for "best" or "most convenient" however, due to implementations differing.

[Smashbro29]

I had a weird idea for the mini, what if there was a way to upload a picture into the firmware to use rather then just seeing black? For example say I wanted blue. Could be nice.

Or maybe a color wheel in the menus?

Also what'd be pretty cool, if they could get HDMI passthrough done right.

Also would be cool if it did PS2(that chroma) and 480p better, would it be so hard to bypass the stuff hurting the picture/lag and function like a cheap dongle?

[Bax]

Which systems / games did you test? What exactly looked better to you?

I only tested a handful games on the Wii, GC & Xbox. My initial impression felt a little bit like switching from Limited to Full RGB, but now after tweaking settings I'm not so sure anymore. I'll have to do some more testing before I make up my mind. I'm gonna look for ghosting too.

Also the picture is more blurry on the XRGB HDMI inputs, which doesn't fit 3D titles in general (Mario Galaxy was good for example, but there are titles with less smoothed graphics which can look a little bit washed out, but I guess it depends more on your personal taste here).

With this converter I often have to refresh (push HDMI 1 button) the Mini once, after booting the console/game otherwise it was incredible blurry.

[Galgomite]

So I tried a different power supply and I'm still getting those wavy lines of interference/noise on a pure black screen. Maybe this is normal, I wish I had another mini to test out to make sure mine isn't defective. Can anyone help out? It seems to be more pronounced if you increase the brightness on the tv.

One possibility is ground loop noise from your power. If you're connected to an outlet with a three prong plug, try using a three-prong to two-prong adapter.
Good luck!

[austin532]

Hello everyone, I recently bought a XRGB-mini so I'm still new to all of this. I have a couple of concerning questions:

1) After about 30-40 min. the Mini will sometimes turns off and no lights are shown on the front. It doesn't come back on if you press Power button either. The only way to fix this is to unplug it and plug in back in. I'm not sure what is causing this. It seems to happen more often when the Mini is set to a higher resolution. Could this be a power supply or overheating issue? I'm using the one supplied with the unit and I live in the US. It's also plugged into a surge protector so I'm not sure if that could be causing the problem as well?

2) I've tried messing around a bit with the Mini but just can't seem to get that high resolution silky smooth emulator like quality for PS1, PS2, XBOX, and Gamecube games that every one else gets. I've even tried the recommended settings but still no luck. I would appreciate any advice to get those 4 systems up to emulator quality.

[keropi]

getting a framemeister soon and I was wondering if there is a diagram for the stock rgb cable to convert it to work with EU scart cables...
gonna backtrack the thread for more info but it will take quite some time

[TheDrifter363]

This may be of some help:

http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id= ... _connector

http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id= ... ese_rgb-21

[keropi]

^ thanks, will get the pinout from there and update when the unit arrives

[Galgomite]

Hello everyone, I recently bought a XRGB-mini so I'm still new to all of this. I have a couple of concerning questions:

1) After about 30-40 min. the Mini will sometimes turns off and no lights are shown on the front. It doesn't come back on if you press Power button either. The only way to fix this is to unplug it and plug in back in. I'm not sure what is causing this. It seems to happen more often when the Mini is set to a higher resolution. Could this be a power supply or overheating issue? I'm using the one supplied with the unit and I live in the US. It's also plugged into a surge protector so I'm not sure if that could be causing the problem as well?

2) I've tried messing around a bit with the Mini but just can't seem to get that high resolution silky smooth emulator like quality for PS1, PS2, XBOX, and Gamecube games that every one else gets. I've even tried the recommended settings but still no luck. I would appreciate any advice to get those 4 systems up to emulator quality.

Austin532,

1) If you're still inside your return window I think you should return or exchange ASAP. It could be lots of things but if it's hardware overheating, there will be no easy fix. I've had mine powered on for weeks (maybe longer) with no issues so this is not normal.

2) You probably know this but you must use SCART or component (red/green/blue) cables for the Mini to look truly good, otherwise it's just a solid way to reduce lag going into your HDTV. I wouldn't recommend using it with consoles that can output 480p (Gamecube, Xbox) because most TVs can handle progressive signals well already.

[Yamato]

I finally tested the Xbox Classic

First thing I noticed: The picture looks kind of blocky when connected directly via YUV to my HX855 TV. It's like setting the XRGB's scaling engine to 5/5 when 6/5 would be the correct setting. So just avoid that

Via YUV to XRGB-Mini I could finally see what Fudoh meant, when he wrote that there are weird false contours on most vertical edges. I tested it with OutRun Coast2Coast. Fudoh recommended to look for the Ferrari brandmark in the menu screen and yes, it was clearly visible that the Mini produced a false contour there.

So I testet the same thing with my Ligawo YUV-to-HDMI transcoder (direct TV connection) and the picture was indeed WAY better!
The contours were almost perfect, so the picture looked very clean and crisp. This is the best 480p picture I can get from my classic Xbox. So I will only use the Framemeister for "scanline-titles" from certain classic compilations (like Capcom Classics) from now on.

With a YUV-to-HDMI-to-Framemeister connection the picture actually got worse. There were these "ghost contours" again (watch the OutRun2 palm trees on the first track for example, really disgusting...). I can not imagine why anyone would use the XRGB HDMI inputs for those systems anymore. I will just use them as additional HDMI inputs via HDMI_passthrough from now on

It's interesting, but now that I saw the optimized Xbox1 480p picture, I can see the false XRGB 480p component-scaling on the Wii system too. I just didn't notice, know what to look for or concentrated to much on other aspects... So from now on I will use a direct HDMI connection for every 480p component source.

Dreamcast is a different thing though. I use it on the XRGB front RGB input with a custom VGA-to-RGBs cable. The 480p scaling isn't off here like it is on the component input. Can anyone confirm this with a PS2 480p picture too? I don't have a PS2 here.

Maybe I will add a VGA to YUV transcoder for Dreamcast to my setup in the near future, so I can reduce the lag a bit more. But playing Dreamcast on the XRGB's front input is a descent solution too if you don't have a dedicated VGA input on your TV.

[domoe]

The cable you linked to uses composite video for sync. However, this should not be a problem on the mini. Try another console and if you still don't get a picture could be a faulty mini-din adapter.

It turned out to be a faulty mini-din adapter. I have received a new one and now everything works perfectly.

[8bitpower]

Hi everyone,

May I have your help? I am having some problems with my framemeister & a NTSC JP Saturn. I'm using the RGB input with the retrogamingcables European SCART adapter. The thing is that I am experiencing continual signal losses every x minutes (the screen becomes black for a few seconds). Is there a way to fix this? It's quite annoying and affects to gameplay

Thank you in advance!

PS: My framemeister firmware is updated to Rev.1.10

[eightbitminiboss]

Hi everyone,

May I have your help? I am having some problems with my framemeister & a NTSC JP Saturn. I'm using the RGB input with the retrogamingcables European SCART adapter. The thing is that I am experiencing continual signal losses every x minutes (the screen becomes black for a few seconds). Is there a way to fix this? It's quite annoying and affects to gameplay

Thank you in advance!

PS: My framemeister firmware is updated to Rev.1.10

Have you already tried adjusting Sync Level on the mini?

[8bitpower]

Hi everyone,

May I have your help? I am having some problems with my framemeister & a NTSC JP Saturn. I'm using the RGB input with the retrogamingcables European SCART adapter. The thing is that I am experiencing continual signal losses every x minutes (the screen becomes black for a few seconds). Is there a way to fix this? It's quite annoying and affects to gameplay

Thank you in advance!

PS: My framemeister firmware is updated to Rev.1.10

Have you already tried adjusting Sync Level on the mini?

No, so far I haven't, but I will. Should I enter a lower or a higher value?

Thank you for the advice.

[EmperorZelos]

Hi everyone,

May I have your help? I am having some problems with my framemeister & a NTSC JP Saturn. I'm using the RGB input with the retrogamingcables European SCART adapter. The thing is that I am experiencing continual signal losses every x minutes (the screen becomes black for a few seconds). Is there a way to fix this? It's quite annoying and affects to gameplay

Thank you in advance!

PS: My framemeister firmware is updated to Rev.1.10

Have you already tried adjusting Sync Level on the mini?

No, so far I haven't, but I will. Should I enter a lower or a higher value?

Thank you for the advice.

lower it and does it flip things on the TV as if the resolution is changing?

[8bitpower]

Alright, I will try to lower it. Thank you!

Regarding the question: No, I haven't noticed anything like that. Everything works fine except for the continual signal losses.

[8bitpower]

By the way, is it possible to add scanlines to a 480i source? For example, a PS2 (RGB input) running Street Fighter III 3rd Strike.

[pyrotek85]

By the way, is it possible to add scanlines to a 480i source? For example, a PS2 (RGB input) running Street Fighter III 3rd Strike.

Yes, though last I checked they might not look right at 1080p (not sure if the bug has been fixed). If so you'd want to output at 720p. But any source that it's scaling up you should be able to add scan lines too.

[chromium]

I fear this thing has been an expensive mistake for me.

Last week bought the Framemeister, D Terminal to component cable, overlay for the remote and a Euro SCART to 8 din.
Component was a waste of time, everything looks better just using my TVs built-in scaler. RGB is where this thing shines I thought.

Today my EuroSCART cable arrived so I excitedly tried RGB for the first time. First up was my French RGB modded N64. I am getting sync issues and 3 evenly spaced scanlines that are closer together than all the others so look like 3 thick lines. (See below)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8t6gnrb8igz8m ... 0%20pm.jpg

This only seems to be happening on NTSC games. I purposely bought a EuroSCART cable with no sync stripper because everything I have read says you don't need it.

Next up I thought I'd try my PSX and I don't even get anything on the screen at all it just goes black

$450 AUD later I'm beginning to wonder what I've done. I should have just stuck with my Sony PVM, no issues with any of these consoles there.

Edit: So, I pretty much sorted out all of my issues the day after I made this post

Fixed the N64 sync by changing sync level to 21 from 9.
Fixed the N64 scanline issues by increasing v_width by 1.
PSX just suddenly started working. I'm guessing it's because I had the sync level on 21.

So very happy now, it looks great

Since then I have tried my SNES, which worked great.
My Dreamcast, using a VGA box and VGA to SCART adapter, also looking great. Was going to get a Kenzai and Kuro, but not sure I need one.
Also tried my Xbox 360 using RGB just for fun, which looked cool with scanlines, but HDMI is definitely the way to go for that.

[moonlightaffair]

Does anyone know where/if I can get a USA power supply that will work with XRGB-Mini/Framemeister?

These are both 3a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5Volt-3Amp-5V-3 ... 2333a41d18

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Volt-3-Amp-Po ... 35ce5ca01b

I heard that anything less than 2.3a will possibly damage it. But what if the amperage is too high? It's a .7 difference.

I would just adapt this power supply that is known to work, but they won't ship to the USA:

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB ... AMEMEISTER
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005 ... UTF8&psc=1

Any ideas?

[broken harbour]

^ I was having problems until I discovered the Sync Level adjustment. It's a sneaky thing if you don't know about it.

[moonlightaffair]

I'm going to be connecting...

RGB modded NES >
euro-SCART RGB cable wired for sync-on-composite >
euro-SCART-to-8pinDIN (with sync stripper) >
[http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/mico ... ipper.html
or
euro-SCART-to-8pinDIN (without sync stripper) >
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/europe ... -sale.html
XRGB-Mini >
HDMI >
Plasma (put it on JustScan an GAME MODE?)

1) Which adapter can I use, the one with or without sync stripper? Can I use either?
2) Is there any reason to throw an SLG3000 into the mix or can the Mini give me scanlines?...I read it only likes them at 720p...
3) Will these settings work alright?

for 240p sources
IMAGE_MODE = PICTURE
AUTO_SCALER = GAME
SHARPNESS = 0 or 1 (0 recommended)
Set output resolution to 720p if you want to use scanlines or 1080p if your TV supports it and you DON'T want to use scanlines

Any suggestions for getting my Nintendo lookin' fresh?

[chromium]

Does anyone know where/if I can get a USA power supply that will work with XRGB-Mini/Framemeister?

These are both 3a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5Volt-3Amp-5V-3 ... 2333a41d18

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Volt-3-Amp-Po ... 35ce5ca01b

I heard that anything less than 2.3a will possibly damage it. But what if the amperage is too high? It's a .7 difference.

I would just adapt this power supply that is known to work, but they won't ship to the USA:

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB ... AMEMEISTER
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005 ... UTF8&psc=1

Any ideas?

3A will be fine, I'm using a 3A one on mine. Having more amps than required won't be a problem, having less could be.

I'm going to be connecting...

RGB modded NES >
euro-SCART RGB cable wired for sync-on-composite >
euro-SCART-to-8pinDIN (with sync stripper) >
[http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/mico ... ipper.html
or
euro-SCART-to-8pinDIN (without sync stripper) >
http://www.retrogamingcables.com/europe ... -sale.html
XRGB-Mini >
HDMI >
Plasma (put it on JustScan an GAME MODE?)

1) Which adapter can I use, the one with or without sync stripper? Can I use either?
2) Is there any reason to throw an SLG3000 into the mix or can the Mini give me scanlines?...I read it only likes them at 720p...
3) Will these settings work alright?

for 240p sources
IMAGE_MODE = PICTURE
AUTO_SCALER = GAME
SHARPNESS = 0 or 1 (0 recommended)
Set output resolution to 720p if you want to use scanlines or 1080p if your TV supports it and you DON'T want to use scanlines

Any suggestions for getting my Nintendo lookin' fresh?

I got the adapter without the sync stripper. The latest fw doesn't require one. Scanlines won't work properly at 1080p, they are fine at 720p and lower.
Those settings should be fine, that's what I use. They're from the Wiki right?